| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:03 - Feb 2 with 555 views | SpruceMoose |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:59 - Feb 2 by J2BLUE |
We'll have to agree to disagree. I really don't understand your stance.
We're just like the Conservatives but with none of the calories!
Er what? This just isn't what i'm saying at all. |
Perhaps you're not explaining yourself very well then. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:03 - Feb 2 with 554 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 19:56 - Feb 2 by J2BLUE |
Nothing wrong with patriotism. It's not nationalism.
Need to push back against the Corbyn hates Britain nonsense. |
Care to show your real world working out on this one? |  |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:05 - Feb 2 with 551 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:07 - Feb 2 by SpruceMoose |
Why bother? The right will only just invent some other imagined smear to screech from the rooftops. If it's not hating Britain it's not being able to eat a bacon sandwich.
The left needs to stop playing by the rules the right sets. They are never going to out Tory the Tories. Offer a credible alternative, not a sh!t tribute act. |
...and yet you called me out when I pointed this out weeks ago, bizarre! | |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:05 - Feb 2 with 549 views | Sarge |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:01 - Feb 2 by SpruceMoose |
Why on earth do you think those people are going to want to see Labour implement thoughtful and substantive policies once they've got over the novelty of seeing Starmer with a flag? No doubt, when there's an election into the horizon these so called thoughtful and substantive policies will just kicked into the weeds. |
They’re clearly not interested in policies are they, because they’re casting their vote for Boris & Co. but it doesn’t matter. In British politics it’s all about numbers to get you over the line. Once you’ve got those numbers you can more or less do what you want.
52% of people were promised £350m a week to the NHS. They aren’t going to get it but at the same time they’ve resisted any attempt to and shown little interest in changing their decision. Wave the flag hardest and No.10 is yours. |  | | |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:07 - Feb 2 with 544 views | SpruceMoose |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:00 - Feb 2 by m14_blue |
Except they tried something completely different for the last 2 elections and look where that got us. |
No doubt a Conservative Lite version of Labour will end up in power one of these days and nothing will change, and everyone in the middle will get to bring out the 'Who could possibly have foreseen?!' act. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:07 - Feb 2 with 542 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:31 - Feb 2 by SpruceMoose |
Always been fodder for his party, I think he meant. |
Take some time to read up on Attlee’s “social patriotism” of the 1940’s or Orwell’s “The Lion and the Unicorn”
Or more recently Billy Bragg’s book The Progressive Patriot, in which he wrote “Reluctant to make any concessions to reactionary nationalism, we have, by default, created a vacuum, leaving it to the likes of the BNP and the Daily Mail to decide who does and who doesn’t belong here.”
J2 is echoed by the words of Charles de Gaulle, who once said, “Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.”
He’s spot on. |  |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:08 - Feb 2 with 539 views | SpruceMoose |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:05 - Feb 2 by BanksterDebtSlave |
...and yet you called me out when I pointed this out weeks ago, bizarre! |
I reckon we'd see eye to eye about most stuff over a pint.
I'm just a cantankerous and miserable git.
Take me as you find me. If you can't take me at my worst then tough, I have no best side  | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:08 - Feb 2 with 538 views | J2BLUE |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:03 - Feb 2 by SpruceMoose |
Perhaps you're not explaining yourself very well then. |
I think i'm making perfect sense, but this is TWTD so soon the usual cast will come along to assure you you're right and it's better to lose with a manifesto most people won't vote for than make a few minor alterations to give you the best chance.
To give you the benefit of the doubt maybe you're afraid we're becoming America. I don't think we are though. Starmer can set up like this and then hopefully beat the Tories with his policies. Why allow the media to keep attacking on the hating Britain point when it can be so easily rectified?
Compromises will have to be made to get elected. You can lose with a pure manifesto or you can give yourself a chance with a few minor alterations and make things better.
