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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? 13:27 - Feb 24 with 1855 viewsDarth_Koont

Keir and his team could take a leaf out of his book. In other words stop trying to play imaginary chess to an imaginary crowd.

Just stick to the basics of showing, and fighting for, an alternative way forward for the UK. Really isn’t more complicated than that.

Pronouns: He/Him

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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 13:30 - Feb 24 with 1250 viewsSwansea_Blue

I saw a comment the other day along the lines of it's all well and good Starmer/Labour trying to respond to public opinion, but can they actually shape and lead it? that's the true test.

Which I suspect is pretty much what you're talking about.

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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 13:40 - Feb 24 with 1223 viewsDarth_Koont

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 13:30 - Feb 24 by Swansea_Blue

I saw a comment the other day along the lines of it's all well and good Starmer/Labour trying to respond to public opinion, but can they actually shape and lead it? that's the true test.

Which I suspect is pretty much what you're talking about.


Indeed. Problem is that they wouldn’t know where to start.

Pronouns: He/Him

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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 13:49 - Feb 24 with 1203 viewsBluefish

Do you think there could ever have been a scenario where you could have backed or praised Starmer though?


As he stands he has my vote and I have never voted Labour in my life

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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 13:55 - Feb 24 with 1193 viewsSwansea_Blue

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 13:49 - Feb 24 by Bluefish

Do you think there could ever have been a scenario where you could have backed or praised Starmer though?


As he stands he has my vote and I have never voted Labour in my life


I think that's the issue. The fact that people who don't like Labour would vote for him just reinforces the view that he isn't really Labour enough. I don't know how they get out of that conundrum. They have to if they want to win, as they'll need the votes of socialists and the centre. Corbyn was deemed too far left for the centrists and now Starmer is too far right for the lefties.

Meanwhile:
120,000 dead
Blatant corruption
Attacks on the democratic principles of parliament
Attacks on the judiciary
Attacks on the free press
A decade of austerity decimating public services
Etc...

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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 13:55 - Feb 24 with 1192 viewsDarth_Koont

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 13:49 - Feb 24 by Bluefish

Do you think there could ever have been a scenario where you could have backed or praised Starmer though?


As he stands he has my vote and I have never voted Labour in my life


Absolutely. All I need to do is go back to my post in support of him as leader after his pledges as a socialist committed to unity.

He’s been a disappointment on every level for me. Which is probably why you like him.

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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 13:55 - Feb 24 with 1189 viewsSwansea_Blue

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 13:40 - Feb 24 by Darth_Koont

Indeed. Problem is that they wouldn’t know where to start.


I'm not seeing any evidence to suggest you're wrong.

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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 13:57 - Feb 24 with 1167 viewsBluefish

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 13:55 - Feb 24 by Darth_Koont

Absolutely. All I need to do is go back to my post in support of him as leader after his pledges as a socialist committed to unity.

He’s been a disappointment on every level for me. Which is probably why you like him.


Probably a good indicator into how the maga lot will take to the Trump successor

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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 14:02 - Feb 24 with 1148 viewsDarth_Koont

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 13:57 - Feb 24 by Bluefish

Probably a good indicator into how the maga lot will take to the Trump successor


Great comparison. 😉

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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 14:04 - Feb 24 with 1138 viewslowhouseblue

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 13:55 - Feb 24 by Swansea_Blue

I think that's the issue. The fact that people who don't like Labour would vote for him just reinforces the view that he isn't really Labour enough. I don't know how they get out of that conundrum. They have to if they want to win, as they'll need the votes of socialists and the centre. Corbyn was deemed too far left for the centrists and now Starmer is too far right for the lefties.

Meanwhile:
120,000 dead
Blatant corruption
Attacks on the democratic principles of parliament
Attacks on the judiciary
Attacks on the free press
A decade of austerity decimating public services
Etc...


labour would manage very well without the self-righteous left. that's how it's got elected in the past. there aren't that many of them and their main effect is just to put other people off. if they had guts they'd set up their own party. they could then say what they want and glory in the purity of not having anyone they disagree with vote for them. everyone would be happier.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 14:10 - Feb 24 with 1125 viewsDarth_Koont

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 14:04 - Feb 24 by lowhouseblue

labour would manage very well without the self-righteous left. that's how it's got elected in the past. there aren't that many of them and their main effect is just to put other people off. if they had guts they'd set up their own party. they could then say what they want and glory in the purity of not having anyone they disagree with vote for them. everyone would be happier.


Your problem is that you don’t see the problems with that.

Take the left out of politics in a modern 21st century country and what have you got? Flag-waving, low taxes and inequality.

Pronouns: He/Him

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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 14:18 - Feb 24 with 1099 viewsthebooks

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 13:49 - Feb 24 by Bluefish

Do you think there could ever have been a scenario where you could have backed or praised Starmer though?


As he stands he has my vote and I have never voted Labour in my life


Starmer won the leadership election with the votes of the left, probably based on the fact that we acknowledged we did badly and would need a more savvy leader than Corbyn. The Corbynite candidate did poorly.

