| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 23:13 - Feb 2 with 999 views | factual_blue |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:02 - Feb 2 by BanksterDebtSlave |
One day we will all have summer houses....got yours yet? |
Mine's finest cedar. |  |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 23:39 - Feb 2 with 971 views | vapour_trail |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:38 - Feb 2 by GlasgowBlue |
I think they gotten rather bored of Paz and are looking for a rather more satisfying pile on.
Unfortunate for them, I neither have the time nor inclination to go ten pages with them. |
What horsesh1t.
You invented the ten page borefest on here and in the absence of a political career, have been desperate to keep the dance going on these pages, with a plethora of partners over the last two decades.
To our collective detriment. |  |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 23:46 - Feb 2 with 950 views | monytowbray |
Queen Shaggers are a target audience.
Yay for the centre slipping more right again. But the left, etc. |  |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 00:40 - Feb 3 with 914 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:09 - Feb 2 by GlasgowBlue |
Hardly rebranding of the Labour Party. Attlee was a founding father of NATO and fiercely patriotic.
Labour has traditionally been the party of the working class. The working class have always been patriotic.
It’s something the last leader didn’t understand. Traditional labour voters thought he was more interested in what was going in in the Middle East than the middle of Yorkshire.
His eagerness to give Russia the benefit of doubt, against our own security services intelligence, in the aftermath of the Salisbury poisoning is cited as the beginning of him losing the 2019 General Election.
We celebrate Scottish, Irish and Welsh patriotism yet look down our noses on English or British patriotism. [Post edited 2 Feb 2021 20:11]
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"We celebrate Scottish, Irish and Welsh patriotism yet look down our noses on English or British patriotism."
Couldn't have said it better myself. I love a bit of British patriotism. We should be proud of our past... what, with the subjugation of 20% of the world's population, the transatlantic slave trade, concentration camps (Boer), massacres (Amritsar), avoidable famines (India, Ireland)...
Love it, you show me where to wave that flag, and I'll trot along with unashamed ignorance. |  |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 01:12 - Feb 3 with 891 views | SpruceMoose |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 00:40 - Feb 3 by Kropotkin123 |
"We celebrate Scottish, Irish and Welsh patriotism yet look down our noses on English or British patriotism."
Couldn't have said it better myself. I love a bit of British patriotism. We should be proud of our past... what, with the subjugation of 20% of the world's population, the transatlantic slave trade, concentration camps (Boer), massacres (Amritsar), avoidable famines (India, Ireland)...
Love it, you show me where to wave that flag, and I'll trot along with unashamed ignorance. |
Good post.
If people are going to have this conversation then we would all benefit from at least acknowledging the idea that the English flag and the Union flag aren't neutral symbols.
Even ignoring the fact that our flag has been hijacked by the far right, it's true to say that to millions of people around the world, and even to many people who now call the UK home, it represents tyranny and oppression. Clearly that's not all if stands for, but once we accept that is in fact a loaded symbol, and once we are open and honest about the successes and failures in our history (and the conditions they still create today), maybe we can have a grown up conversation about what modern British patriotism can look like for future generations.
Looking at what other nations do without considering our own circumstances is just too simplistic. [Post edited 3 Feb 2021 3:09]
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 06:01 - Feb 3 with 841 views | Churchman |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 00:40 - Feb 3 by Kropotkin123 |
"We celebrate Scottish, Irish and Welsh patriotism yet look down our noses on English or British patriotism."
Couldn't have said it better myself. I love a bit of British patriotism. We should be proud of our past... what, with the subjugation of 20% of the world's population, the transatlantic slave trade, concentration camps (Boer), massacres (Amritsar), avoidable famines (India, Ireland)...
Love it, you show me where to wave that flag, and I'll trot along with unashamed ignorance. |
Yes, we should be proud of our past as others are, or at least understand it. That is not to deny dreadful things that happened but to use those events in the way you have is to take events out of context. We should understand and learn from history.
