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Anti-vaxxer cousin. 21:31 - Jan 12 with 2677 viewseastangliaisblue

So an idiotic cousin of mine, who is constantly sharing anti-vaccine nonsense on social media, has finally driven me over the edge.

The latest post she has shared claims the vaccine gives you a high risk of catching HIV. I mean WTF, what is wrong with these people and how can I be related to such feckwits?

The argument got quite personal but feck it she's had it coming.
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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 11:08 - Jan 13 with 412 viewsbournemouthblue

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 10:34 - Jan 13 by Guthrum

Mainly because the real world is too unpleasant - or too dull - for many people to face. Most sublimate that by playing games or losing themselves in TV drama*. But some get drawn into pseudo-realities such as the fantasy worlds built by conspiracy theorists instead. Unfortunately, if they take hold, that can have consequences, such as who gets voted into power and whether public health campaigns work.


* A very long tradition, stretching back to the heroic epics of ancient times.


Social Media has a lot to answer for, it creates echo chambers. It's very algorithms have led to issues like this sadly. Trump probably knows this himself and has played on it for his own ends.

I've been led to believe that Trump was keen to deny the result not because he genuinely believes he won but to simply keep his campaign funding rolling in, that's the rather dark sinister element attached to this.


It's quite clearly there is an envigorated Far-right in the US who don't believe in democracy and will send their followers to death to achieve their aims. It won't be the ring leaders who face the bullets. These are the same people agitating these conspiracy theories and who would happily see the likes of the BBC purged in favour of a more right-wing agenda in the News.

Alcohol is the answer but I can't remember the question!
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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 11:26 - Jan 13 with 391 viewsChurchman

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 11:02 - Jan 13 by bournemouthblue

I have no doubt, the US authorities have the means to purge any issue really

You only have to see the level of response at BLM protests and that to me raises serious questions about political interference potentially, even at Presidential level

The Trump cultists were very organised and clearly planned for it but you do have to question why security was so poor, it looks suspicious to me

I can't believe their intelligence services wouldn't have seen it coming, they are very well resourced?


I’m sure they are well resourced, as shown by what they are doing now. They won’t let it happen again and it looks like the laughing boys carting lectures about and chasing people etc will get 20 years for their trouble. Where will orange man Trump be for them then I wonder?

I think that last Wednesday is something they never thought would happen to them. To the Brits, Far East countries, Eastern Europe and banana republics yes, but not the good ole USA land of the free. They appeared (from CNN!!) paralysed then confused in their response.
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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 11:27 - Jan 13 with 389 viewsfactual_blue

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 11:05 - Jan 13 by Ewan_Oozami

Obviously to discuss set theory...


The paramour he was meeting was probably Lady Constance Malleson. She was the wife of actor Miles Malleson, whose most famous role was probably as the hangman in Kind Hearts And Coronets who was going to retire after hanging the Duke of Chalfont, as he couldn't go back to hanging with ordinary rope after using a silk noose on the Duke.

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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 11:43 - Jan 13 with 369 viewsRyorry

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 23:06 - Jan 12 by Churchman

A good friend of mine is spewing out similar nonsense, but is more into the Bill Gates microchip theory. He doesn’t use Facebook or Twitter, but I’ve long since given up discussing it with him. I tried reason but there is just no point as he won’t change his mind. The irony is that he has the kind of health issues that if he gets C-19 it’ll be goodnight for him. Mad.


I was shocked to find two of my closest friends, who I'd previously thought were intelligent, are absolutely adamant they won't take either vaccine.

They're both early 70s without underlying health conditions, not conspiracy theorists & neither use social media at all, but one, ironically is a health fanatic who makes her own veg/fruit/seed smoothies & takes multiple vit/min supplements (inc. 10,000iu daily of vit D3, which from what I've read is a serious overdose). She maintains her immune system is sufficient protection, tho I've tried as much as I can to point out to her that it will still be insufficient to protect her against a rampaging novel virus.

The other says she's never had any jabs against anything (tho she must have had polio & standard BCG at school). Both say they don't trust either Oxford or Pfizer vaccine not to have side effects. Again have tried to explain that the risk of those are vanishingly small compared with the risk of catching Covid19 & potential consequences of that. My pushing it any more would jeopardise the friendships. Another in our little group of 4 who are close, & same age & health status as them, is a former nurse, & like me a full-on pro-vaxxer.