So, I think KS had plenty of support. Unfortunately, he’s decided to fight last century’s battles and expel the perceived “left” from the party, while not really coming up with any policies (recovery bond excepted). This is problematic because Corbyn had built up the largest party membership in Europe.

He may well be right, of course, if he’s picking up votes, as he has with you. But I’m struggling to see what coalition he’s building.
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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 14:23 - Feb 24 with 1082 viewslowhouseblue

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 14:10 - Feb 24 by Darth_Koont

Your problem is that you don’t see the problems with that.

Take the left out of politics in a modern 21st century country and what have you got? Flag-waving, low taxes and inequality.


i don't want to take them out of politics. i want them to stand true and proud and offer their 'real' alternative, independent voice, so that those who want it can back it. they'll be able to say what they really think and it will leave the labour party to get on with getting elected. win, win.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 14:27 - Feb 24 with 1067 viewsDarth_Koont

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 14:18 - Feb 24 by thebooks

Starmer won the leadership election with the votes of the left, probably based on the fact that we acknowledged we did badly and would need a more savvy leader than Corbyn. The Corbynite candidate did poorly.

So, I think KS had plenty of support. Unfortunately, he’s decided to fight last century’s battles and expel the perceived “left” from the party, while not really coming up with any policies (recovery bond excepted). This is problematic because Corbyn had built up the largest party membership in Europe.

He may well be right, of course, if he’s picking up votes, as he has with you. But I’m struggling to see what coalition he’s building.


Indeed.

As for the coalition he’s not building, him and his supporters are busy digging the trenches to defend the Establishment’s left flank and positioning themselves on the “right side” of the wire. Problem is that the vast majority of the UK are also outside that wire.

I have seen nothing else from him and his allies. And with that sort of focus I doubt we will see anything particularly progressive nor leadership of any debate.

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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 14:30 - Feb 24 with 1057 viewsDarth_Koont

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 14:23 - Feb 24 by lowhouseblue

i don't want to take them out of politics. i want them to stand true and proud and offer their 'real' alternative, independent voice, so that those who want it can back it. they'll be able to say what they really think and it will leave the labour party to get on with getting elected. win, win.


But socialists belong in a socialist party. Why didn’t the Labour Right join the LibDems or even the Tories?

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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 14:33 - Feb 24 with 1045 viewsthebooks

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 14:27 - Feb 24 by Darth_Koont

Indeed.

As for the coalition he’s not building, him and his supporters are busy digging the trenches to defend the Establishment’s left flank and positioning themselves on the “right side” of the wire. Problem is that the vast majority of the UK are also outside that wire.

I have seen nothing else from him and his allies. And with that sort of focus I doubt we will see anything particularly progressive nor leadership of any debate.


Yes. From a purely strategic view I fear for Labour at the next election as I can just see them being outflanked by Johnson, especially if the Tories start splashing a little cash here and there and don’t present themselves as the party of austerity.

I am genuinely confused by what they learned from the 2019 election. Do they think Johnson was elected on account of his honesty or competence?
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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 14:52 - Feb 24 with 1005 viewslowhouseblue

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 14:30 - Feb 24 by Darth_Koont

But socialists belong in a socialist party. Why didn’t the Labour Right join the LibDems or even the Tories?


because, however you characterise the socialism of the labour party, the labour party has always since it's very foundation been above everything a vehicle through which to obtain parliamentary power. that involves a dialogue with the electorate, and it's an electorate which in another thread you seem to have just accepted to not on average very left leaning. It's not about socialists v. others - it's about people who want to build broad enough support to form government v. people who seem to really enjoy the purity of being in a small minority.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 15:00 - Feb 24 with 987 viewsDarth_Koont

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 14:33 - Feb 24 by thebooks

Yes. From a purely strategic view I fear for Labour at the next election as I can just see them being outflanked by Johnson, especially if the Tories start splashing a little cash here and there and don’t present themselves as the party of austerity.

I am genuinely confused by what they learned from the 2019 election. Do they think Johnson was elected on account of his honesty or competence?


Agreed. Outflanked by Johnson, the SNP, BLM, Greens/XR, LibDems on Brexit and PR, Reform UK on Brexit and xenophobia, outflanked by the left on actual alternative policies etc. etc.

Falling behind and following must be the New Leadership they’re talking about.

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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 15:03 - Feb 24 with 972 viewsDarth_Koont

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 14:52 - Feb 24 by lowhouseblue

because, however you characterise the socialism of the labour party, the labour party has always since it's very foundation been above everything a vehicle through which to obtain parliamentary power. that involves a dialogue with the electorate, and it's an electorate which in another thread you seem to have just accepted to not on average very left leaning. It's not about socialists v. others - it's about people who want to build broad enough support to form government v. people who seem to really enjoy the purity of being in a small minority.


You think socialism and especially the grassroots socialism we’ve seen more and more of isn’t about having a dialogue with the electorate?

I doubt the current leadership have ever been more divorced from the electorate and even their own members. And as for dialogue, they’re saying nothing while seemingly only listening to the right.

