| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 21:17 - Jan 14 with 5831 views | Dubtractor |
Surprise! They are looking to roll back workers rights and protections.
Who'd have predicted that this would happen........
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:39 - Jan 15 with 631 views | tractordownsouth |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 12:55 - Jan 15 by monytowbray |
Yes, because evidence is there. Leaked messages, budget allocations, etc.
It’s not a conspiracy, it happened, regardless of how much importance you place on it in the scheme of things.
Difference was the Tories rallied around one cry. |
Yeah - and some of that behaviour was deplorable - but that's not the reason Labour lost. It's the same as blaming the entire defeat on the media, it's just an excuse, not construvtive criticism to move forward with. I'm sure budget allocations had some impact but the idea that a few leaked WhatsApp messages in Labour HQ were what deprived the party of power isn't realistic. It's the same as the "Labour were 2200 votes from power" line - that would've given a majority of 1 with the Lib Dems, PC, SNP etc, and ironically the people pushing that idea that they would've signed up to a Corbyn agenda are the same ones that claim the Lib Dems are just yellow Tories. It's worth pointing out that May was around 500 votes from a majority too - so 2017 wasn't a success.
I agree that some didn't give Corbyn a fair crack of the whip in 2015, but even if you blame those people for Labour's low polling in 2015-17, May wouldn't have called a snap election if Labour had been doing well. So either way there would've been no Labour victory in 2017, even if the Blairites were onside. |  |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:41 - Jan 15 with 624 views | monytowbray |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:39 - Jan 15 by tractordownsouth |
Yeah - and some of that behaviour was deplorable - but that's not the reason Labour lost. It's the same as blaming the entire defeat on the media, it's just an excuse, not construvtive criticism to move forward with. I'm sure budget allocations had some impact but the idea that a few leaked WhatsApp messages in Labour HQ were what deprived the party of power isn't realistic. It's the same as the "Labour were 2200 votes from power" line - that would've given a majority of 1 with the Lib Dems, PC, SNP etc, and ironically the people pushing that idea that they would've signed up to a Corbyn agenda are the same ones that claim the Lib Dems are just yellow Tories. It's worth pointing out that May was around 500 votes from a majority too - so 2017 wasn't a success.
I agree that some didn't give Corbyn a fair crack of the whip in 2015, but even if you blame those people for Labour's low polling in 2015-17, May wouldn't have called a snap election if Labour had been doing well. So either way there would've been no Labour victory in 2017, even if the Blairites were onside. |
The snap election was arguably more about Brexit than Labour though. |  |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:42 - Jan 15 with 617 views | monytowbray |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:27 - Jan 15 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
What about those that voted Liberal Democrat? In my constituency they are the only ones that can realistically hope to win (even then it’s very unlikely)
I was simply lamenting that this terrible Govt have little opposition. |
It's not so much about who voted for who on here but who enables/defends the inexcusable and then ducks when the chickens come home to roost. | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:43 - Jan 15 with 613 views | tractordownsouth |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 13:59 - Jan 15 by Herbivore |
But instead they ultimately ended up in power by scaring the Tories into becoming Diet UKIP (arguably now full fat UKIP). Under PR they'd have had seats but with it they'd have had to actually engage in politics in a serious fashion and would have been shown up as a bunch of numpties. Instead under FPTP they have indirect influence and no accountability. |
Fair point - and I guess having John Bercow shout "Mr Dick Braiiiiine" at PMQs would've been funny. | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:43 - Jan 15 with 613 views | monytowbray |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:38 - Jan 15 by itfcjoe |
Because Remain was the official position of the leadership of the Labour Party, and he was the Leader.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36496288
There have been reports suggesting that many Labour voters do not realise the party is in favour of remaining in the EU.
BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg said several senior figures had told her they were genuinely worried that many Labour voters would vote to leave the EU.
Mr Watson said the "Labour Party is about as united as it possibly can be in asking people to Remain" but added: "The one thing that does concern me is that the polls seem to say that about 40% of Labour supporters don't yet know our position ... There are two weeks to go, we need to get that message out." [Post edited 15 Jan 2021 14:40]
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Cameron was opposition too. And should have had more control over his opportunistic, corrupt, populist chancers within the party. | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:43 - Jan 15 with 612 views | jeera |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:38 - Jan 15 by itfcjoe |
Because Remain was the official position of the leadership of the Labour Party, and he was the Leader.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36496288
There have been reports suggesting that many Labour voters do not realise the party is in favour of remaining in the EU.
BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg said several senior figures had told her they were genuinely worried that many Labour voters would vote to leave the EU.
Mr Watson said the "Labour Party is about as united as it possibly can be in asking people to Remain" but added: "The one thing that does concern me is that the polls seem to say that about 40% of Labour supporters don't yet know our position ... There are two weeks to go, we need to get that message out." [Post edited 15 Jan 2021 14:40]
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Not his personal stance though, of which he had always been clear.
If Labour wanted to be active in remaining, then they chose the wrong leader. His position has never been a secret.
Hence the accusations of his 'sitting on the fence ' on the matter.
That was his compromise, to offer another referendum. |  |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:45 - Jan 15 with 611 views | tractordownsouth |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:41 - Jan 15 by monytowbray |
The snap election was arguably more about Brexit than Labour though. |
That was the excuse that May used, but Labour had voted to trigger A50 the week before - she tried to make Brexit the central theme of the campaign, but it was always about trying to increase the majority to consolidate her wider agenda rather than Brexit itself. | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:49 - Jan 15 with 601 views | monytowbray |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:45 - Jan 15 by tractordownsouth |
That was the excuse that May used, but Labour had voted to trigger A50 the week before - she tried to make Brexit the central theme of the campaign, but it was always about trying to increase the majority to consolidate her wider agenda rather than Brexit itself. |
It was about the same thing as 2017, getting a majority to make Brexit a bastion of disaster capitalism.
The second time they had the right face and message on their hyper targeted data campaigns.
You're a smart bloke TDS and I always respect your opinion, agree or disagree, but Brexit goes WELL beyond our party politics. All paper trails go back to the same oligarchs, hedge fund managers favourite right wing mouth pieces around the world.
Democracy is at war with Authoritarianism. Globally. [Post edited 15 Jan 2021 14:51]
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:56 - Jan 15 with 596 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:42 - Jan 15 by monytowbray |
It's not so much about who voted for who on here but who enables/defends the inexcusable and then ducks when the chickens come home to roost. |
Fair enough. I thought you were insinuating that the blame for this Govt lies with centrist voters like myself. |  | | |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:59 - Jan 15 with 594 views | itfcjoe |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:43 - Jan 15 by monytowbray |
Cameron was opposition too. And should have had more control over his opportunistic, corrupt, populist chancers within the party. |
2 politicians have left us where we are with ill thought out decisions that had huge consequences and have led to brexit.
David Cameron - who gambled with the referendum
Ed Milliband - who changed the rules for electing of a Labour leader
Both decisions taken seemingly flippantly have led to both main parties being torn apart by entryists from the far flanks - be it Momentum or UKIP |  |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 15:00 - Jan 15 with 593 views | Darth_Koont |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 13:59 - Jan 15 by Herbivore |
But instead they ultimately ended up in power by scaring the Tories into becoming Diet UKIP (arguably now full fat UKIP). Under PR they'd have had seats but with it they'd have had to actually engage in politics in a serious fashion and would have been shown up as a bunch of numpties. Instead under FPTP they have indirect influence and no accountability. |
Exactly. Not sure it would have had as much impact pre-internet, pre-24 hour news and certainly pre-social media but the UKIP/Brexit fringe ran rings around the lumbering behemoths of the Tories and Labour.
They got England* dancing to their tune.
With PR and a position at the table, they’d have been forced into declaring themselves as potential coalition partners and clearer decisions and statements of intent would have been made earlier. They’d have certainly revealed their enormous flaws and prejudices too.
*Scotland wasn’t listening because they’d already worked out that it was those lumbering behemoths and our deeply centralised politics and media that was to blame anyway. [Post edited 15 Jan 2021 15:05]
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 15:18 - Jan 15 with 567 views | soupytwist |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 12:40 - Jan 15 by You_Bloo_Right |
I assume that's calculated on proportion of the vote so, depending on both the PR system adopted and how it may have been applied (allowance for both a national and constituency based PR system - if that is even workable) probably less than 80 in reality.
The thing is though would 80 UKIP MPs of a total cohort of 650 be any more scary than where we are now? |
And assumes that if PR had been in place the same number of people would have voted UKIP knowing that it would have had consequences. A vote for UKIP under FPTP was for many a way of influencing Tory policy without any real consequences.
