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Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:36 - Feb 2 by SpruceMoose
I'm not here to answer on behalf of the dozens of other posters GB tangles with. I'm not interested in discussing that. I'm just pointing out that his contributions to this thread haven't exactly been filled with warmth and good spirit. A different approach may indeed bring about different results.
As to the rest of your post - fair enough J2. We will pick it up again come election time and see how the cards have fallen then.
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:21 - Feb 2 by J2BLUE
No it isn't.
On a side note, many years ago I posted on here that I might do my dissertation on whether the British empire should be something we're proud of or ashamed by. I was absolutely DESTROYED. How times change.
What, for being ashamed! Sorry I didn't join earlier...I have spent my entire life being ahead of the curve!
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:14 - Feb 2 by GlasgowBlue
Im reminded of something I posted a while ago.
A quick guide to the progressive left of 2021.
Left-wing people in the olden days
Left-wing people used to like working-class people.
Lots of left-wing people used to be working-class people. These people were known as socialists and joined trade unions.
Sometimes working-class people used to frighten left-wing people, but they pretended that they weren’t frightened and were nice to them.
Left-wing people supported working-class people, gave them money, sat in rooms with them and wore badges to show that they cared more than right-wing people, who wore ties instead of badges and didn’t care.
Nowadays
Nowadays, working-class people are bored with socialism because it hasn’t made them rich and happy.
Nowadays left-wing people are middle-class people. Working class people are a big disappointment to left-wing people.
Left wing people now think that working class people are: a) Simple and easily led b) Un-enlightened and susceptible to short-term pleasures c) Terribly sad and struggling, unable to cope on their own d) All of the above
Education is a life-long task
Left-wing people think that working-class people are unable to think for themselves and require life-long education to help them make informed decisions.
Left-wing people work tirelessly on education programmes to encourage working class people to buy expensive food and clothes and not cheap food and clothes. They are disappointed that working-class people are un-ethical.
Working-class people like to drink alcohol, have sex and eat tasty food. They do not understand that these activities are dangerous and need continuous education from left-wing people.
Working-class people need to be protected from newspapers, even though they don’t read them anymore. They are easily influenced and their happy-go-lucky ways can be turned into bigoted nasty ways. Left-wing people are needed to help them use Facebook carefully and not make mistakes.
Left-wing people like to be sad and unhappy
Many left-wing people have a very nice life, but they like to be sad. To help with this, they choose to be sad for other people. Sometimes these people are far away and sometimes they are nearby, but different to them.
In the olden days, left-wing people tried to make it better for other people. Nowadays, they like to protect them by being offended when a working-class person doesn’t behave properly.
Left-wing like to help other people by being offended on their behalf. This means that the other people can carry on with their lives and the left-wing people do all the work. This isn’t really fair, but the left-wing people seem to carry on doing it, so they must enjoy it. Despite all this effort left-wing people are still very sad.
Again, Orwell summed it up many years ago.
I have known numbers of middle class Socialists, I have listened by the hour to their tirades against their own class, and yet never, not even once, have I met one who had picked up proletarian table-manners. In his heart he feels that proletarian manners are disgusting…he hates, fears, and despises the working class.
What a load of patronising nonsense. Have you forgotten already how our populist nationalist right wing politicians have just spent the last 5 years treating the working class with utter contempt? Lying to them, misleading them, treating them like fools, deflecting blame for political failures on to foreigners and turning us all against our neighbours, using the working classes for personal and political gain.
All against a background of 10 years of systematically dismantling their safeguards, running down essential public services, expanding the gig economy that exploits the poorer the most. Overseeing a rise in inequality, food bank usage, homelessness, etc. And then throw in a disastrous covid response that has impacted the poorer worse in both health and wealth outcomes.
It’s shameless to make out the opposition is the real enemy of the working class. Disingenuous and pretty disgusting. And I’m not even a socialist. I bet those who are will find this insulting (or laugh at it).