I know we both agree that another five year of Johnson after his first term would be pretty crap. |  |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:09 - Feb 2 with 535 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:14 - Feb 2 by footers |
Ah, so this is what Keir's been busy with. Government by PR firms and focus groups. Great. |
Vacuous tosser! | |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:09 - Feb 2 with 535 views | m14_blue |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:07 - Feb 2 by SpruceMoose |
No doubt a Conservative Lite version of Labour will end up in power one of these days and nothing will change, and everyone in the middle will get to bring out the 'Who could possibly have foreseen?!' act. |
I’m sorry, but if you think a Labour Starmer government would be the same as the current shower then we’ll just have to agree to disagree, there’s no reasoning with that. | | | |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:09 - Feb 2 with 538 views | thebooks |
Aditya Chakrabortty – who I think is the left’s best newspaper columnist in the UK, and no Corbyn fan – has already published something on this. Worth a read:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/02/keir-starmer-patriot-act-risks-
“But in the meantime it raises two questions for all progressives in the UK: if the main party of the left seeks to walk like the right and talk like the right, then what precisely is the point of the main party of the left?”
Which is how voters will see it, I would bet. |  | | |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:10 - Feb 2 with 527 views | footers |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:07 - Feb 2 by GlasgowBlue |
Take some time to read up on Attlee’s “social patriotism” of the 1940’s or Orwell’s “The Lion and the Unicorn”
Or more recently Billy Bragg’s book The Progressive Patriot, in which he wrote “Reluctant to make any concessions to reactionary nationalism, we have, by default, created a vacuum, leaving it to the likes of the BNP and the Daily Mail to decide who does and who doesn’t belong here.”
J2 is echoed by the words of Charles de Gaulle, who once said, “Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.”
He’s spot on. |
You mean like the five minutes on Google you just spent researching 'lefitsts and English patriotism' or something.
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:12 - Feb 2 with 518 views | J2BLUE |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:03 - Feb 2 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Care to show your real world working out on this one? |
Which bit are you struggling with? There's nothing wrong with being patriotic. One of the criticisms of your man Corbyn was that he hated Britain. An unfair and silly smear I think we'll agree. Didn't stop many people believing it though. Starmer sat next to him on the opposition bench. This is just part of his i'm not Corbyn message. Something which you must surely realise by now makes him more electable? | |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:12 - Feb 2 with 522 views | itfcjoe |
Nothing wrong with the flag, or being proud of the flag of the country you wish to lead.
Rather this than Emily Thornberry slating someone for flying the flag of St George or Corbyn’s lot preferring yo wave the Palestinian flag than the Union Jack |  |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:12 - Feb 2 with 517 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:15 - Feb 2 by GlasgowBlue |
Does the Welsh first minister make announcements in front of the Baner Cymru?
Nicola Sturgeon would look out of place not standing next the the Saltire. And quite right too. She’s a Scottish patriot. Oh and a nationalist. |
That’s not what this is about though. And Labour do that already:
https://www.falmouthpacket.co.uk/resources/images/12198987.jpg?display=1&hty
This is more about trying to engage with the increasing nationalist elements who believed the right wing tabloid smears about Corbyn not wearing the right coat, or not bowing deep enough at the Cenotaph. Or Starmer wearing the wrong colour tie. It’s about trying to ride on the coat tails of English and British exceptionalism that plagues the country right now.
I can understand the appeal, but it’s lazy and crass. It won’t help anyone. The Labour Party seem to recognise the issues with these suggestions at least, so I doubt they’ll be fully implemented.
I do agree with the claim that Labour don’t have an identity though. I just don’t think this is a good way to go about it. They’d be better of finding some values and some clear policies based on them. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe this is what the voters want and the antidote to brain dead nationalist exceptionalism is more nationalist exceptionalism. If it is we deserve all we get. |  |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:12 - Feb 2 with 517 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:09 - Feb 2 by GlasgowBlue |
Hardly rebranding of the Labour Party. Attlee was a founding father of NATO and fiercely patriotic.
Labour has traditionally been the party of the working class. The working class have always been patriotic.
It’s something the last leader didn’t understand. Traditional labour voters thought he was more interested in what was going in in the Middle East than the middle of Yorkshire.
His eagerness to give Russia the benefit of doubt, against our own security services intelligence, in the aftermath of the Salisbury poisoning is cited as the beginning of him losing the 2019 General Election.
We celebrate Scottish, Irish and Welsh patriotism yet look down our noses on English or British patriotism. [Post edited 2 Feb 2021 20:11]
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Would this be "the" working class like "the" Jewish community! Is it patriotism or cap doffing that you are really thinking of?