There are many countries who past is not all a bed of culture and benign magnificence you imply and it is rarely used to beat them the the way the English one is. For example, not only did the Germans do what they did 1939-45, they also undertook what is regarded as the first genocide of 20c in West Africa, murdering 1000s in truly terrible ways in what is now Namibia. Then proceeded to murder over 6000 Belgian and french civilians in WW1 (see Max Hastings, Armageddon). And that was small potatoes to what the Austrians did in Serbia. Peculiarly, they liked to take pictures of their ‘fun’.
Belgium late 19c early 20c were responsible for the death of millions in the Congo. France raged all over the place in the 18th and early 19c, the Spanish and Portuguese rubbed out whole civilisations. Japan - unspeakable cruelty in Korea then all over Asia in WW2 that had nothing to do with their culture. How far do we want to go back? The Romans? Persians? Jutes, Angles and Saxons? The list is endless. I rarely see other countries apologising for their past or being hammered it. Nor should they be. Why should people of the present be beaten up for the sins of the past? Unless of course you are English.
Yes, Britain was more successful than others in acquiring a larger empire for a period and there were many acts of exploitation and cruelty, particularly by today’s standards. But Britain, including the English believe it or not, also did one or two positive things in its long history. For me I repeat, it’s about understanding it all.
I recommend people read historian and proud Scotsman Neil Oliver’s recent book on the British Isles. I went to one of his lectures a couple of years ago to promote it and it was very interesting in its perspective on history. He didn’t shy away from difficult topics such as slavery or Scottish independence either. [Post edited 3 Feb 2021 7:00]
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 09:18 - Feb 3 with 779 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:34 - Feb 2 by Ftnfwest |
Oh dear, I’m taking cover in preparation for Koonts view on this! |
Haha. Just calmly agreeing here.
I’ve been banging on about the empty, plastic, flag-shagging, focus-grouping triangulation for a few months now.
What’s disturbing is that the clowns of the Labour Right even needed external help coming up with this. |  |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 09:22 - Feb 3 with 769 views | itfcjoe |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 06:01 - Feb 3 by Churchman |
Yes, we should be proud of our past as others are, or at least understand it. That is not to deny dreadful things that happened but to use those events in the way you have is to take events out of context. We should understand and learn from history.
There are many countries who past is not all a bed of culture and benign magnificence you imply and it is rarely used to beat them the the way the English one is. For example, not only did the Germans do what they did 1939-45, they also undertook what is regarded as the first genocide of 20c in West Africa, murdering 1000s in truly terrible ways in what is now Namibia. Then proceeded to murder over 6000 Belgian and french civilians in WW1 (see Max Hastings, Armageddon). And that was small potatoes to what the Austrians did in Serbia. Peculiarly, they liked to take pictures of their ‘fun’.
Belgium late 19c early 20c were responsible for the death of millions in the Congo. France raged all over the place in the 18th and early 19c, the Spanish and Portuguese rubbed out whole civilisations. Japan - unspeakable cruelty in Korea then all over Asia in WW2 that had nothing to do with their culture. How far do we want to go back? The Romans? Persians? Jutes, Angles and Saxons? The list is endless. I rarely see other countries apologising for their past or being hammered it. Nor should they be. Why should people of the present be beaten up for the sins of the past? Unless of course you are English.
Yes, Britain was more successful than others in acquiring a larger empire for a period and there were many acts of exploitation and cruelty, particularly by today’s standards. But Britain, including the English believe it or not, also did one or two positive things in its long history. For me I repeat, it’s about understanding it all.
I recommend people read historian and proud Scotsman Neil Oliver’s recent book on the British Isles. I went to one of his lectures a couple of years ago to promote it and it was very interesting in its perspective on history. He didn’t shy away from difficult topics such as slavery or Scottish independence either. [Post edited 3 Feb 2021 7:00]
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Great post |  |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 09:28 - Feb 3 with 756 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:51 - Feb 2 by Sarge |
Whether they’re cheap and hollow is irrelevant. The majority of public that vote cast their vote for the Tories. It can be argued therefore that the majority of people that vote are thick as sh1t. If including national symbolism more is what’s required to get those people on your side so that you can be in a position to enact your thoughtful and substantive policies, then so be it.
