| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 21:17 - Jan 14 with 5854 views | Dubtractor |
Surprise! They are looking to roll back workers rights and protections.
Who'd have predicted that this would happen........
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:26 - Jan 15 with 736 views | giant_stow |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:12 - Jan 15 by Darth_Koont |
No. I definitely go looking for the evidence and read up on it. You seem to come with your hot take from the commentariat and your “I used to support Arsenal but they’re a bit sh!t now. Come on Citeh!” blitheness.
What do you think the Forde inquiry is looking at? What do you think the leadership coups were all about? What do you think is behind Starmer’s rejection of the membership and cosying up to the donors and lobbyists instead?
This is what Labour politics is now, way more than representing ordinary people and offering an alternative. It’s run by people, for people, who all think the status quo just needs a dash of new paint and a little tweak. Not people who, to borrow someone else’s metaphor from this week, want to fix the subsidence. What subsidence? It doesn’t affect them and the people they increasingly look to represent and anybody even talking about subsidence should be purged. |
Have you got any evidence that its the richer Labour supporters that support what you term a centrist approach? The Red wall theory seems to say the opposite. |  |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:33 - Jan 15 with 724 views | Darth_Koont |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:22 - Jan 15 by Herbivore |
I'm only really seeing the Tories doing stuff like giving money away to their mates whilst failing to feed poor kids. |
Probably because Labour aren’t in a position to give away money. But check out where those who left the Labour Party ended up and how far their principles took them...
If Thatcher’s greatest achievement was Blair then Blair’s finest achievement was making these people stand for “Labour values”. Probably in the same way he stands for Middle East peace. |  |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:40 - Jan 15 with 713 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:33 - Jan 15 by Darth_Koont |
Probably because Labour aren’t in a position to give away money. But check out where those who left the Labour Party ended up and how far their principles took them...
If Thatcher’s greatest achievement was Blair then Blair’s finest achievement was making these people stand for “Labour values”. Probably in the same way he stands for Middle East peace. |
Not really sure what that has to do with my post. If you're speculating that you think Labour would be giving money away to their pals whilst failing to feed poor children if they were in power currently then I respectfully disagree. It's hypothetical of course but I'm really not sure what you're basing that view on, aside from your dislike of Keir Starmer, in which case I'd point out to you again that you are behaving towards Starmer in precisely the way you accuse 'centrists' of behaving towards Corbyn. I try not to get bogged down in all this, but it looks like two saggy, depressing cheeks of the same arse to me. |  |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:45 - Jan 15 with 696 views | footers |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:33 - Jan 15 by Darth_Koont |
Probably because Labour aren’t in a position to give away money. But check out where those who left the Labour Party ended up and how far their principles took them...
If Thatcher’s greatest achievement was Blair then Blair’s finest achievement was making these people stand for “Labour values”. Probably in the same way he stands for Middle East peace. |
You mean such principled Labour people as Umunna and Berger, who now make a living bigging up Brexit and defending climate change deniers at a right-wing thinktank? Who saw that one coming, eh. |  |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:47 - Jan 15 with 682 views | itfcjoe |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:12 - Jan 15 by Darth_Koont |
No. I definitely go looking for the evidence and read up on it. You seem to come with your hot take from the commentariat and your “I used to support Arsenal but they’re a bit sh!t now. Come on Citeh!” blitheness.
What do you think the Forde inquiry is looking at? What do you think the leadership coups were all about? What do you think is behind Starmer’s rejection of the membership and cosying up to the donors and lobbyists instead?
This is what Labour politics is now, way more than representing ordinary people and offering an alternative. It’s run by people, for people, who all think the status quo just needs a dash of new paint and a little tweak. Not people who, to borrow someone else’s metaphor from this week, want to fix the subsidence. What subsidence? It doesn’t affect them and the people they increasingly look to represent and anybody even talking about subsidence should be purged. |
This whole, "they are all the same" don't trust the lot of them is just utter b*llocks though.
New Labour have done more for people like me and my family who grew up in a working class background, than any Tory Government ever have done. My situation, and that of my parents above and my children below me, is now more what would be associated with a Conservative voter.....but I see the damage they do and vote against my personal interests for the Labour party, even when it was led by Corbyn.