It's divisive & I think the only way to go, sadly, is simply not to discuss it any more, & that seems to be what's happening without any of us actually saying it out loud.
[Post edited 13 Jan 11:47]

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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 14:18 - Jan 13 with 342 viewsHarry_Palmer

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 11:43 - Jan 13 by Ryorry

I was shocked to find two of my closest friends, who I'd previously thought were intelligent, are absolutely adamant they won't take either vaccine.

They're both early 70s without underlying health conditions, not conspiracy theorists & neither use social media at all, but one, ironically is a health fanatic who makes her own veg/fruit/seed smoothies & takes multiple vit/min supplements (inc. 10,000iu daily of vit D3, which from what I've read is a serious overdose). She maintains her immune system is sufficient protection, tho I've tried as much as I can to point out to her that it will still be insufficient to protect her against a rampaging novel virus.

The other says she's never had any jabs against anything (tho she must have had polio & standard BCG at school). Both say they don't trust either Oxford or Pfizer vaccine not to have side effects. Again have tried to explain that the risk of those are vanishingly small compared with the risk of catching Covid19 & potential consequences of that. My pushing it any more would jeopardise the friendships. Another in our little group of 4 who are close, & same age & health status as them, is a former nurse, & like me a full-on pro-vaxxer.

It's divisive & I think the only way to go, sadly, is simply not to discuss it any more, & that seems to be what's happening without any of us actually saying it out loud.
[Post edited 13 Jan 11:47]


I think sometimes we just have to accept that other people have different views and belief systems and that trying to persuade them otherwise is often futile and a waste of time for all parties. It's often best to just sew some seeds and then move on, which it sounds like you have done. It's also important to remember that taking any medical intervention ( including vaccines ) is a personal choice and should be respected as such. That's why I am personally so uncomfortable with a lot of the attempted coercion and guilt/shaming tactics that are becoming ever more commonplace around this issue ( not suggesting this is what you are doing btw ).

I am coming at this from the other side of the coin of course, my skecpticism regarding vaccines is well documented and I am pretty much hated on here by some because of it. This position however is born out of personal experience along with a not insignificant amount of research ( I have read at least 10 books on the subject, both for and against ). I have seen plenty of data and info in relation to the Covid vaccines that raise reasonable questions that people should be asking if they are doing proper due diligence before taking one but I have refrained from posting here due to the inevitable backlash and upset it will cause, however genuine my intentions.

Based on my own experiences and learning I have formed a certain set of beliefs but that doesn't make me universally right and I have learned over recent months to try and challenge those beliefs as well as accepting that most other people don't share them. Coming at things from a position of 'I am right and they are wrong' seldom ends well for either party in most interactions.

If you have always believed that your two friends were intelligent people then the chances are that they still are, they just have a different viewpoint to you on one particular issue, maybe you can learn from each other on this. I know you are only trying to help them but sometimes you just need to accept and let people stand by their own decisions.

I do tend to agree with you on the Vit D though, 10'000iu seems too high although on the flip side the amount currently recommended by the Government ( 400IU ) is pitifully low. I currently take 4000iu a day and I think that is regarded as about the highest number you can safely take although Dr Fauci in the US reportedly takes 6000iu per day.
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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 14:34 - Jan 13 with 317 viewsSpruceMoose

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 14:18 - Jan 13 by Harry_Palmer

I think sometimes we just have to accept that other people have different views and belief systems and that trying to persuade them otherwise is often futile and a waste of time for all parties. It's often best to just sew some seeds and then move on, which it sounds like you have done. It's also important to remember that taking any medical intervention ( including vaccines ) is a personal choice and should be respected as such. That's why I am personally so uncomfortable with a lot of the attempted coercion and guilt/shaming tactics that are becoming ever more commonplace around this issue ( not suggesting this is what you are doing btw ).

I am coming at this from the other side of the coin of course, my skecpticism regarding vaccines is well documented and I am pretty much hated on here by some because of it. This position however is born out of personal experience along with a not insignificant amount of research ( I have read at least 10 books on the subject, both for and against ). I have seen plenty of data and info in relation to the Covid vaccines that raise reasonable questions that people should be asking if they are doing proper due diligence before taking one but I have refrained from posting here due to the inevitable backlash and upset it will cause, however genuine my intentions.

Based on my own experiences and learning I have formed a certain set of beliefs but that doesn't make me universally right and I have learned over recent months to try and challenge those beliefs as well as accepting that most other people don't share them. Coming at things from a position of 'I am right and they are wrong' seldom ends well for either party in most interactions.