That aside, criticising something that isn’t bad because it has been hijacked by something that is bad is not a perspective that would be tolerated on many other subjects. |
"The majority of public that vote cast their vote for the Tories"
No they don't.. |  |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 09:34 - Feb 3 with 749 views | factual_blue |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 21:34 - Feb 2 by J2BLUE |
It's always going to be our flag. We can keep talking about the past or we can try and be better in the future. Can I assume you'd be up for changing the flag and disowning it because of our past? |
The ironically-named conservative and unionist party seem to be determined to remove several bits of it, so the chances of it 'always being our flag' look limited. | |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 09:36 - Feb 3 with 745 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 06:01 - Feb 3 by Churchman |
Yes, we should be proud of our past as others are, or at least understand it. That is not to deny dreadful things that happened but to use those events in the way you have is to take events out of context. We should understand and learn from history.
There are many countries who past is not all a bed of culture and benign magnificence you imply and it is rarely used to beat them the the way the English one is. For example, not only did the Germans do what they did 1939-45, they also undertook what is regarded as the first genocide of 20c in West Africa, murdering 1000s in truly terrible ways in what is now Namibia. Then proceeded to murder over 6000 Belgian and french civilians in WW1 (see Max Hastings, Armageddon). And that was small potatoes to what the Austrians did in Serbia. Peculiarly, they liked to take pictures of their ‘fun’.
Belgium late 19c early 20c were responsible for the death of millions in the Congo. France raged all over the place in the 18th and early 19c, the Spanish and Portuguese rubbed out whole civilisations. Japan - unspeakable cruelty in Korea then all over Asia in WW2 that had nothing to do with their culture. How far do we want to go back? The Romans? Persians? Jutes, Angles and Saxons? The list is endless. I rarely see other countries apologising for their past or being hammered it. Nor should they be. Why should people of the present be beaten up for the sins of the past? Unless of course you are English.
Yes, Britain was more successful than others in acquiring a larger empire for a period and there were many acts of exploitation and cruelty, particularly by today’s standards. But Britain, including the English believe it or not, also did one or two positive things in its long history. For me I repeat, it’s about understanding it all.
I recommend people read historian and proud Scotsman Neil Oliver’s recent book on the British Isles. I went to one of his lectures a couple of years ago to promote it and it was very interesting in its perspective on history. He didn’t shy away from difficult topics such as slavery or Scottish independence either. [Post edited 3 Feb 2021 7:00]
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No, I'm not taking it out of context. The context was the state's use of flags and "patriotism" at the expense of political policies. A form of propaganda designed specifically to get voters behind a political party through "patriotism", at the expense of providing robust political policies.
It is a dangerous form of "patriotism" because it encourages ignorance and facilitates less accountability of state actions. It encourages a mindset whereby criticism of the state's actions becomes synonymous with criticism of the country.
You clearly know very little of the examples you give and how the nations you list feel about those events and "patriotism" to this day. For example, I lived in Korea for two years. I have an ethnically Korean wife. I have Korean friends living in Korea. Japanese/Korean relations are massively strained to this day over past events, and Koreans do take issue with actions Japan take to this day in the name of "patriotism".
There are whole groups of Japanese society that deny Korean women were treated as "sex slaves" and the Japanese government, under Abe (when he was in power), did not recognise events, going to the grave sites of their equivalent of Hitler, etc. Japan still do not formally apologise, like Germany did.
It is not about how far back we go, it is about all forms of "patriotism" through institutions of authority that encourage ignorance and an absence of accountability for policies and governments going forward.