"I bid you good day!" | |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:12 - Feb 2 with 516 views | thebooks |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:07 - Feb 2 by GlasgowBlue |
Take some time to read up on Attlee’s “social patriotism” of the 1940’s or Orwell’s “The Lion and the Unicorn”
Or more recently Billy Bragg’s book The Progressive Patriot, in which he wrote “Reluctant to make any concessions to reactionary nationalism, we have, by default, created a vacuum, leaving it to the likes of the BNP and the Daily Mail to decide who does and who doesn’t belong here.”
J2 is echoed by the words of Charles de Gaulle, who once said, “Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.”
He’s spot on. |
Prefer “patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel” myself. | | | |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:13 - Feb 2 with 512 views | SpruceMoose |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:07 - Feb 2 by GlasgowBlue |
Take some time to read up on Attlee’s “social patriotism” of the 1940’s or Orwell’s “The Lion and the Unicorn”
Or more recently Billy Bragg’s book The Progressive Patriot, in which he wrote “Reluctant to make any concessions to reactionary nationalism, we have, by default, created a vacuum, leaving it to the likes of the BNP and the Daily Mail to decide who does and who doesn’t belong here.”
J2 is echoed by the words of Charles de Gaulle, who once said, “Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.”
He’s spot on. |
Thanks for the patronising book club recommendations GB, appreciate it. Nice to see that you're picking up something more substantial than Bild these days. [Post edited 3 Feb 2021 1:29]
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:14 - Feb 2 with 503 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:59 - Feb 2 by J2BLUE |
We'll have to agree to disagree. I really don't understand your stance.
We're just like the Conservatives but with none of the calories!
Er what? This just isn't what i'm saying at all. |
Im reminded of something I posted a while ago.
A quick guide to the progressive left of 2021.
Left-wing people in the olden days
Left-wing people used to like working-class people.
Lots of left-wing people used to be working-class people. These people were known as socialists and joined trade unions.
Sometimes working-class people used to frighten left-wing people, but they pretended that they weren’t frightened and were nice to them.
Left-wing people supported working-class people, gave them money, sat in rooms with them and wore badges to show that they cared more than right-wing people, who wore ties instead of badges and didn’t care.
Nowadays
Nowadays, working-class people are bored with socialism because it hasn’t made them rich and happy.
Nowadays left-wing people are middle-class people. Working class people are a big disappointment to left-wing people.
Left wing people now think that working class people are:
a) Simple and easily led
b) Un-enlightened and susceptible to short-term pleasures
c) Terribly sad and struggling, unable to cope on their own
d) All of the above
Education is a life-long task
Left-wing people think that working-class people are unable to think for themselves and require life-long education to help them make informed decisions.
Left-wing people work tirelessly on education programmes to encourage working class people to buy expensive food and clothes and not cheap food and clothes. They are disappointed that working-class people are un-ethical.
Working-class people like to drink alcohol, have sex and eat tasty food. They do not understand that these activities are dangerous and need continuous education from left-wing people.
Working-class people need to be protected from newspapers, even though they don’t read them anymore. They are easily influenced and their happy-go-lucky ways can be turned into bigoted nasty ways. Left-wing people are needed to help them use Facebook carefully and not make mistakes.
Left-wing people like to be sad and unhappy
Many left-wing people have a very nice life, but they like to be sad. To help with this, they choose to be sad for other people. Sometimes these people are far away and sometimes they are nearby, but different to them.
In the olden days, left-wing people tried to make it better for other people. Nowadays, they like to protect them by being offended when a working-class person doesn’t behave properly.
Left-wing like to help other people by being offended on their behalf. This means that the other people can carry on with their lives and the left-wing people do all the work. This isn’t really fair, but the left-wing people seem to carry on doing it, so they must enjoy it. Despite all this effort left-wing people are still very sad.
Again, Orwell summed it up many years ago.
I have known numbers of middle class Socialists, I have listened by the hour to their tirades against their own class, and yet never, not even once, have I met one who had picked up proletarian table-manners. In his heart he feels that proletarian manners are disgusting…he hates, fears, and despises the working class. | |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:15 - Feb 2 with 506 views | footers |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:12 - Feb 2 by itfcjoe |
Nothing wrong with the flag, or being proud of the flag of the country you wish to lead.