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:44 - Feb 2 by BanksterDebtSlave
What, for being ashamed! Sorry I didn't join earlier...I have spent my entire life being ahead of the curve!
You can question our past without obsessing over it and associating a flag with it. Our past is filled with some horrific stuff. We can only try and do better. In 2021 the British government will use its power to build a greener world, provide vaccines to other countries, fund the WHO and many other good things.
Of course we aren't perfect. The cut in foreign aid isn't exactly a highlight.
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:28 - Feb 2 by itfcjoe
"The labour movement has itself sowed some of the seeds of this problem by traditionally sidelining groups beyond the stereotypical working man. But nowadays more of us are middle class, and middle-class self-interest has also found its way into progressive politics. There was always a section of the left that viewed the working class in purely instrumental terms. They were a weapon to be wielded against the bourgeoisie rather than human beings who required liberation. These types of activists were motivated more by a detestation of others than by any real sympathy with the poor. Nowadays, they are less likely to be seen on a picket line than at a demonstration outside the Israeli Embassy. The deserving poor are over there — in Cuba, in Palestine, or in another exotic-seeming land. Thus there is much less interest in class politics, and this left sits amicably alongside a middle-class liberalism that does as liberalism does — trembles with a slight terror at the prospect of genuine equality between the classes."
There is truth in that. Is it about Derek Hatton?
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:38 - Feb 2 by The_Flashing_Smile
Essentially the same as J2's, atractordownsouth's and others - that this isn't a big deal, isn't a compromise of Labour's beliefs, doesn't preclude them from having decent policies and actually makes a lot of sense.
Ok, I suppose what I am getting at, and I will begin by saying that I don't actually have much of a solution to this, is this.
How much are you prepared to compromise your political beliefs for the sake of power by attempting to occupy a space that your philosophical opposites sit in?
I don't think I deserve stick for having a little bit of a grumble that the population of the UK has drifted far more to the right than I am, and as such I have no real hope of ever seeing the kind of government I'd like to see.
I can accept that I am currently out of step with the country, I can accept that the majority is getting exactly what they want, but I don't have to like it. I also don't have to support a plan that, to me, looks like the beginnings of a Labour Party intending to drift ever further to the right in search of power.
My question is - for what purpose do they want power? If it is just to appeal to the same voters who are currently loving the Conservative offering... where are we going to get these thoughtful, progressive and non-punitive polices from? Maybe that's just the way the UK is now. If so, good luck to you guys.
People vote for the kind of country they want. If they want the one they've been building from New Labour to now then that's what they'll have. They shouldn't be surprised that the same things happen time and time again though.
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:29 - Feb 2 by tractordownsouth
I agree with what J2 said - the embrace of the flag is harmless, it's done in Wales and Scotland and nobody bats an eyelids. The stuff about Labour being anti-British isn't true but the perception has to be tackled at the end of the day, so if it's one step towards winning back voters then I've no problem with it. I think it's time to reclaim the flag from the far-right - personally I don't give a toss if Starmer stands in front of a flag or not, but I'd much rather someone like him be associated with the image rather than a racist gobsh1te like Farage or Yaxley-Lennon.
Of course, it has to be combined with substance, something that has recently been brought forward with Starmer's commitment to votes at 16, and will conitnue to be developed. If Labour starts advocating austerity and copying Tory economic policies then I'll resign my membership, but to be economically left wing as well as countering this anti-British perception will put the party back in step with many of the voters it lost in 2019.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that I don't think anyone is going to vote against Labour because of the flag, whereas it will go a small way towards winning people over so I don't see what there is to lose.
I find it very unlikely that I will vote for them but it won't be because of the flag. GB might though so happy days!
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:38 - Feb 2 by GlasgowBlue
I think they gotten rather bored of Paz and are looking for a rather more satisfying pile on.
Unfortunate for them, I neither have the time nor inclination to go ten pages with them.