"Understanding it all" is about recognising what forms of "patriotism" lead to negativity for the vast majority (political parties using it as a propaganda tool) and what forms of "patriotism" lead to positivity for the vast majority (sporting events, like the Olympics). "Understanding it all" is not about having the same blanket response to all forms of "patriotism". [Post edited 3 Feb 2021 9:45]
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 09:36 - Feb 3 with 744 views | DanTheMan |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 06:01 - Feb 3 by Churchman |
Yes, we should be proud of our past as others are, or at least understand it. That is not to deny dreadful things that happened but to use those events in the way you have is to take events out of context. We should understand and learn from history.
There are many countries who past is not all a bed of culture and benign magnificence you imply and it is rarely used to beat them the the way the English one is. For example, not only did the Germans do what they did 1939-45, they also undertook what is regarded as the first genocide of 20c in West Africa, murdering 1000s in truly terrible ways in what is now Namibia. Then proceeded to murder over 6000 Belgian and french civilians in WW1 (see Max Hastings, Armageddon). And that was small potatoes to what the Austrians did in Serbia. Peculiarly, they liked to take pictures of their ‘fun’.
Belgium late 19c early 20c were responsible for the death of millions in the Congo. France raged all over the place in the 18th and early 19c, the Spanish and Portuguese rubbed out whole civilisations. Japan - unspeakable cruelty in Korea then all over Asia in WW2 that had nothing to do with their culture. How far do we want to go back? The Romans? Persians? Jutes, Angles and Saxons? The list is endless. I rarely see other countries apologising for their past or being hammered it. Nor should they be. Why should people of the present be beaten up for the sins of the past? Unless of course you are English.
Yes, Britain was more successful than others in acquiring a larger empire for a period and there were many acts of exploitation and cruelty, particularly by today’s standards. But Britain, including the English believe it or not, also did one or two positive things in its long history. For me I repeat, it’s about understanding it all.
I recommend people read historian and proud Scotsman Neil Oliver’s recent book on the British Isles. I went to one of his lectures a couple of years ago to promote it and it was very interesting in its perspective on history. He didn’t shy away from difficult topics such as slavery or Scottish independence either. [Post edited 3 Feb 2021 7:00]
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You can't on the one hand say we should be proud of our history whilst at the same time saying "well yes we did some really terrible things, but look so did others".
"There are many countries who past is not all a bed of culture and benign magnificence you imply and it is rarely used to beat them the the way the English one is. For example, not only did the Germans do what they did 1939-45, they also undertook what is regarded as the first genocide of 20c in West Africa, murdering 1000s in truly terrible ways in what is now Namibia. Then proceeded to murder over 6000 Belgian and french civilians in WW1 (see Max Hastings, Armageddon). And that was small potatoes to what the Austrians did in Serbia. Peculiarly, they liked to take pictures of their ‘fun’."
A few points here.
I'd argue they are probably still beaten fairly heavily (especially Germany from your list) but you do not hear about them as often because you're not German or Belgian (you can also add Spanish or Portuguese to that list). You also do note later on that the Britain had the largest empire ever. We got about way, way more than others and committed atrocities in many countries over a prolonged period of time. If we do get more criticism, it may be for this reason.
As a side note for Germany, the reason they probably don't get as much criticism despite the abhorrent period of time from pre-WW1 to WW2 is because they are taught that what they did was abhorrent, no ifs or buts. They don't have a constant debate about whether what they did was OK because without it we wouldn't have rockets (yes, that's an extreme example).
Belgium late 19c early 20c were responsible for the death of millions in the Congo. France raged all over the place in the 18th and early 19c, the Spanish and Portuguese rubbed out whole civilisations. Japan - unspeakable cruelty in Korea then all over Asia in WW2 that had nothing to do with their culture. How far do we want to go back? The Romans? Persians? Jutes, Angles and Saxons? The list is endless. I rarely see other countries apologising for their past or being hammered it. Nor should they be. Why should people of the present be beaten up for the sins of the past? Unless of course you are English.