If you have always believed that your two friends were intelligent people then the chances are that they still are, they just have a different viewpoint to you on one particular issue, maybe you can learn from each other on this. I know you are only trying to help them but sometimes you just need to accept and let people stand by their own decisions.

I do tend to agree with you on the Vit D though, 10'000iu seems too high although on the flip side the amount currently recommended by the Government ( 400IU ) is pitifully low. I currently take 4000iu a day and I think that is regarded as about the highest number you can safely take although Dr Fauci in the US reportedly takes 6000iu per day.


10 books?!

Woah.

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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 14:40 - Jan 13 with 303 viewshype313

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 14:18 - Jan 13 by Harry_Palmer

I think sometimes we just have to accept that other people have different views and belief systems and that trying to persuade them otherwise is often futile and a waste of time for all parties. It's often best to just sew some seeds and then move on, which it sounds like you have done. It's also important to remember that taking any medical intervention ( including vaccines ) is a personal choice and should be respected as such. That's why I am personally so uncomfortable with a lot of the attempted coercion and guilt/shaming tactics that are becoming ever more commonplace around this issue ( not suggesting this is what you are doing btw ).

I am coming at this from the other side of the coin of course, my skecpticism regarding vaccines is well documented and I am pretty much hated on here by some because of it. This position however is born out of personal experience along with a not insignificant amount of research ( I have read at least 10 books on the subject, both for and against ). I have seen plenty of data and info in relation to the Covid vaccines that raise reasonable questions that people should be asking if they are doing proper due diligence before taking one but I have refrained from posting here due to the inevitable backlash and upset it will cause, however genuine my intentions.

Based on my own experiences and learning I have formed a certain set of beliefs but that doesn't make me universally right and I have learned over recent months to try and challenge those beliefs as well as accepting that most other people don't share them. Coming at things from a position of 'I am right and they are wrong' seldom ends well for either party in most interactions.

If you have always believed that your two friends were intelligent people then the chances are that they still are, they just have a different viewpoint to you on one particular issue, maybe you can learn from each other on this. I know you are only trying to help them but sometimes you just need to accept and let people stand by their own decisions.

I do tend to agree with you on the Vit D though, 10'000iu seems too high although on the flip side the amount currently recommended by the Government ( 400IU ) is pitifully low. I currently take 4000iu a day and I think that is regarded as about the highest number you can safely take although Dr Fauci in the US reportedly takes 6000iu per day.


Just out of interest, and certainly not wanting to start an argument or to have a dig, why are you Skeptical about Vaccines?

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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 14:46 - Jan 13 with 288 viewsRyorry

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 14:18 - Jan 13 by Harry_Palmer

I think sometimes we just have to accept that other people have different views and belief systems and that trying to persuade them otherwise is often futile and a waste of time for all parties. It's often best to just sew some seeds and then move on, which it sounds like you have done. It's also important to remember that taking any medical intervention ( including vaccines ) is a personal choice and should be respected as such. That's why I am personally so uncomfortable with a lot of the attempted coercion and guilt/shaming tactics that are becoming ever more commonplace around this issue ( not suggesting this is what you are doing btw ).

I am coming at this from the other side of the coin of course, my skecpticism regarding vaccines is well documented and I am pretty much hated on here by some because of it. This position however is born out of personal experience along with a not insignificant amount of research ( I have read at least 10 books on the subject, both for and against ). I have seen plenty of data and info in relation to the Covid vaccines that raise reasonable questions that people should be asking if they are doing proper due diligence before taking one but I have refrained from posting here due to the inevitable backlash and upset it will cause, however genuine my intentions.

Based on my own experiences and learning I have formed a certain set of beliefs but that doesn't make me universally right and I have learned over recent months to try and challenge those beliefs as well as accepting that most other people don't share them. Coming at things from a position of 'I am right and they are wrong' seldom ends well for either party in most interactions.

If you have always believed that your two friends were intelligent people then the chances are that they still are, they just have a different viewpoint to you on one particular issue, maybe you can learn from each other on this. I know you are only trying to help them but sometimes you just need to accept and let people stand by their own decisions.

I do tend to agree with you on the Vit D though, 10'000iu seems too high although on the flip side the amount currently recommended by the Government ( 400IU ) is pitifully low. I currently take 4000iu a day and I think that is regarded as about the highest number you can safely take although Dr Fauci in the US reportedly takes 6000iu per day.


Although I still disagree about the basic issue, that was a very good post, I really appreciate you putting 'the other' point of view in a rational & reasonable way which helps me understand their position (perhaps I've been a tad intolerant with them!). Thanks.