Mate, you always have time. Who are you kidding!? You're no better than the rest of us. This week alone I've seen you calling another poster a knut. You're definitely no better than the rest of us, in fact, you can be a lot worse!
Just embrace it!
Anyhow, I shall bid thee a good night.
[Post edited 2 Feb 2021 21:55]
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:31 - Feb 2 by The_Flashing_Smile
If Labour do start making compromising policies to become Tory-lite I'll be right with you. All I can see so far is they've added a bit of symbolism to their armoury. Seems sensible to me.
Which policies have really grabbed your attention?
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:34 - Feb 2 by J2BLUE
It's always going to be our flag. We can keep talking about the past or we can try and be better in the future. Can I assume you'd be up for changing the flag and disowning it because of our past?
Heck, why not!
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:51 - Feb 2 by SpruceMoose
Ok, I suppose what I am getting at, and I will begin by saying that I don't actually have much of a solution to this, is this.
How much are you prepared to compromise your political beliefs for the sake of power by attempting to occupy a space that your philosophical opposites sit in?
I don't think I deserve stick for having a little bit of a grumble that the population of the UK has drifted far more to the right than I am, and as such I have no real hope of ever seeing the kind of government I'd like to see.
I can accept that I am currently out of step with the country, I can accept that the majority is getting exactly what they want, but I don't have to like it. I also don't have to support a plan that, to me, looks like the beginnings of a Labour Party intending to drift ever further to the right in search of power.
My question is - for what purpose do they want power? If it is just to appeal to the same voters who are currently loving the Conservative offering... where are we going to get these thoughtful, progressive and non-punitive polices from? Maybe that's just the way the UK is now. If so, good luck to you guys.
People vote for the kind of country they want. If they want the one they've been building from New Labour to now then that's what they'll have. They shouldn't be surprised that the same things happen time and time again though.
That's a much better post. I understand your position and concerns much more clearly now.
I agree with you. I just don't think this is the first step on becoming Tories 2.0. We need to remember though that the centre is to the right of the left and Starmer seems to understand that the centre is the path to power. So we won't see many of Corbyn's policies. The next Labour government is likely to be a step nearer the centre ground than the Tories. Anything else and they won't get the chance to win and improve things. It's not ideal but it's what has to be done. The last two elections prove that.
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:56 - Feb 2 by J2BLUE
That's a much better post. I understand your position and concerns much more clearly now.
I agree with you. I just don't think this is the first step on becoming Tories 2.0. We need to remember though that the centre is to the right of the left and Starmer seems to understand that the centre is the path to power. So we won't see many of Corbyn's policies. The next Labour government is likely to be a step nearer the centre ground than the Tories. Anything else and they won't get the chance to win and improve things. It's not ideal but it's what has to be done. The last two elections prove that.
Have to log off now, cheers for your thoughts J2.
I'll end by saying I don't have much faith in placing my future in the hands of the centre to be honest. I don't think that the there is the urgency in those of the centre to tackle the problems we need to tackle inthe timeframe we need to tackle them in. It'll just be more of the same, but like I said, that seems to be what the people want, so I don't know what to do about that.
Enjoy the rest of your evening.
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:53 - Feb 2 by SpruceMoose
Mate, you always have time. Who are you kidding!? You're no better than the rest of us. This week alone I've seen you calling another poster a knut. You're definitely no better than the rest of us, in fact, you can be a lot worse!
Just embrace it!
Anyhow, I shall bid thee a good night.
[Post edited 2 Feb 2021 21:55]
He knows when he is losing an argument but never quite knows how to admit it!
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 22:00 - Feb 2 by SpruceMoose
Have to log off now, cheers for your thoughts J2.
I'll end by saying I don't have much faith in placing my future in the hands of the centre to be honest. I don't think that the there is the urgency in those of the centre to tackle the problems we need to tackle inthe timeframe we need to tackle them in. It'll just be more of the same, but like I said, that seems to be what the people want, so I don't know what to do about that.