Rather this than Emily Thornberry slating someone for flying the flag of St George or Corbyn’s lot preferring yo wave the Palestinian flag than the Union Jack |
Again with the lazy 'the left only care about Palestine, they don't care about working Brits' nonsense. | |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:15 - Feb 2 with 497 views | J2BLUE |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:13 - Feb 2 by SpruceMoose |
Thanks for the patronising book club recommendations GB, appreciate it. Nice to see that you're picking up something more substantial than Bild these days. [Post edited 3 Feb 2021 1:29]
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Dolly has upvoted GB
The end of days is upon us. | |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:17 - Feb 2 with 491 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:47 - Feb 2 by SpruceMoose |
So, if you can't beat the Tories just join them? Many people are also clearly taken in by not providing food to needy school kids and cutting local services to the bone. Should Labour go after their votes too by offering the same as the Conservatives? What's the point of getting Labour into power if they just deliver the same things as the Conservatives?
Sorry, no. They have a responsibility towards the people who aren't happy to just vote Conservatives and then act shocked at why the country slips further down the pan.
It's just another step on the ladder we've been climbing towards absolute vapidity and emptiness in our politics. Why not just stick Johnson and Starmer on Britain's Got Talent and whoever can pull of the best soft-shoe gets to run the country and be done with it. [Post edited 2 Feb 2021 20:51]
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No-one's joining the Tories or offering the same as them. You can still have different, and better, and more progressive policies while adding a few symbols to the mix to hammer home that you do indeed love your country, as a short cut for the hard of thinking. Labour need to appeal to these types AS WELL AS offering a viable alternative in terms of policies. It's not either or.
You're getting worked up about nothing. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:18 - Feb 2 with 490 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:24 - Feb 2 by J2BLUE |
I don't. They don't own the flag of my country. I don't recognise it as their symbol. It's just a flag. |
It really isn't, it is soaked in the blood of our history and clung to by morons..heh, I know maybe Starmer could show what a visionary he is and push for a new one! | |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:18 - Feb 2 with 485 views | SpruceMoose |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:08 - Feb 2 by J2BLUE |
I think i'm making perfect sense, but this is TWTD so soon the usual cast will come along to assure you you're right and it's better to lose with a manifesto most people won't vote for than make a few minor alterations to give you the best chance.
To give you the benefit of the doubt maybe you're afraid we're becoming America. I don't think we are though. Starmer can set up like this and then hopefully beat the Tories with his policies. Why allow the media to keep attacking on the hating Britain point when it can be so easily rectified?
Compromises will have to be made to get elected. You can lose with a pure manifesto or you can give yourself a chance with a few minor alterations and make things better.
I know we both agree that another five year of Johnson after his first term would be pretty crap. |
For Lord's sake J2, don't go all Paz on me. Nothing of the sort is happening. It's just a discussion, a polite one at that. The only person trying to stir the pot here is GB waving his Oprah's book of the month club credentials around. I'm quite content to ignore him if you would like to proceed respectfully?
Does it not concern you were the compromises are made? Sure, maybe you don't find this a step in the wrong direction, I can accept that. I don't think you and I are aligned in our world view so that's to be expected. But about when compromises are made on the things you do worry about, and before you know it, you have nobody left to vote for? Take Gibbers for example, once his party stopped doing all the lovely Conservative stuff he had spent a lifetime fully approving of, he had nobody left to vote for.
Would your response to him be to stuck it up and vote for them anyway? | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:19 - Feb 2 with 485 views | J2BLUE |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:12 - Feb 2 by itfcjoe |
Nothing wrong with the flag, or being proud of the flag of the country you wish to lead.
Rather this than Emily Thornberry slating someone for flying the flag of St George or Corbyn’s lot preferring yo wave the Palestinian flag than the Union Jack |
I agree the flag waving is a bit odd. By all means make it part of the manifesto. 99% of people probably wouldn't even notice it but to sit there waving the flags looks very odd. I'd be surprised if Starmer allowed that to continue. | |
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