Labour have to play the game to get in power, I accept that and encourage it because I want to see them in power and actually making a difference to the working classes, like they did between 1997 and 2010.
There isn't going to be a revolution in what is and always will be a conservative (with a little 'c') country. I'll stick to my politics which aims to get in power to help people, as opposed to thinking winning arguments is more important than winning elections.
Starmer is a way to the left of New Labour as it is, Milliband was too - Corbyn and Momentum have had their turn, they failed. It's now time for Labour to win an election. |  |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:48 - Jan 15 with 678 views | m14_blue |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 15:18 - Jan 15 by soupytwist |
And assumes that if PR had been in place the same number of people would have voted UKIP knowing that it would have had consequences. A vote for UKIP under FPTP was for many a way of influencing Tory policy without any real consequences.
You could also say that 80 UKIP MPs could have done the party more harm than good. We would have seen just what a bunch of loons many of their candidates were. And many of those 80 UKIP MPs would probably have taken seats from the Tories so it may have been possible for another party or parties to gain power. |
I’m not sure anyone who voted UKIP is capable of such nuanced thinking tbh. |  | | |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:53 - Jan 15 with 661 views | Darth_Koont |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:45 - Jan 15 by footers |
You mean such principled Labour people as Umunna and Berger, who now make a living bigging up Brexit and defending climate change deniers at a right-wing thinktank? Who saw that one coming, eh. |
Anyone with eyes in their head and a soul?
Problem nowadays with the celebrated “clever politics”, “effective opposition” and “political opinions” is that they don’t just give cover to lying, self-serving grifters. These euphemisms celebrate and elevate them. | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:57 - Jan 15 with 645 views | giant_stow |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:53 - Jan 15 by Darth_Koont |
Anyone with eyes in their head and a soul?
Problem nowadays with the celebrated “clever politics”, “effective opposition” and “political opinions” is that they don’t just give cover to lying, self-serving grifters. These euphemisms celebrate and elevate them. |
Its ok Darth I've found some evidence for you...
In fairness, it looks like there's not much data out there but I did find:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/20/labours-new-members-mostly-weal
“Groups which are over-represented as Labour party members tend to be long-term homeowners from urban areas (particularly inner city area) who have high levels of disposable income.
Those who are under-represented tend to be either young singles/families who rent properties on a short-term basis and require financial assistance or those who live in rural communities.”
“high-status city dwellers living in central locations and pursuing careers with high rewards are highly over-represented.
As a group they make up 4% of the general population in contrast to 11.2% of party membership, it says."
This one’s interesting too. More low-income voters backed Tories than Labour for the first time in 2019 election, research finds: https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/uk-news/tories-poor-vote-labour
This one is similar but talks more about the socio-cultural aspects of the Tories win https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/low-income-voters-2019-general-election-and-future | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:57 - Jan 15 with 644 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:53 - Jan 15 by Darth_Koont |
Anyone with eyes in their head and a soul?
Problem nowadays with the celebrated “clever politics”, “effective opposition” and “political opinions” is that they don’t just give cover to lying, self-serving grifters. These euphemisms celebrate and elevate them. |
And career politician Jeremy Corbyn was above all that? | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 17:00 - Jan 15 with 639 views | Darth_Koont |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:47 - Jan 15 by itfcjoe |
This whole, "they are all the same" don't trust the lot of them is just utter b*llocks though.
New Labour have done more for people like me and my family who grew up in a working class background, than any Tory Government ever have done. My situation, and that of my parents above and my children below me, is now more what would be associated with a Conservative voter.....but I see the damage they do and vote against my personal interests for the Labour party, even when it was led by Corbyn.
Labour have to play the game to get in power, I accept that and encourage it because I want to see them in power and actually making a difference to the working classes, like they did between 1997 and 2010.
There isn't going to be a revolution in what is and always will be a conservative (with a little 'c') country. I'll stick to my politics which aims to get in power to help people, as opposed to thinking winning arguments is more important than winning elections.