You could also say that 80 UKIP MPs could have done the party more harm than good. We would have seen just what a bunch of loons many of their candidates were. And many of those 80 UKIP MPs would probably have taken seats from the Tories so it may have been possible for another party or parties to gain power. |  | | |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 15:25 - Jan 15 with 559 views | Darth_Koont |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:38 - Jan 15 by itfcjoe |
Because Remain was the official position of the leadership of the Labour Party, and he was the Leader.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36496288
There have been reports suggesting that many Labour voters do not realise the party is in favour of remaining in the EU.
BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg said several senior figures had told her they were genuinely worried that many Labour voters would vote to leave the EU.
Mr Watson said the "Labour Party is about as united as it possibly can be in asking people to Remain" but added: "The one thing that does concern me is that the polls seem to say that about 40% of Labour supporters don't yet know our position ... There are two weeks to go, we need to get that message out." [Post edited 15 Jan 2021 14:40]
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Maybe if people like Watson and Alan Johnson (who was actually leading the Labour Remain campaign) had backed up Corbyn’s 7.5/10 verdict on the EU and his OFFICIAL Remain stance instead of playing factional silly büggers then maybe the message would have got out? It would also have allowed some reflection of the many Leave voters in Labour ... so instead of pushing them away they could have supported a Remain and Reform stance.
The BBC covered this factional aspect more dutifully than Corbyn’s actual campaigning for Remain.
Don’t believe these clowns. | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 15:29 - Jan 15 with 553 views | Darth_Koont |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:59 - Jan 15 by itfcjoe |
2 politicians have left us where we are with ill thought out decisions that had huge consequences and have led to brexit.
David Cameron - who gambled with the referendum
Ed Milliband - who changed the rules for electing of a Labour leader
Both decisions taken seemingly flippantly have led to both main parties being torn apart by entryists from the far flanks - be it Momentum or UKIP |
So says a Labour entrist from the right. We’ll have GB in there next. | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 15:30 - Jan 15 with 550 views | itfcjoe |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 15:25 - Jan 15 by Darth_Koont |
Maybe if people like Watson and Alan Johnson (who was actually leading the Labour Remain campaign) had backed up Corbyn’s 7.5/10 verdict on the EU and his OFFICIAL Remain stance instead of playing factional silly büggers then maybe the message would have got out? It would also have allowed some reflection of the many Leave voters in Labour ... so instead of pushing them away they could have supported a Remain and Reform stance.
The BBC covered this factional aspect more dutifully than Corbyn’s actual campaigning for Remain.
Don’t believe these clowns. |
Sorry, forgot that everything wrong is down to the Labour right - how silly of me | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 15:39 - Jan 15 with 543 views | Darth_Koont |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:39 - Jan 15 by tractordownsouth |
Yeah - and some of that behaviour was deplorable - but that's not the reason Labour lost. It's the same as blaming the entire defeat on the media, it's just an excuse, not construvtive criticism to move forward with. I'm sure budget allocations had some impact but the idea that a few leaked WhatsApp messages in Labour HQ were what deprived the party of power isn't realistic. It's the same as the "Labour were 2200 votes from power" line - that would've given a majority of 1 with the Lib Dems, PC, SNP etc, and ironically the people pushing that idea that they would've signed up to a Corbyn agenda are the same ones that claim the Lib Dems are just yellow Tories. It's worth pointing out that May was around 500 votes from a majority too - so 2017 wasn't a success.
I agree that some didn't give Corbyn a fair crack of the whip in 2015, but even if you blame those people for Labour's low polling in 2015-17, May wouldn't have called a snap election if Labour had been doing well. So either way there would've been no Labour victory in 2017, even if the Blairites were onside. |
No surprise that you want to gloss over one of the most savage and smeary political assassinations in memory. And not just by the right-wing which is to be expected. But the worst attacks were coming from establishment wing of the Labour Party and the supposedly balanced BBC and Guardian commentators.