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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 14:50 - Jan 13 with 287 viewshype313

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 14:46 - Jan 13 by Ryorry

Although I still disagree about the basic issue, that was a very good post, I really appreciate you putting 'the other' point of view in a rational & reasonable way which helps me understand their position (perhaps I've been a tad intolerant with them!). Thanks.


Indeed, everyone has a choice, and the last thing we need is a forced campaign on vaccines as that will play into the hands of the Anti Vaxxers.

Personally? I think it will be compulsory to a point via the back door, you don't want one? fine, but instead of Greece this year, it will be Grimsby.

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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 14:58 - Jan 13 with 275 viewsHarry_Palmer

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 14:34 - Jan 13 by SpruceMoose

10 books?!

Woah.


I have never claimed to be an expert on the subject, just a guy who is fairly well read with interest and an opinion. I'm sure you are far more educated though and the person everybody should listen to.
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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 14:59 - Jan 13 with 270 viewsEwan_Oozami

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 11:27 - Jan 13 by factual_blue

The paramour he was meeting was probably Lady Constance Malleson. She was the wife of actor Miles Malleson, whose most famous role was probably as the hangman in Kind Hearts And Coronets who was going to retire after hanging the Duke of Chalfont, as he couldn't go back to hanging with ordinary rope after using a silk noose on the Duke.


You are Dr Lucy Worsley OBE and I claim my £5

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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 14:59 - Jan 13 with 269 viewsSpruceMoose

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 14:58 - Jan 13 by Harry_Palmer

I have never claimed to be an expert on the subject, just a guy who is fairly well read with interest and an opinion. I'm sure you are far more educated though and the person everybody should listen to.


Not really. I just follow the guidance from the actual experts.

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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:05 - Jan 13 with 262 viewsHarry_Palmer

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 14:50 - Jan 13 by hype313

Indeed, everyone has a choice, and the last thing we need is a forced campaign on vaccines as that will play into the hands of the Anti Vaxxers.

Personally? I think it will be compulsory to a point via the back door, you don't want one? fine, but instead of Greece this year, it will be Grimsby.


You could be right but that in itself would be unfair in my opinion. With what we currently know at this stage there is no data that shows any of the vaccines prevent transmission and they are not guaranteed to even stop you getting it, therefore restricting peoples ability to travel would not provide any public health benefit. If the evidence of stopping transmission becomes available then of course there may be more of a case in future.
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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:14 - Jan 13 with 256 viewsHarry_Palmer

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 14:59 - Jan 13 by SpruceMoose

Not really. I just follow the guidance from the actual experts.


Of course it should be pointed out that the 'actual experts' you refer to are largely those that benefit financially from the industry and products they are recommending. I'm all for informed choice though and you have made yours, I hope it serves you well.
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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:16 - Jan 13 with 245 viewsblueislander

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 14:46 - Jan 13 by Ryorry

Although I still disagree about the basic issue, that was a very good post, I really appreciate you putting 'the other' point of view in a rational & reasonable way which helps me understand their position (perhaps I've been a tad intolerant with them!). Thanks.


I just wonder if his viewpoint will change , if , in a year's time Covid has been pretty much quelled. Also I would have to question his "research". I don't think that any accredited epidemiologists or virologists , or indeed anyone practising medicine shares his view.
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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:20 - Jan 13 with 240 viewsSpruceMoose

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:14 - Jan 13 by Harry_Palmer

Of course it should be pointed out that the 'actual experts' you refer to are largely those that benefit financially from the industry and products they are recommending. I'm all for informed choice though and you have made yours, I hope it serves you well.


You're right.

Vaccines are a money making scam. Thanks for saving me having to read those 10 pamphlets.

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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:27 - Jan 13 with 232 viewsRyorry

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:16 - Jan 13 by blueislander

I just wonder if his viewpoint will change , if , in a year's time Covid has been pretty much quelled. Also I would have to question his "research". I don't think that any accredited epidemiologists or virologists , or indeed anyone practising medicine shares his view.


My reply to HarryP wasn't anything to do with the facts, whys & wherefores of vaccines/vaccination itself, simply an appreciation that he helped me to understand the viewpoints of others who don't share my views on the issue.

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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:28 - Jan 13 with 232 viewsblueislander

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:14 - Jan 13 by Harry_Palmer

Of course it should be pointed out that the 'actual experts' you refer to are largely those that benefit financially from the industry and products they are recommending. I'm all for informed choice though and you have made yours, I hope it serves you well.


