| Vaccine Passports .... 15:19 - Feb 23 with 3653 views | Crawfordsboot |
Are they discriminatory against those who don't want a vaccine, and/or those who can't have a vaccine?
Are those who refuse a vaccination right to argue civil liberty defence or are they selfish busteds who ignore their moral responsibility to society?
Would civil liberty vaccine refusers also expect the right to drive through a town centre at 100 mph? |  | | |  |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:27 - Feb 23 with 506 views | LeoMuff |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:16 - Feb 23 by bluelagos |
Refusniks can speak for themselves.
But the two (outside of TWTD) I know well, are both are scared of the vaccine believing it untested for its long term side effects. And it is untested for it's long term side effects, that is a fact.
Now I'll be taking the vaccine and am happy to (and do) encourage them to do so too. But to seek to label them as selfish and/or to punish them doesn't sit easy with me. It feels like a kneejerk reaction from people unable to empathise with those who are genuinely scared at the prospect of taking the vaccine.
They are not bad people, or selfish people. They simply have a different approach to risk than I do and/or spend too much time reading sh1te on the internet. |
This risk is there for all vaccines though as you can’t test in large enough cohorts to eliminate all side effects and over long enough periods.
The issue I have is by refusing they are putting the risk on to others, and why should their risk aversion put at risk those who genuinely can’t have a vaccine. |  |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:29 - Feb 23 with 503 views | Mookamoo |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:14 - Feb 23 by StokieBlue |
"I'm struggling to see what UK domestic hospitality businesses would use it"
Why do you think it would be their choice?
SB |
If it's a government sanction, then you would assume they would have to fund it with public money. I can't see them going for that, or even given the Test and Trace debacle, being able to actually provide a working system. Imagine having to link that up to NHS vaccine records.
I also can't see the hospitality sector willing or able to fund anything. [Post edited 23 Feb 2021 16:31]
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:30 - Feb 23 with 497 views | Fixed_It |
I can't see the problem with them if they allow us to open things up. Only major downside is it will provide an opportunity for fraudsters if some are dead set against having the vaccine but want (some of) the benefits. |  |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:30 - Feb 23 with 495 views | bluelagos |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:27 - Feb 23 by LeoMuff |
This risk is there for all vaccines though as you can’t test in large enough cohorts to eliminate all side effects and over long enough periods.
The issue I have is by refusing they are putting the risk on to others, and why should their risk aversion put at risk those who genuinely can’t have a vaccine. |
Undoubtedly there is a morale argument for taking a vaccine. I wasn't planning on taking a flu jab until someone pointed out it was also about protecting others, not just me.
Anyhow - I am taking it as soon as I can. You are preaching to the converted :-) |  |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:30 - Feb 23 with 492 views | J2BLUE |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:27 - Feb 23 by bluelagos |
Welcome to sensible club ;-)
On a serious note - the ability to listen to arguments and reconsider your opinion is one many seem to have lost at the moment. I did at the end of lockdown 1 - when I was keen we left lockdown probably a month earlier than many others. And I changed my mind, not least due to some of the very well made arguments made by some on here at the time.
And it's not a problem people having different opinions either. Some people will be very much in favour of a passport scheme, have no issues with that view. Just don't agree it. [Post edited 23 Feb 2021 16:28]
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I don't think i've reconsidered my opinion. I stand by what I said, I just don't think it will happen.
IF it was made law then everything I said remains completely true IMO. |  |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:31 - Feb 23 with 490 views | Churchman |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:09 - Feb 23 by Mookamoo |
I'm struggling to see what UK domestic hospitality businesses would use it. Maybe nightclubs who have people on the door to police it. Maybe festivals as part of the booking process?
I can see it being a requirement as part of your work contract and becoming the norm. Maybe similar to the DBS system where you provide your number and they cross check it. GP surgeries would then update a central database of those who are up to date. |
If enough people take the vaccine, businesses may see it as a ‘selling point’. If say you are a restaurant that makes it clear that customers must have been vaccinated before entry my guess is that many people will go there rather than we one that says don’t care, we take anybody.
For me the ‘what about ma uman rights’ brigade don’t have much of an argument whether it’s travel, or internally with shops or restaurants etc. Why should innocent people be put at risk by the selfish, lazy and stupid? These people have a choice. Vaccine or a restriction on where they can go. Their choice. |  | | |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:32 - Feb 23 with 479 views | StokieBlue |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:18 - Feb 23 by bluelagos |
Every venue has a ROAR - so surely any business can adopt it if it sees fit?
Discrimination law prevents you discriminating on the basis of race, gender etc. Can't see why discriminating against non vaccinated people would be illegal? |
If the government makes it a requirement to have a vaccine passport in order to be inside a pub than that's the law. It's irrelevant how the business feels about it in the same way they are closed at the moment through act of law.
I think your second paragraph is a false equivalence. None of the things you've listed have an affect on other individuals and most of them aren't even choices whereas having C19 because you've chosen not to be vaccinated can most certainly affect other individuals.
I'm not really putting the case forward either way (I've not fully considered it myself), just pointing out the various issues and realities.