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:36 - Feb 2 by SpruceMoose
Sorry J2, I just don't agree with any of that.
It's cheap and it treats people like idiots.
I am not sure that enough people will accept a radical alternative that you yearn for because:
1) They won't understand most of it 2) They are selfish and feel they earnt their money so why should they be taxed more on it 3) The media will tell them it's communist 4) Quite a few people do actually seem to be idiots
So if we hold these things to be true then unfortunately in order to enact change little tactics like this might be required. A new paradigm can be pushed by Labour but it can also be framed within other things if it helps, sometimes you have to appeal to the idiots even if they don't understand the underlying arguments.
I don't think detracts from the core who will be more focused on policies anyway so their vote is assured.
It's sad but it's pragmatic.
SB
2
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 22:10 - Feb 2 with 2335 views
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:14 - Feb 2 by GlasgowBlue
Im reminded of something I posted a while ago.
A quick guide to the progressive left of 2021.
Left-wing people in the olden days
Left-wing people used to like working-class people.
Lots of left-wing people used to be working-class people. These people were known as socialists and joined trade unions.
Sometimes working-class people used to frighten left-wing people, but they pretended that they weren’t frightened and were nice to them.
Left-wing people supported working-class people, gave them money, sat in rooms with them and wore badges to show that they cared more than right-wing people, who wore ties instead of badges and didn’t care.
Nowadays
Nowadays, working-class people are bored with socialism because it hasn’t made them rich and happy.
Nowadays left-wing people are middle-class people. Working class people are a big disappointment to left-wing people.
Left wing people now think that working class people are: a) Simple and easily led b) Un-enlightened and susceptible to short-term pleasures c) Terribly sad and struggling, unable to cope on their own d) All of the above
Education is a life-long task
Left-wing people think that working-class people are unable to think for themselves and require life-long education to help them make informed decisions.
Left-wing people work tirelessly on education programmes to encourage working class people to buy expensive food and clothes and not cheap food and clothes. They are disappointed that working-class people are un-ethical.
Working-class people like to drink alcohol, have sex and eat tasty food. They do not understand that these activities are dangerous and need continuous education from left-wing people.
Working-class people need to be protected from newspapers, even though they don’t read them anymore. They are easily influenced and their happy-go-lucky ways can be turned into bigoted nasty ways. Left-wing people are needed to help them use Facebook carefully and not make mistakes.
Left-wing people like to be sad and unhappy
Many left-wing people have a very nice life, but they like to be sad. To help with this, they choose to be sad for other people. Sometimes these people are far away and sometimes they are nearby, but different to them.
In the olden days, left-wing people tried to make it better for other people. Nowadays, they like to protect them by being offended when a working-class person doesn’t behave properly.
Left-wing like to help other people by being offended on their behalf. This means that the other people can carry on with their lives and the left-wing people do all the work. This isn’t really fair, but the left-wing people seem to carry on doing it, so they must enjoy it. Despite all this effort left-wing people are still very sad.
Again, Orwell summed it up many years ago.
I have known numbers of middle class Socialists, I have listened by the hour to their tirades against their own class, and yet never, not even once, have I met one who had picked up proletarian table-manners. In his heart he feels that proletarian manners are disgusting…he hates, fears, and despises the working class.
I think all this highlights is the danger of pigeonholing people.
SB
1
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 22:20 - Feb 2 with 2316 views
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:00 - Feb 2 by m14_blue
Except they tried something completely different for the last 2 elections and look where that got us.
I think the issue was not so much with what the party offered differently as to who the leader was. I know people who voted Labour for the first time ever in 2017 (in spite of Corbyn) because the party had some very decent policies (renationalising the railways, free uni tuition etc).
A winning combination (IMO) is something like the 2017 manifesto plus a non-London based leader who is difficult to accuse of being unpatriotic. None of the candidates in the last leadership election really fitted that criteria.