That is absolute b-llocks. How do all of those working on the front line of the NHS and other essential workers benefit financially from the vaccines ?
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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:31 - Jan 13 with 227 viewsHarry_Palmer

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 14:40 - Jan 13 by hype313

Just out of interest, and certainly not wanting to start an argument or to have a dig, why are you Skeptical about Vaccines?


A number of reasons but it really is a multi layered issue which I don't have time to do justice to today and will only open up a 20 pager if I do. As I have posted previously, I have a relative who was negatively affected by a vaccine and that started my interest. I also have concerns over some of the ingredients used in vaccines and the wealth of scientific evidence that shows their potential to do harm. My position has softened a bit in recent times as I have come to accept that such incidences are rare, however I don't think the full picture is fully known due to a lack of transparency and I maintain that while there is risk there should always be a choice. I don't much like the way things are heading on that front. I don't view myself as an 'anti-vaxxer' more of a skeptic and somebody that is pro safer vaccines and pro-informed choice.
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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:33 - Jan 13 with 221 viewsjeera

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:14 - Jan 13 by Harry_Palmer

Of course it should be pointed out that the 'actual experts' you refer to are largely those that benefit financially from the industry and products they are recommending. I'm all for informed choice though and you have made yours, I hope it serves you well.


Why do you never mention polio or measles etc when repeating these lines?

Why do you show no interest in the millions of lives that have been saved,or the misery that has been avoided?

No interest in the positives which are huge, only focussing on the negatives which are miniscule in comparison.

If you want to talk corruption, take your pick, there's a zillion subjects to get to grips with before vaccinations could even be considered.

Well it looks like a duck, it sounds like a duck. Nope, dunno what it is.
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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:35 - Jan 13 with 211 viewsHarry_Palmer

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:28 - Jan 13 by blueislander

That is absolute b-llocks. How do all of those working on the front line of the NHS and other essential workers benefit financially from the vaccines ?


Who mentioned front line NHS workers? I certainly didn't because front line NHS workers while very good at what they do are generally not experts on vaccination.
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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:36 - Jan 13 with 207 viewsSpruceMoose

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:35 - Jan 13 by Harry_Palmer

Who mentioned front line NHS workers? I certainly didn't because front line NHS workers while very good at what they do are generally not experts on vaccination.


Someone should provide them a list of those ten books.

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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:38 - Jan 13 with 206 viewsStokieBlue

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 14:58 - Jan 13 by Harry_Palmer

I have never claimed to be an expert on the subject, just a guy who is fairly well read with interest and an opinion. I'm sure you are far more educated though and the person everybody should listen to.


Afternoon Harry.

The issue I have with your longer post is that it essentially calls for balance but because of your own personal and extremely unfortunate circumstance you don't always apply that balance to your views. You tend to disproportionally highlight the risks whilst not given fair time to the fact that those risks, whilst existent, are extremely rare cases.

Perhaps I am wrong but that is how I tend to see many of our historical exchanges. I do however see that in a post I hadn't got to in this thread you have said your position has eased and you do accept these occurrences are rare.

SB
[Post edited 13 Jan 15:39]

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:46 - Jan 13 with 173 viewsHarry_Palmer

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:16 - Jan 13 by blueislander

I just wonder if his viewpoint will change , if , in a year's time Covid has been pretty much quelled. Also I would have to question his "research". I don't think that any accredited epidemiologists or virologists , or indeed anyone practising medicine shares his view.


Covid will be pretty much quelled in a years time with or without vaccines because that's what happens with new viruses, pandemics don't last forever. For example there was a flu pandemic in the late 60s which killed 100'000 people in the states but it eventually eased without a vaccine and in fact the strain is still in circulation to this day.

I'm not saying that vaccines won't have a role to play but from the point of view of your post it will be an easy claim to make that vaccines ended the pandemic when the reality is they eventually burn themselves out regardless.
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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:49 - Jan 13 with 164 viewsblueislander

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:35 - Jan 13 by Harry_Palmer

Who mentioned front line NHS workers? I certainly didn't because front line NHS workers while very good at what they do are generally not experts on vaccination.


I mentioned the NHS workers because they are going to benefit enormously from the vaccines, and I don't think any one of them would hesitate to strongly recommend getting immunised. The vast majority of epidemiologists and virologists have no financial interest in the vaccines either , and they are universally in favour of them. Your point about people benefitting financially is , I repeat, absolute b-llocks.
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