Pronouns: He/Him

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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 16:48 - Feb 24 with 875 viewsmonytowbray

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 13:49 - Feb 24 by Bluefish

Do you think there could ever have been a scenario where you could have backed or praised Starmer though?


As he stands he has my vote and I have never voted Labour in my life


What exactly has he done to win your vote so far other than not be Corbyn?

This is a question we’ve asked many a “I’ve never voted Labour but” folks and we get no reply.

Not to mention based on the likelihood you aren’t a die hard Green or Lib Dem it then raises the question of who have you voted for in the past and based on that is said opinion really going to mean much? Likely not.

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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 16:51 - Feb 24 with 865 viewsmonytowbray

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 14:04 - Feb 24 by lowhouseblue

labour would manage very well without the self-righteous left. that's how it's got elected in the past. there aren't that many of them and their main effect is just to put other people off. if they had guts they'd set up their own party. they could then say what they want and glory in the purity of not having anyone they disagree with vote for them. everyone would be happier.


Your opening line instantly makes me say “oh do shut up” before I’ve even read the rest.

Lowhouse; no institutionally right wing skewed agendas here, honestly.

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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 16:52 - Feb 24 with 863 viewsmonytowbray

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 14:23 - Feb 24 by lowhouseblue

i don't want to take them out of politics. i want them to stand true and proud and offer their 'real' alternative, independent voice, so that those who want it can back it. they'll be able to say what they really think and it will leave the labour party to get on with getting elected. win, win.


You scream at the left every time they open their mouth with Tory spin.

I don’t think you’re best qualified to consult.

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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 17:00 - Feb 24 with 842 viewsJ2BLUE

Starmer seems to take a fortnight to decide which of the single things the Tories have said that he's going to disagree with.

Incredibly uninspiring. Someone (Darth?) suggested he might need to be binned off before the next election. I'm starting to agree.

Truly impaired.
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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 17:27 - Feb 24 with 813 viewsmonytowbray

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 17:00 - Feb 24 by J2BLUE

Starmer seems to take a fortnight to decide which of the single things the Tories have said that he's going to disagree with.

Incredibly uninspiring. Someone (Darth?) suggested he might need to be binned off before the next election. I'm starting to agree.


NeoLibs thought a man in a suit would save the day whilst completely misreading the political climate and Labour’s post-Brown/pre-Corbyn performances.

They’re up against lies, smears and a general attitude of closet/outright/institutional racists turning a blind eye to their criminal behaviour so long as they bang the immigration/culture war/queen shagger drum.

That and you have a growing generation of young folks fed up with low pay, no savings, no job security, no financial security, no assets and the impending doom of climate change being ignored in favour of profit/inequality. There is no way in sweet hell I’d be 33 and still renting with my current salary if this were three+ decades ago. Work doesn’t pay.

Perhaps if they saw this in 2017 we wouldn’t have a Tory government now and wouldn’t have done for 4 years.

I’d say I’m being Captain Hindsight but I’d think my post history suggests different. FWIW, I think Corbyn would have wiped the floor with this lot daily over the last year.
[Post edited 24 Feb 2021 17:29]

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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 17:35 - Feb 24 with 782 viewsJ2BLUE

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 17:27 - Feb 24 by monytowbray

NeoLibs thought a man in a suit would save the day whilst completely misreading the political climate and Labour’s post-Brown/pre-Corbyn performances.

They’re up against lies, smears and a general attitude of closet/outright/institutional racists turning a blind eye to their criminal behaviour so long as they bang the immigration/culture war/queen shagger drum.

That and you have a growing generation of young folks fed up with low pay, no savings, no job security, no financial security, no assets and the impending doom of climate change being ignored in favour of profit/inequality. There is no way in sweet hell I’d be 33 and still renting with my current salary if this were three+ decades ago. Work doesn’t pay.

Perhaps if they saw this in 2017 we wouldn’t have a Tory government now and wouldn’t have done for 4 years.

I’d say I’m being Captain Hindsight but I’d think my post history suggests different. FWIW, I think Corbyn would have wiped the floor with this lot daily over the last year.
[Post edited 24 Feb 2021 17:29]


It would have been interesting if the pandemic had happened during Corbyn's first year as leader.

I must admit I thought Starmer was a better candidate and was pleased when he won the leadership contest but he hasn't convinced me yet. Maybe he will and there's some grand plan but somehow I doubt it.

Agree with your points about jobs and pay. It seems like the list of requirements constantly gets longer while the pay gets pushed downwards. Lots of jobs offering £16k a year demanding the world from applicants. If one more person says "just start a business" I might deck them.

Truly impaired.
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Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 17:40 - Feb 24 with 771 viewslowhouseblue

Lambert now outperforming Starmer? on 15:03 - Feb 24 by Darth_Koont

You think socialism and especially the grassroots socialism we’ve seen more and more of isn’t about having a dialogue with the electorate?

I doubt the current leadership have ever been more divorced from the electorate and even their own members. And as for dialogue, they’re saying nothing while seemingly only listening to the right.


there was a dialogue when the electorate told you what you could do with corbyn i guess.

go on, have the courage of your convictions and join the swp or respect or whatever they are passing themselves off as now days.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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