| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:36 - Feb 2 with 625 views | SpruceMoose |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:34 - Feb 2 by J2BLUE |
I'm not arguing it should be a substitute for substance. It does no harm if used alongside actual decent policies which do all those things.
Whenever leaders meet the flags are in the background. It's just part of it. There's nothing wrong with adding a bit of imagery. As I said, Corbyn was accused of hating Britain etc and they are just showing the hard of thinking that Labour isn't actually anti-British.
If Starmer uses the flag and those other things as a substitute for actual substance then by all means criticise. |
Sorry J2, I just don't agree with any of that.
It's cheap and it treats people like idiots. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:36 - Feb 2 with 622 views | m14_blue |
I’m 100% sure every political party has these sort of internal ‘strategy’ groups and presentations based on what their advisors and focus groups are telling them.
The findings of this one are hardly surprising or controversial, even if they are a little depressing.
Complete non story. |  | | |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:38 - Feb 2 with 617 views | SpruceMoose |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:36 - Feb 2 by m14_blue |
I’m 100% sure every political party has these sort of internal ‘strategy’ groups and presentations based on what their advisors and focus groups are telling them.
The findings of this one are hardly surprising or controversial, even if they are a little depressing.
Complete non story. |
Just to be clear, I wasn't presenting it as being slightly shocking or remotely controversial. I actually find it utterly predictable and incredibly depressing. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:39 - Feb 2 with 612 views | J2BLUE |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:36 - Feb 2 by SpruceMoose |
Sorry J2, I just don't agree with any of that.
It's cheap and it treats people like idiots. |
So Labour should avoid all this while the Tories go around waving the flag etc? The reality is many people are taken in by it. It's all very well wishing for Labour to rise above it but they won't get into power doing that. There's nothing wrong with doing things like this just to level the playing field and then beating the Tories with their manifesto.
There is no reason to go into the fight with a hand tied behind their back. |  |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:39 - Feb 2 with 612 views | Keno |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:20 - Feb 2 by You_Bloo_Right |
You mean ...
Arise ye workers from your slumbers
Arise ye prisoners of want |
How are they working if they are sleeping? |  |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:41 - Feb 2 with 603 views | BlueBadger |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:30 - Feb 2 by Churchman |
Not for the majority of English people. There are no more bone headed people in this country as a percentage than there are in Scotland Ireland or Wales. The media (Sun etc) is a different story, but that’s not the people.
I see plenty of cars with Scotland and Welsh badges on them and no problem at all. I’d be interested to know if the reverse is the case in say Scotland. |
I'd say we have an approximate 52% bonehead population... |  |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:42 - Feb 2 with 594 views | m14_blue |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:38 - Feb 2 by SpruceMoose |
Just to be clear, I wasn't presenting it as being slightly shocking or remotely controversial. I actually find it utterly predictable and incredibly depressing. |
I’d have been amazed if the conversations weren’t taking place. The previous Labour leadership had a real problem with being perceived as unpatriotic and that is a huge issue electorally.
The flag thing seems vacuous but was probably inevitable.
I find it depressing too, but that’s a reflection on the thought process of much of the electorate rather than the Labour Party. [Post edited 2 Feb 2021 20:42]
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:42 - Feb 2 with 593 views | Churchman |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:30 - Feb 2 by SpruceMoose |
If, as you say, it's just a flag, then doesn't it seem a rather lightweight and empty thing to base your political party around?
I don't care about flags. Nationalism seems ridiculous to me. What I care about is substance, and you can make the argument for and promote all the kinds of things you mentioned - pride in your country, having a sense of belonging, wanting to highlight your country's values and achievements on the international stage - with substantive policy and how we interact with the rest of the world.
Photoshoots with Union flags, Beefeaters and double decker buses are cheap and hollow. Don't just act proud. Give us something to be proud about. I'd like a thoughtful Labour leader please, not Austin Powers. [Post edited 2 Feb 2021 20:34]
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Nationalism is great for football, sport, taking the Mickey and having a laugh.
A few years ago I was in Colorado and we got to know some people from Wales. The rugby was coming up and England were red hot favourites. The banter raged and a beer or two was wagered on it. England lost. We went to the bar at the appointed hour the following night. The barstewards even waited 10 minutes for the big entry.
In they came in their rugby shirts (I had mine on too) and a big mitt clamped me on the shoulder and smiled. I forced a sad smile back and ordered up the beers and we had the night to end all nights, the barman, who wondered what was going to happen, did well that evening.
That is what for me nationalism should be all about. [Post edited 2 Feb 2021 20:43]
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:43 - Feb 2 with 583 views | J2BLUE |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:42 - Feb 2 by Churchman |
Nationalism is great for football, sport, taking the Mickey and having a laugh.