Yup, these are all bad, and should be rightly criticised through a modern lens. Japan is routinely criticised for not acknowledging it's atrocities, the obvious example being the Nanking massacre which is just glossed over there. I don't have enough knowledge of Spain or Portgual to know whether their schooling systems, or their general public, know or acknowledge their countries past roles.
As to how far do you go back, well that's just a matter of debate. I do note though that you've gone for the most extreme examples there by going back nearly 2000 years in some instances. Most of the states listed no longer exists, or it's people are no longer even a real culture. Again, I'd state as I did above you probably don't see those other countries being criticised because you are not from there and would likely have little exposure to it.
"Yes, Britain was more successful than others in acquiring a larger empire for a period and there were many acts of exploitation and cruelty, particularly by today’s standards. But Britain, including the English believe it or not, also did one or two positive things in its long history. For me I repeat, it’s about understanding it all."
Yes, we did. So you praise the positive, and condemn the negative. The problem seems to be that if you even begin to start saying that the British Empire did some absolutely horrible things then you just get accused of not being patriotic. I don't think it takes a long time to recognise that conquering states and oppressing local populations is not balanced out by building railways so you can take their resources faster. On the flipside we did introduce modern medicine, some forms of technology, education and other things like that to places (again, my personal viewpoint is we were trying "enlighten" natives which puts a different context on it).
And yes, other countries were doing this also, that does not excuse our actions. [Post edited 3 Feb 2021 9:56]
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 09:40 - Feb 3 with 732 views | itfcjoe |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 09:36 - Feb 3 by DanTheMan |
You can't on the one hand say we should be proud of our history whilst at the same time saying "well yes we did some really terrible things, but look so did others".
"There are many countries who past is not all a bed of culture and benign magnificence you imply and it is rarely used to beat them the the way the English one is. For example, not only did the Germans do what they did 1939-45, they also undertook what is regarded as the first genocide of 20c in West Africa, murdering 1000s in truly terrible ways in what is now Namibia. Then proceeded to murder over 6000 Belgian and french civilians in WW1 (see Max Hastings, Armageddon). And that was small potatoes to what the Austrians did in Serbia. Peculiarly, they liked to take pictures of their ‘fun’."
A few points here.
I'd argue they are probably still beaten fairly heavily (especially Germany from your list) but you do not hear about them as often because you're not German or Belgian (you can also add Spanish or Portuguese to that list). You also do note later on that the Britain had the largest empire ever. We got about way, way more than others and committed atrocities in many countries over a prolonged period of time. If we do get more criticism, it may be for this reason.
As a side note for Germany, the reason they probably don't get as much criticism despite the abhorrent period of time from pre-WW1 to WW2 is because they are taught that what they did was abhorrent, no ifs or buts. They don't have a constant debate about whether what they did was OK because without it we wouldn't have rockets (yes, that's an extreme example).
Belgium late 19c early 20c were responsible for the death of millions in the Congo. France raged all over the place in the 18th and early 19c, the Spanish and Portuguese rubbed out whole civilisations. Japan - unspeakable cruelty in Korea then all over Asia in WW2 that had nothing to do with their culture. How far do we want to go back? The Romans? Persians? Jutes, Angles and Saxons? The list is endless. I rarely see other countries apologising for their past or being hammered it. Nor should they be. Why should people of the present be beaten up for the sins of the past? Unless of course you are English.
Yup, these are all bad, and should be rightly criticised through a modern lens. Japan is routinely criticised for not acknowledging it's atrocities, the obvious example being the Nanking massacre which is just glossed over there. I don't have enough knowledge of Spain or Portgual to know whether their schooling systems, or their general public, know or acknowledge their countries past roles.
As to how far do you go back, well that's just a matter of debate. I do note though that you've gone for the most extreme examples there by going back nearly 2000 years in some instances. Most of the states listed no longer exists, or it's people are no longer even a real culture. Again, I'd state as I did above you probably don't see those other countries being criticised because you are not from there and would likely have little exposure to it.