I wonder whether there's a place for an English equivalent to the SNP - not the UKIP-esque English Democrats, but a left-wing civic nationalist party. Even if it doesn't do that well, it could act as a spoiler for the Conservatives by picking up the votes of the type of people that have started voting for the Tories since we started going down the culture war road, or people (and I'm thinking particularly rural people) who vote Tory mainly because they're brought up to hate Labour, despite supporting more Labour-type policies.
1
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 22:23 - Feb 2 with 2304 views
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:58 - Feb 2 by SpruceMoose
If you want to talk problem worldviews, I'd probably point to some folk wanting us to keep doing the same exact stuff over and over again that we've been trying for decades, and then acting in disbelief when we see the same exact results that we've got for decades.
I'd say that's the actual problem we are living through right now, and is sure as sh!t a larger one than than me not wanting the Labour Party to go down the road of saying 'Hey vote for us! We're just like the Conservatives but with none of the calories!"
Don't rock the boat. That's all I ever hear when I read between the lines. I can't believe that people still swallow the line that the problem with Conservative Britain is that the Labour Party isn't enough like the Conservative Party.
[Post edited 2 Feb 2021 20:59]
I don't think anyone would claim that Joe Biden campaigned on a radical platform- but it was good enough to get rid of Trump, and the whole world is grateful for that.
Starmer clearly isn't radical enough for many on here- but, my god, anything that gets rid of Johnson and co. is good enough right now; even more so in 4 years.
2
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 22:33 - Feb 2 with 2272 views
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 22:23 - Feb 2 by Funge
I don't think anyone would claim that Joe Biden campaigned on a radical platform- but it was good enough to get rid of Trump, and the whole world is grateful for that.
Starmer clearly isn't radical enough for many on here- but, my god, anything that gets rid of Johnson and co. is good enough right now; even more so in 4 years.
It wasn't returning Trump voters or moderates who solely won the election for Biden though (although obviously persuading any of them over to the Democrat side wouldn't have hurt).
What got Biden over the line was the progressive wing of the party and their efforts in actually trying to engage with unregistered minority voters, registering them to vote, listening to their concerns and making them feel heard. Maybe something for Labour to ponder there.
Anyhow, it's a different election system. In a popular vote situation the Republicans would never set foot in office again. Their policies aren't remotely popular with the vast majority of the country.
[Post edited 2 Feb 2021 22:33]
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:51 - Feb 2 by SpruceMoose
Ok, I suppose what I am getting at, and I will begin by saying that I don't actually have much of a solution to this, is this.
How much are you prepared to compromise your political beliefs for the sake of power by attempting to occupy a space that your philosophical opposites sit in?
I don't think I deserve stick for having a little bit of a grumble that the population of the UK has drifted far more to the right than I am, and as such I have no real hope of ever seeing the kind of government I'd like to see.
I can accept that I am currently out of step with the country, I can accept that the majority is getting exactly what they want, but I don't have to like it. I also don't have to support a plan that, to me, looks like the beginnings of a Labour Party intending to drift ever further to the right in search of power.
My question is - for what purpose do they want power? If it is just to appeal to the same voters who are currently loving the Conservative offering... where are we going to get these thoughtful, progressive and non-punitive polices from? Maybe that's just the way the UK is now. If so, good luck to you guys.
People vote for the kind of country they want. If they want the one they've been building from New Labour to now then that's what they'll have. They shouldn't be surprised that the same things happen time and time again though.
I think you're conflating a lot onto what at the moment is just having a flag in the background.
As I said earlier, if they start compromising their beliefs and policies I'd be right there with you.
Essentially you think this is the beginnings of a slippery slope; I, J2 and others think there's no evidence for that, and that it's just a sensible use of a bit of symbolism, which is designed to address the fact that some see the Labour party as anti-UK.
Trust the process. Trust Phil.
0
Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 22:42 - Feb 2 with 2240 views
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