A few years ago I was in Colorado and we got to know some people from Wales. The rugby was coming up and England were red hot favourites. The banter raged and a beer or two was wagered on it. England lost. We went to the bar at the appointed hour the following night. The barstewards even waited 10 minutes for the big entry.
In they came in their rugby shirts (I had mine on too) and a big mitt clamped me on the shoulder and smiled. I forced a sad smile back and ordered up the beers and we had the night to end all nights, the barman, who wondered what was going to happen, did well that evening.
That is what for me nationalism should be all about. [Post edited 2 Feb 2021 20:43]
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That's not nationalism. | |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:46 - Feb 2 with 571 views | Churchman |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:41 - Feb 2 by BlueBadger |
I'd say we have an approximate 52% bonehead population... |
No more than anywhere else in my view, whatever the percentage | | | |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:47 - Feb 2 with 561 views | SpruceMoose |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:39 - Feb 2 by J2BLUE |
So Labour should avoid all this while the Tories go around waving the flag etc? The reality is many people are taken in by it. It's all very well wishing for Labour to rise above it but they won't get into power doing that. There's nothing wrong with doing things like this just to level the playing field and then beating the Tories with their manifesto.
There is no reason to go into the fight with a hand tied behind their back. |
So, if you can't beat the Tories just join them? Many people are also clearly taken in by not providing food to needy school kids and cutting local services to the bone. Should Labour go after their votes too by offering the same as the Conservatives? What's the point of getting Labour into power if they just deliver the same things as the Conservatives?
Sorry, no. They have a responsibility towards the people who aren't happy to just vote Conservatives and then act shocked at why the country slips further down the pan.
It's just another step on the ladder we've been climbing towards absolute vapidity and emptiness in our politics. Why not just stick Johnson and Starmer on Britain's Got Talent and whoever can pull of the best soft-shoe gets to run the country and be done with it. [Post edited 2 Feb 2021 20:51]
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:49 - Feb 2 with 547 views | SpruceMoose |
The only time I want to hear about Mitch McConnell is while reading his obituary.
What he means is she draws too much heat. They hate the style, not the substance. And she's a woman too. They'll hate that on principle. [Post edited 2 Feb 2021 20:50]
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:51 - Feb 2 with 533 views | Sarge |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:30 - Feb 2 by SpruceMoose |
If, as you say, it's just a flag, then doesn't it seem a rather lightweight and empty thing to base your political party around?
I don't care about flags. Nationalism seems ridiculous to me. What I care about is substance, and you can make the argument for and promote all the kinds of things you mentioned - pride in your country, having a sense of belonging, wanting to highlight your country's values and achievements on the international stage - with substantive policy and how we interact with the rest of the world.
Photoshoots with Union flags, Beefeaters and double decker buses are cheap and hollow. Don't just act proud. Give us something to be proud about. I'd like a thoughtful Labour leader please, not Austin Powers. [Post edited 2 Feb 2021 20:34]
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Whether they’re cheap and hollow is irrelevant. The majority of public that vote cast their vote for the Tories. It can be argued therefore that the majority of people that vote are thick as sh1t. If including national symbolism more is what’s required to get those people on your side so that you can be in a position to enact your thoughtful and substantive policies, then so be it.
That aside, criticising something that isn’t bad because it has been hijacked by something that is bad is not a perspective that would be tolerated on many other subjects. | | | |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:52 - Feb 2 with 527 views | J2BLUE |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:47 - Feb 2 by SpruceMoose |
So, if you can't beat the Tories just join them? Many people are also clearly taken in by not providing food to needy school kids and cutting local services to the bone. Should Labour go after their votes too by offering the same as the Conservatives? What's the point of getting Labour into power if they just deliver the same things as the Conservatives?
Sorry, no. They have a responsibility towards the people who aren't happy to just vote Conservatives and then act shocked at why the country slips further down the pan.
It's just another step on the ladder we've been climbing towards absolute vapidity and emptiness in our politics. Why not just stick Johnson and Starmer on Britain's Got Talent and whoever can pull of the best soft-shoe gets to run the country and be done with it. [Post edited 2 Feb 2021 20:51]
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Sticking a flag in the background isn't the same as the food for kids thing and it's a daft comparison.
This is the problem with some of you. You'd rather rejected things like this which make little difference out of some sort of idealist desire than actually get a better party in power who could make a difference. It might not be the pure vision you dream of but it will be better. We're not going to swing from the Tories to the vision some on here have.
It's like the militant vegan who is so adamant anything less than veganism isn't acceptable that they dismiss people who want to do meat free money or go vegetarian etc. Take the ground you can have, get a foothold and then sell the vision of where you want to end up. | |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:53 - Feb 2 with 523 views | thebooks |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:42 - Feb 2 by Churchman |
Nationalism is great for football, sport, taking the Mickey and having a laugh.