Anyone who took part on those terms or supported it should be thoroughly ashamed. [Post edited 15 Jan 2021 15:40]
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 15:49 - Jan 15 with 525 views | Darth_Koont |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 15:30 - Jan 15 by itfcjoe |
Sorry, forgot that everything wrong is down to the Labour right - how silly of me |
Not everything no. But you’re blissfully unaware (or you know but don’t care) that they were by and large the aggressors in the factional war and that became their defining political fight. | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 15:52 - Jan 15 with 516 views | itfcjoe |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 15:49 - Jan 15 by Darth_Koont |
Not everything no. But you’re blissfully unaware (or you know but don’t care) that they were by and large the aggressors in the factional war and that became their defining political fight. |
Or you just have massive cognitive dissonance or a blind spot as big as the one you clearly think I have? | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:01 - Jan 15 with 496 views | NewcyBlue |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 14:42 - Jan 15 by monytowbray |
It's not so much about who voted for who on here but who enables/defends the inexcusable and then ducks when the chickens come home to roost. |
Name names then... |  |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:04 - Jan 15 with 488 views | Herbivore |
It's great to see lefties and centrists bickering whilst the right continues to crap on the poor and line their mates' pockets, laughing all the way. |  |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:12 - Jan 15 with 478 views | Darth_Koont |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 15:52 - Jan 15 by itfcjoe |
Or you just have massive cognitive dissonance or a blind spot as big as the one you clearly think I have? |
No. I definitely go looking for the evidence and read up on it. You seem to come with your hot take from the commentariat and your “I used to support Arsenal but they’re a bit sh!t now. Come on Citeh!” blitheness.
What do you think the Forde inquiry is looking at? What do you think the leadership coups were all about? What do you think is behind Starmer’s rejection of the membership and cosying up to the donors and lobbyists instead?
This is what Labour politics is now, way more than representing ordinary people and offering an alternative. It’s run by people, for people, who all think the status quo just needs a dash of new paint and a little tweak. Not people who, to borrow someone else’s metaphor from this week, want to fix the subsidence. What subsidence? It doesn’t affect them and the people they increasingly look to represent and anybody even talking about subsidence should be purged. | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:17 - Jan 15 with 473 views | Darth_Koont |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:04 - Jan 15 by Herbivore |
It's great to see lefties and centrists bickering whilst the right continues to crap on the poor and line their mates' pockets, laughing all the way. |
Indeed. People should be crapping on the smug, self-interested establishment regardless of the colour of their rosette. And reserving most for some of the worst ones in government.
Thank God for someone like Marcus Rashford that embarrasses the lot of them. | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:17 - Jan 15 with 472 views | tractordownsouth |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 15:39 - Jan 15 by Darth_Koont |
No surprise that you want to gloss over one of the most savage and smeary political assassinations in memory. And not just by the right-wing which is to be expected. But the worst attacks were coming from establishment wing of the Labour Party and the supposedly balanced BBC and Guardian commentators.
Anyone who took part on those terms or supported it should be thoroughly ashamed. [Post edited 15 Jan 2021 15:40]
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I'm not denying that Corbyn got a rough deal from some within the media and even his own party, something which did have some bearing on the election results - my point is that placing the entirety of the blame on "savage and smeary political assasinations" prevents any serious evaluation of his failures in other areas. Same thing applies to Miliband - the bacon sandwich photo in the Sun and the Daily Mail smears about his father were unfair but that doesn't mask the fact he made major strategic errors in not challneging the Tory narratives around the Financial Crash. | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:22 - Jan 15 with 463 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:17 - Jan 15 by Darth_Koont |
Indeed. People should be crapping on the smug, self-interested establishment regardless of the colour of their rosette. And reserving most for some of the worst ones in government.
Thank God for someone like Marcus Rashford that embarrasses the lot of them. |
I'm only really seeing the Tories doing stuff like giving money away to their mates whilst failing to feed poor kids. | |
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| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:26 - Jan 15 with 454 views | Darth_Koont |
| Brexit will be sh1t part 27534563 on 16:17 - Jan 15 by tractordownsouth |
I'm not denying that Corbyn got a rough deal from some within the media and even his own party, something which did have some bearing on the election results - my point is that placing the entirety of the blame on "savage and smeary political assasinations" prevents any serious evaluation of his failures in other areas. Same thing applies to Miliband - the bacon sandwich photo in the Sun and the Daily Mail smears about his father were unfair but that doesn't mask the fact he made major strategic errors in not challneging the Tory narratives around the Financial Crash. |
But the debate barely if ever reached the level of analysis and criticism of Corbyn’s successes and failures! That was the biggest problem with all that crap.
All that stuff about nationalising sausages or Broadband Communism was the result, and they were both on the BBC I believe.
This isn’t about the treatment of one man, it’s far more about the shoddy treatment of democracy and political debate for self-interested purposes. That’s what makes me furious. | |
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