SB [Post edited 23 Feb 2021 16:36]
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:33 - Feb 23 with 476 views | bluelagos |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:30 - Feb 23 by J2BLUE |
I don't think i've reconsidered my opinion. I stand by what I said, I just don't think it will happen.
IF it was made law then everything I said remains completely true IMO. |
Fair dos. Sensible club doors are still ajar should you want to pop over.
*No, I am not being serious for anyone worried I am. | |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:34 - Feb 23 with 474 views | StokieBlue |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:29 - Feb 23 by Mookamoo |
If it's a government sanction, then you would assume they would have to fund it with public money. I can't see them going for that, or even given the Test and Trace debacle, being able to actually provide a working system. Imagine having to link that up to NHS vaccine records.
I also can't see the hospitality sector willing or able to fund anything. [Post edited 23 Feb 2021 16:31]
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Elder said the other day the government had already given a contract to look into it and it was also mentioned yesterday at the briefing.
Whether it's right is a totally different argument of course.
SB | | | |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:35 - Feb 23 with 474 views | Basuco |
Those choosing not to take up the offer of a vaccine for non medical reasons risk allowing the virus to mutate, if a mutated variant should evolve that is not covered by the vaccine, then the entire country will be back in lockdown with multiple avoidable death's, just because some people decide to be arses. |  | | |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:37 - Feb 23 with 459 views | bluelagos |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:32 - Feb 23 by StokieBlue |
If the government makes it a requirement to have a vaccine passport in order to be inside a pub than that's the law. It's irrelevant how the business feels about it in the same way they are closed at the moment through act of law.
I think your second paragraph is a false equivalence. None of the things you've listed have an affect on other individuals and most of them aren't even choices whereas having C19 because you've chosen not to be vaccinated can most certainly affect other individuals.
I'm not really putting the case forward either way (I've not fully considered it myself), just pointing out the various issues and realities.
SB [Post edited 23 Feb 2021 16:36]
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Not sure if are on crossed wires. So if they make it compulsory - then of course it gets adopted. No argument there.
My view is they won't, but that some businesses may still choose to adopt it nonetheless.
In that scenario, I can't see that it would be discriminatory as the discrimination laws state what things it is illegal to discriminate on certain grounds. So I think it would be 100% legal should a business choose to adopt such a policy as the law stands today. | |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:39 - Feb 23 with 456 views | bluelagos |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:34 - Feb 23 by StokieBlue |
Elder said the other day the government had already given a contract to look into it and it was also mentioned yesterday at the briefing.
Whether it's right is a totally different argument of course.
SB |
It is defo being looked at - Boris said that in parliament yesterday. Think he has 3 or 4 task forces to consider various things - and it was one of them. | |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:45 - Feb 23 with 442 views | LeoMuff |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:37 - Feb 23 by bluelagos |
Not sure if are on crossed wires. So if they make it compulsory - then of course it gets adopted. No argument there.
My view is they won't, but that some businesses may still choose to adopt it nonetheless.
In that scenario, I can't see that it would be discriminatory as the discrimination laws state what things it is illegal to discriminate on certain grounds. So I think it would be 100% legal should a business choose to adopt such a policy as the law stands today. |
I think if vaccine uptake is not high enough they will introduce to make people comply, they can’t run the risk of mutations that might negate the vaccine, that would be a disaster
If there’s a high uptake they won’t touch it with a barge pole as way too divisive | |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:46 - Feb 23 with 435 views | Mookamoo |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:34 - Feb 23 by StokieBlue |
Elder said the other day the government had already given a contract to look into it and it was also mentioned yesterday at the briefing.
Whether it's right is a totally different argument of course.
SB |
Christ have they? So it will be SERCO or whatever Tory back-bencher who has a cousin with a laptop and a wants a summer job.
Personally I don't care either way. If they do it though, it has to work. I can't see it ever working. | | | |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:50 - Feb 23 with 432 views | bluelagos |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:45 - Feb 23 by LeoMuff |
I think if vaccine uptake is not high enough they will introduce to make people comply, they can’t run the risk of mutations that might negate the vaccine, that would be a disaster
If there’s a high uptake they won’t touch it with a barge pole as way too divisive |
Would agree with that. If we were at only 50-60% uptake the need would be such that the arguments to nudge/encourage higher uptake are that much stronger.
Boris is a libertarian at heart and I just can't see him going down that route unless there is a very strong scientific case tbh. | |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:54 - Feb 23 with 422 views | WeWereZombies |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:31 - Feb 23 by Churchman |
If enough people take the vaccine, businesses may see it as a ‘selling point’. If say you are a restaurant that makes it clear that customers must have been vaccinated before entry my guess is that many people will go there rather than we one that says don’t care, we take anybody.
For me the ‘what about ma uman rights’ brigade don’t have much of an argument whether it’s travel, or internally with shops or restaurants etc. Why should innocent people be put at risk by the selfish, lazy and stupid? These people have a choice. Vaccine or a restriction on where they can go. Their choice. |
Indeed, if 99% of restaurants and pubs adopt a 'show your vaccine passport policy' as well as enforcing it then they will thrive and potentially gain business should the 1% who decide to give it a miss be reliably traced to new outbreaks of Covid.