A few years ago I was in Colorado and we got to know some people from Wales. The rugby was coming up and England were red hot favourites. The banter raged and a beer or two was wagered on it. England lost. We went to the bar at the appointed hour the following night. The barstewards even waited 10 minutes for the big entry.
In they came in their rugby shirts (I had mine on too) and a big mitt clamped me on the shoulder and smiled. I forced a sad smile back and ordered up the beers and we had the night to end all nights, the barman, who wondered what was going to happen, did well that evening.
That is what for me nationalism should be all about. [Post edited 2 Feb 2021 20:43]
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I wondered where that was going at “and a big mitt clamped me”. |  | | |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:58 - Feb 2 with 506 views | SpruceMoose |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:52 - Feb 2 by J2BLUE |
Sticking a flag in the background isn't the same as the food for kids thing and it's a daft comparison.
This is the problem with some of you. You'd rather rejected things like this which make little difference out of some sort of idealist desire than actually get a better party in power who could make a difference. It might not be the pure vision you dream of but it will be better. We're not going to swing from the Tories to the vision some on here have.
It's like the militant vegan who is so adamant anything less than veganism isn't acceptable that they dismiss people who want to do meat free money or go vegetarian etc. Take the ground you can have, get a foothold and then sell the vision of where you want to end up. |
If you want to talk problem worldviews, I'd probably point to some folk wanting us to keep doing the same exact stuff over and over again that we've been trying for decades, and then acting in disbelief when we see the same exact results that we've got for decades.
I'd say that's the actual problem we are living through right now, and is sure as sh!t a larger one than than me not wanting the Labour Party to go down the road of saying 'Hey vote for us! We're just like the Conservatives but with none of the calories!"
Don't rock the boat. That's all I ever hear when I read between the lines. I can't believe that people still swallow the line that the problem with Conservative Britain is that the Labour Party isn't enough like the Conservative Party. [Post edited 2 Feb 2021 20:59]
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:59 - Feb 2 with 495 views | J2BLUE |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:58 - Feb 2 by SpruceMoose |
If you want to talk problem worldviews, I'd probably point to some folk wanting us to keep doing the same exact stuff over and over again that we've been trying for decades, and then acting in disbelief when we see the same exact results that we've got for decades.
I'd say that's the actual problem we are living through right now, and is sure as sh!t a larger one than than me not wanting the Labour Party to go down the road of saying 'Hey vote for us! We're just like the Conservatives but with none of the calories!"
Don't rock the boat. That's all I ever hear when I read between the lines. I can't believe that people still swallow the line that the problem with Conservative Britain is that the Labour Party isn't enough like the Conservative Party. [Post edited 2 Feb 2021 20:59]
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We'll have to agree to disagree. I really don't understand your stance.
We're just like the Conservatives but with none of the calories!
Er what? This just isn't what i'm saying at all. | |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:00 - Feb 2 with 494 views | m14_blue |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:58 - Feb 2 by SpruceMoose |
If you want to talk problem worldviews, I'd probably point to some folk wanting us to keep doing the same exact stuff over and over again that we've been trying for decades, and then acting in disbelief when we see the same exact results that we've got for decades.
I'd say that's the actual problem we are living through right now, and is sure as sh!t a larger one than than me not wanting the Labour Party to go down the road of saying 'Hey vote for us! We're just like the Conservatives but with none of the calories!"
Don't rock the boat. That's all I ever hear when I read between the lines. I can't believe that people still swallow the line that the problem with Conservative Britain is that the Labour Party isn't enough like the Conservative Party. [Post edited 2 Feb 2021 20:59]
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Except they tried something completely different for the last 2 elections and look where that got us. | | | |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:01 - Feb 2 with 488 views | SpruceMoose |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:51 - Feb 2 by Sarge |
Whether they’re cheap and hollow is irrelevant. The majority of public that vote cast their vote for the Tories. It can be argued therefore that the majority of people that vote are thick as sh1t. If including national symbolism more is what’s required to get those people on your side so that you can be in a position to enact your thoughtful and substantive policies, then so be it.
That aside, criticising something that isn’t bad because it has been hijacked by something that is bad is not a perspective that would be tolerated on many other subjects. |
Why on earth do you think those people are going to want to see Labour implement thoughtful and substantive policies once they've got over the novelty of seeing Starmer with a flag? No doubt, when there's an election into the horizon these so called thoughtful and substantive policies will just kicked into the weeds. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:01 - Feb 2 with 487 views | J2BLUE |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:00 - Feb 2 by m14_blue |
Except they tried something completely different for the last 2 elections and look where that got us. |
This is the point isn't it? To get elected you need to make some compromises to your position. We're not talking Tories 2.0 or 'Tories lite'. | |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:01 - Feb 2 with 482 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Well at least I noticed...fundamental societal change we can believe in!
So, as I said vacuous tosh! |  |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:02 - Feb 2 with 483 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
One day we will all have summer houses....got yours yet? | |
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