Starmer is a way to the left of New Labour as it is, Milliband was too - Corbyn and Momentum have had their turn, they failed. It's now time for Labour to win an election. |
Your approach has seen Labour on a downward trajectory of losing support for 20 years. An uptick and reversal of that trend in 2017 notwithstanding.
Respectfully, you should get your head out of your @rse about where Labour is heading electorally and indeed where Scottish independence and Brexit actually came from. Even after a pandemic, if Labour can’t provide an alternative to drag the UK back on a more sensible and more modern track then they’re even more part of the problem than they have been in the past. | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 17:03 - Jan 15 with 630 views | Darth_Koont |
Helpful if you could tell me what point you’re trying to make.
Ta. | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 17:15 - Jan 15 with 612 views | Darth_Koont |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:40 - Jan 15 by Herbivore |
Not really sure what that has to do with my post. If you're speculating that you think Labour would be giving money away to their pals whilst failing to feed poor children if they were in power currently then I respectfully disagree. It's hypothetical of course but I'm really not sure what you're basing that view on, aside from your dislike of Keir Starmer, in which case I'd point out to you again that you are behaving towards Starmer in precisely the way you accuse 'centrists' of behaving towards Corbyn. I try not to get bogged down in all this, but it looks like two saggy, depressing cheeks of the same arse to me. |
I thought it was pretty clear.
Yes, the Tories are much worse overall, and I would vote Labour if that’s going to get them out. The problem with the modern Labour Party is that it should be a lot better and is still way too self-interested and self-serving.
The Tories may be ”evil” but Labour have been (and look like continuing to be) the ”good men and woken that do nothing”.
I have nothing against Starmer either. I doubt his effectiveness in meaningful terms when there’s an awful lot of stuff to be championing - and none of it waiting until 2024. | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 17:15 - Jan 15 with 611 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 22:08 - Jan 14 by Steve_M |
Always was a primary motivation for a lot of the Tory party.
I’m looking forward to hearing more from Lexiters about this or the likes of Stephen Kinnoch and Sarah Champion who decided to believe Johnson in Autumn 2019. [Post edited 15 Jan 2021 8:31]
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I would be more interested to here from those on the supposed left who demonise the Left and help enable a Tory Brexit....so most of the PLP for starters, bloody bourgeoisie! |  |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 17:17 - Jan 15 with 600 views | giant_stow |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 17:03 - Jan 15 by Darth_Koont |
Helpful if you could tell me what point you’re trying to make.
Ta. |
My post at the top of this page was replying to one of your previous ones:
"Have you got any evidence that its the richer Labour supporters that support what you term a centrist approach? The Red wall theory seems to say the opposite. "
I had a little google! | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 17:20 - Jan 15 with 594 views | Darth_Koont |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:57 - Jan 15 by Herbivore |
And career politician Jeremy Corbyn was above all that? |
Yes, I think he was above it. Even to the point that he might have managed situations better if he had a bit more grift about him at times.
But as a principled and representative leader that’s still more of a strength, given where we are in the world today and where politics has taken us. | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 17:20 - Jan 15 with 593 views | giant_stow |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 17:15 - Jan 15 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I would be more interested to here from those on the supposed left who demonise the Left and help enable a Tory Brexit....so most of the PLP for starters, bloody bourgeoisie! |
You voted for leave didn't you?!
... yet you want to blame remain-voting labour bods for "enabling a tory brexit"?!
erm... | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 17:24 - Jan 15 with 574 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 17:20 - Jan 15 by giant_stow |
You voted for leave didn't you?!
... yet you want to blame remain-voting labour bods for "enabling a tory brexit"?!
erm... |
Correct. | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 17:25 - Jan 15 with 574 views | Darth_Koont |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 17:17 - Jan 15 by giant_stow |
My post at the top of this page was replying to one of your previous ones:
"Have you got any evidence that its the richer Labour supporters that support what you term a centrist approach? The Red wall theory seems to say the opposite. "
I had a little google! |
I don’t even understand what your reply means or why that is a reply to what I wrote.