There are already precedents for vaccine 'passports' in air travel, I had to get a yellow fever certificate before I could fly into Bamako (Mali) and that was thirteen years ago. There are no new initiatives as far as positive and negative freedoms go in this proposal, just a massive step change in scope. |  |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 17:02 - Feb 23 with 402 views | Mookamoo |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:54 - Feb 23 by WeWereZombies |
Indeed, if 99% of restaurants and pubs adopt a 'show your vaccine passport policy' as well as enforcing it then they will thrive and potentially gain business should the 1% who decide to give it a miss be reliably traced to new outbreaks of Covid.
There are already precedents for vaccine 'passports' in air travel, I had to get a yellow fever certificate before I could fly into Bamako (Mali) and that was thirteen years ago. There are no new initiatives as far as positive and negative freedoms go in this proposal, just a massive step change in scope. |
Would we ever get anywhere near 99% of pubs etc.
The landlord of our local still won't take cards because it confuses him. | | | |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 17:09 - Feb 23 with 392 views | WeWereZombies |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 17:02 - Feb 23 by Mookamoo |
Would we ever get anywhere near 99% of pubs etc.
The landlord of our local still won't take cards because it confuses him. |
The attraction of retaining or increasing turnover, which can also feed into job retention and/or better pay, can be a powerful force. | |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 17:12 - Feb 23 with 387 views | Mookamoo |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 17:09 - Feb 23 by WeWereZombies |
The attraction of retaining or increasing turnover, which can also feed into job retention and/or better pay, can be a powerful force. |
Not with Paul in the Kings Head. He treats all his customers with utter contempt. He is one of the last mighty Suffolk freeholders. | | | |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 17:13 - Feb 23 with 387 views | footers |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 17:02 - Feb 23 by Mookamoo |
Would we ever get anywhere near 99% of pubs etc.
The landlord of our local still won't take cards because it confuses him. |
I'd guess a majority of pubs are brewery run/pubcos, so you'd get a majority buy-in from those, I guess.
Maybe not Spoons! |  |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 17:13 - Feb 23 with 387 views | The_Romford_Blue |
I think making them compulsory is a bad route to take.
I’m likely to have the vaccine (95% likely) but a very close friend of mine says he won’t be having it. His primary reason being that it’s completely unproven to have no long term consequences. Which is true tbf.
Denying him from being part of society because of that is wrong imo. I don’t like the precedent it sets. |  |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 17:16 - Feb 23 with 374 views | J2BLUE |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 17:13 - Feb 23 by The_Romford_Blue |
I think making them compulsory is a bad route to take.
I’m likely to have the vaccine (95% likely) but a very close friend of mine says he won’t be having it. His primary reason being that it’s completely unproven to have no long term consequences. Which is true tbf.
Denying him from being part of society because of that is wrong imo. I don’t like the precedent it sets. |
Having the vaccine MAY lead to long term effects for the person vaccinated (i'm sure it's unlikely, given what the vaccines are based on) but not having it WILL increase risk to everyone they come into contact with.
So would they have the right to complain? No, IMO. | |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 17:20 - Feb 23 with 366 views | m14_blue |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 17:13 - Feb 23 by The_Romford_Blue |
I think making them compulsory is a bad route to take.
I’m likely to have the vaccine (95% likely) but a very close friend of mine says he won’t be having it. His primary reason being that it’s completely unproven to have no long term consequences. Which is true tbf.
Denying him from being part of society because of that is wrong imo. I don’t like the precedent it sets. |
Why does he think it might have long term consequences?
What’s this based on? The cleverest people in the field are confident that it won’t. |  | | |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 17:25 - Feb 23 with 355 views | Churchman |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 17:13 - Feb 23 by The_Romford_Blue |
I think making them compulsory is a bad route to take.
I’m likely to have the vaccine (95% likely) but a very close friend of mine says he won’t be having it. His primary reason being that it’s completely unproven to have no long term consequences. Which is true tbf.
Denying him from being part of society because of that is wrong imo. I don’t like the precedent it sets. |
People not having the vaccine is likely to have long term consequences: the potential illness and death of others. That to me isn’t acceptable. I really don’t mind what peoples views on anything are as long as it only affects them. They can decide an all broken glass diet is the way forward if they wish. But when peoples decisions affect others, that’s not on.
Your friend isn’t alone. A chum of mine has exactly the same view, which is ironic considering his health. If he gets C-19 he is likely to die. | | | |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 17:28 - Feb 23 with 351 views | hype313 |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 17:13 - Feb 23 by The_Romford_Blue |
I think making them compulsory is a bad route to take.
I’m likely to have the vaccine (95% likely) but a very close friend of mine says he won’t be having it. His primary reason being that it’s completely unproven to have no long term consequences. Which is true tbf.
Denying him from being part of society because of that is wrong imo. I don’t like the precedent it sets. |
If you look at most vaccines historically, the majority that had adverse affects were known within 3 months (something like 99% of them)
So, essentially, if there are no immediate serious side affects within that timeframe, then realistically we are all good to go.
Jab me know please. |  |
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