"Yes, Britain was more successful than others in acquiring a larger empire for a period and there were many acts of exploitation and cruelty, particularly by today’s standards. But Britain, including the English believe it or not, also did one or two positive things in its long history. For me I repeat, it’s about understanding it all."
Yes, we did. So you praise the positive, and condemn the negative. The problem seems to be that if you even begin to start saying that the British Empire did some absolutely horrible things then you just get accused of not being patriotic. I don't think it takes a long time to recognise that conquering states and oppressing local populations is not balanced out by building railways so you can take their resources faster. On the flipside we did introduce modern medicine, some forms of technology, education and other things like that to places (again, my personal viewpoint is we were trying "enlighten" natives which puts a different context on it).
And yes, other countries were doing this also, that does not excuse our actions. [Post edited 3 Feb 2021 9:56]
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Is there not a problem with your last paragraph, that it is totally slanted to your viewpoint - and that someone from the other side of the debate feels exactly the same about it the other way? | |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 09:42 - Feb 3 with 722 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 09:28 - Feb 3 by Ewan_Oozami |
"The majority of public that vote cast their vote for the Tories"
No they don't.. |
Exactly. Last elections they got 43.6%. Yet they have a majority in parliament, because our voting system facilitates the expropriation based on the location of voters. | |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 09:49 - Feb 3 with 700 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 09:40 - Feb 3 by itfcjoe |
Is there not a problem with your last paragraph, that it is totally slanted to your viewpoint - and that someone from the other side of the debate feels exactly the same about it the other way? |
The problem with his viewpoint is that it is his viewpoint and others have a different viewpoint? You're going to have to expand on that one. | |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 09:52 - Feb 3 with 694 views | DanTheMan |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 09:40 - Feb 3 by itfcjoe |
Is there not a problem with your last paragraph, that it is totally slanted to your viewpoint - and that someone from the other side of the debate feels exactly the same about it the other way? |
Yes, it is my personal viewpoint, I probably should have prefaced.
The other issue is this is incredibly complicated so labelling things good or bad is just going to end up inconsistent.
My personal viewpoint is looking at the context of the actions that our nation took at the time, why we did those things, and then the subsequent outcomes. | |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 09:53 - Feb 3 with 691 views | itfcjoe |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 09:49 - Feb 3 by Kropotkin123 |
The problem with his viewpoint is that it is his viewpoint and others have a different viewpoint? You're going to have to expand on that one. |
It basically says that if you talk down Empire you get accused of being unpatriotic and that you should praise the positive and condemn the negative....
....but then just condemns things that were positive with massive caveats in a completely one eyed view. | |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 09:59 - Feb 3 with 677 views | DanTheMan |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 09:53 - Feb 3 by itfcjoe |
It basically says that if you talk down Empire you get accused of being unpatriotic and that you should praise the positive and condemn the negative....
....but then just condemns things that were positive with massive caveats in a completely one eyed view. |
What I'm trying to get at is that you can't just say "oh they did some good too" because that entirely misses the context of what we were doing and why we were doing it.
There are some instances where we did do some good, without many caveats at all.
However most of the times you see examples of these listed, they weren't done because we were trying to be nice, it was for some level of self gain which for me doesn't make me feel proud of those things. If people can then that's for them. | |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 10:02 - Feb 3 with 672 views | itfcjoe |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 09:52 - Feb 3 by DanTheMan |
Yes, it is my personal viewpoint, I probably should have prefaced.
The other issue is this is incredibly complicated so labelling things good or bad is just going to end up inconsistent.
My personal viewpoint is looking at the context of the actions that our nation took at the time, why we did those things, and then the subsequent outcomes. |
I think there is a very nuanced debate to be had about it, and can certainly see both viewpoints on it - and do think there is merit in fact that it was the way of the world and if we didn't colonise these countries someone else would have done and it may be worse or better.