Can you show me what you’re replying to exactly and the simple summary of your point? | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 17:34 - Jan 15 with 562 views | monytowbray |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:59 - Jan 15 by itfcjoe |
2 politicians have left us where we are with ill thought out decisions that had huge consequences and have led to brexit.
David Cameron - who gambled with the referendum
Ed Milliband - who changed the rules for electing of a Labour leader
Both decisions taken seemingly flippantly have led to both main parties being torn apart by entryists from the far flanks - be it Momentum or UKIP |
As I said to TDS, look beyond the parties. It goes much further up how we got here. Those two aspects are a symptom.
Although I do think it’s highly unfair to lump Momentum in with UKIP. |  |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 18:37 - Jan 15 with 526 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 17:17 - Jan 15 by giant_stow |
My post at the top of this page was replying to one of your previous ones:
"Have you got any evidence that its the richer Labour supporters that support what you term a centrist approach? The Red wall theory seems to say the opposite. "
I had a little google! |
I think your findings disprove your point, unless I've misunderstood it. The JRF report shows that while low-income voters largely aligned themselves with Labour's wealth redistribution policies, Brexit mattered far more to them, and Labour's more pro-remain stance in 2019 (arguably more strongly pushed by the more centrist elements of the party) appears to have been a major factor in pushing low income voters away (Corbyn's personal unpopularity undoubtedly helped, but isn't really explored).
It seems to be part of a worrying American-style trend where patriotic stuff matters more to a significant number of voters than wellbeing. I saw this in Israel nearly 20 years ago and found it odd and sad then. It appears that in the upcoming elections the Israeli Labour Party will lose its parliamentary representation entirely...
A 'patriotic' left-wing party is what many English low-income voters really seem to want, but those patriotic ideals are often hard to reconcile with other left-wing beliefs. If we had a more representative electoral system a party that fits that description might emerge, which would probably end up forming coalitions with a more internationalist left-wing party. |  | | |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 19:13 - Jan 15 with 487 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 17:20 - Jan 15 by Darth_Koont |
Yes, I think he was above it. Even to the point that he might have managed situations better if he had a bit more grift about him at times.
But as a principled and representative leader that’s still more of a strength, given where we are in the world today and where politics has taken us. |
I think that's a rather blinkered and somewhat rose tinted view of him. | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 19:47 - Jan 15 with 464 views | syntaxerror |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 12:40 - Jan 15 by You_Bloo_Right |
I assume that's calculated on proportion of the vote so, depending on both the PR system adopted and how it may have been applied (allowance for both a national and constituency based PR system - if that is even workable) probably less than 80 in reality.
The thing is though would 80 UKIP MPs of a total cohort of 650 be any more scary than where we are now? |
How many Green seats? |  | | |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 23:01 - Jan 15 with 385 views | Darth_Koont |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 19:13 - Jan 15 by Herbivore |
I think that's a rather blinkered and somewhat rose tinted view of him. |
Perhaps.
But a lot more accurate than the general narrative against him. | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 10:38 - Jan 16 with 311 views | giant_stow |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 18:37 - Jan 15 by Clapham_Junction |
I think your findings disprove your point, unless I've misunderstood it. The JRF report shows that while low-income voters largely aligned themselves with Labour's wealth redistribution policies, Brexit mattered far more to them, and Labour's more pro-remain stance in 2019 (arguably more strongly pushed by the more centrist elements of the party) appears to have been a major factor in pushing low income voters away (Corbyn's personal unpopularity undoubtedly helped, but isn't really explored).
It seems to be part of a worrying American-style trend where patriotic stuff matters more to a significant number of voters than wellbeing. I saw this in Israel nearly 20 years ago and found it odd and sad then. It appears that in the upcoming elections the Israeli Labour Party will lose its parliamentary representation entirely...
A 'patriotic' left-wing party is what many English low-income voters really seem to want, but those patriotic ideals are often hard to reconcile with other left-wing beliefs. If we had a more representative electoral system a party that fits that description might emerge, which would probably end up forming coalitions with a more internationalist left-wing party. |
Thanks for the courtesy of a proper reply Mr and interesting points you make too. No point my shooting back bits of that report that back up what I was saying as the moments gone and I can't be arsed! | |
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