There is a good bit in Sapiens about colonialism as a whole, which basically says it is hard to view it as good or bad, or anything - because the world was that way and it's impossible to imagine the world without it having happened. | |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 10:03 - Feb 3 with 671 views | footers |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 09:59 - Feb 3 by DanTheMan |
What I'm trying to get at is that you can't just say "oh they did some good too" because that entirely misses the context of what we were doing and why we were doing it.
There are some instances where we did do some good, without many caveats at all.
However most of the times you see examples of these listed, they weren't done because we were trying to be nice, it was for some level of self gain which for me doesn't make me feel proud of those things. If people can then that's for them. |
Exactly this. 'We gave railways to India!' Yeah, because it was easier to extract natural resources that way, we weren't doing it out of the kindness of our hearts.
We also inflicted cricket on many of these countries, poor bastards. |  |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 10:24 - Feb 3 with 650 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 10:02 - Feb 3 by itfcjoe |
I think there is a very nuanced debate to be had about it, and can certainly see both viewpoints on it - and do think there is merit in fact that it was the way of the world and if we didn't colonise these countries someone else would have done and it may be worse or better.
There is a good bit in Sapiens about colonialism as a whole, which basically says it is hard to view it as good or bad, or anything - because the world was that way and it's impossible to imagine the world without it having happened. |
Is it nuanced? Seems like you are just coming back to the tired "don't worry about the famine India, because the Belgians would have been worse than us" attitude. Thus absolving us of all recognition and accountability for wrong-doing for ever.
How we choose to recognise our past within the political arena is important. Propaganda strategies of invoking "patriotism" through the flag and what it represents at a governmental level should be challenged for what they are. [Post edited 3 Feb 2021 10:25]
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 10:30 - Feb 3 with 627 views | chicoazul |
Labour vote collapsed in large part because the Maximum Leader and his outriders were seen as anti Britain and trad Labour voters relished the chance to use their vote to bloody the nose of people they saw as having never done anything for them in 40 years, just as they did with Brexit, even if it would leave them poorer. This is because they feel as I do that being poorer but being heard understood and holding sovereignty is more important than wealth. |  |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 10:40 - Feb 3 with 616 views | Leaky |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 20:09 - Feb 2 by GlasgowBlue |
Hardly rebranding of the Labour Party. Attlee was a founding father of NATO and fiercely patriotic.
Labour has traditionally been the party of the working class. The working class have always been patriotic.
It’s something the last leader didn’t understand. Traditional labour voters thought he was more interested in what was going in in the Middle East than the middle of Yorkshire.
His eagerness to give Russia the benefit of doubt, against our own security services intelligence, in the aftermath of the Salisbury poisoning is cited as the beginning of him losing the 2019 General Election.
We celebrate Scottish, Irish and Welsh patriotism yet look down our noses on English or British patriotism. [Post edited 2 Feb 2021 20:11]
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The problem is labour is losing or lost the support of the " working class" as the working class are now tradesmen , self employed or skilled in some way. It looks to me as the typical Labour supporter is now probably a Chardonnay drinking academic or wealthy thespian. |  | | |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 10:42 - Feb 3 with 608 views | vapour_trail |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 10:30 - Feb 3 by chicoazul |
Labour vote collapsed in large part because the Maximum Leader and his outriders were seen as anti Britain and trad Labour voters relished the chance to use their vote to bloody the nose of people they saw as having never done anything for them in 40 years, just as they did with Brexit, even if it would leave them poorer. This is because they feel as I do that being poorer but being heard understood and holding sovereignty is more important than wealth. |
You think people voted for brexit believing it came with a likelihood of making them poorer! | |
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| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 10:43 - Feb 3 with 596 views | chicoazul |
| Well well well. Flag and patriotrism eh? on 10:42 - Feb 3 by vapour_trail |
You think people voted for brexit believing it came with a likelihood of making them poorer! |
I believe there’s a good chance of that yes, and they didn’t care.
Edit; same with Scots independence [Post edited 3 Feb 2021 10:44]
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