| The Gordon Elliot photo 14:32 - Mar 5 with 3565 views | Moriarty |
He's appearing before the Irish Racing Board today.
I couldn't help but notice how the issue was handled on here by some posters during the week.
The photo was entirely distasteful. A man entrusted with the welfare and care of animals should always take that responsibility seriously. He is paid to do so. Animal welfare is an important social issue. It matters.
I don't know the guy all that well. I know a few in the racing industry and a few who have had horses with different trainers. I get a few tips from time to time but not being partial to a bet on the nags, I don't pay all that much attention.
I have also read during the week that some well known people in the industry say that, on the whole, he treats his animals very well and that he has renewed and re-invigorated certain horses that were sent to his yard. Many in the industry here have recognised how unacceptable the photo was but many also surmise that it was moment of utter stupidity and distaste rather than a reflection on how he treats his animals generally.
He has been subjected to a barage of vile abuse on social media. Caroline Flack's anniversary was (I think) fairly recent. She took her own life due to online abuse. I also heard on the wireless this morning that our screens are soon to be polluted with "Love Island" soon (a show which I don't watch). What we might not hear however is that two former contestants of "Love Island" took their own lives or why they did so. Still the show goes on without any apparent objection. Social media and on line abuse can be very damaging as can ill tempered judgment and relentless calls for extreme punishment.
GE sat on a dead horse and posed in profoundly stupid way for a profoundly stupid photo. The horse had died of a heart attack. The owner of the horse is keeping his horses in the yard.
GE must be punished. Equally, any punishment must be fair and proportionate, qualities which were absent from some of the posts on this issue during the week. Is he not entitled to be genuinely remorseful? to a second chance?
He employs 70-80 people locally and that is big boost to a small local economy.
The motivation behind the release of the photo is also worthy of consideration. The photo is a number of years old. The release of the photo had nothing to do with animal welfare or a concern for animal welfare. The sole purpose of releasing the photo was to inflict as much damage, personal and financial, as possible on him. That is a bandwagon that some people are sometimes all too quick to jump on, oblivious to, or unconcerned with, the damage it will cause to GE. personally and financially, with follow on consequences for his employees, family and friends.
However distasteful the photo or his actions were, he is entitled to fairness and proportionality. He is entitled to be genuinely remorseful.
The excuse he offered is unlikely to have any purchase with the decision makers. And neither should it. However, if they consider him to be genuinely remorseful, he should be given credit for that. If he is genuinely remorseful, is he note entitled to a second chance?
I hope he receives a fair punishment, which imho, amounts to a substantial fine, a temporary ban, a contribution to animal welfare groups, and an undertaking to complete a course in animal welfare.
[Post edited 5 Mar 2021 15:15]
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| The Gordon Elliot photo on 14:42 - Mar 5 with 2570 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
I've not seen the photo, and don't want to. I've read small bits of reports about it.
I think everything you say is very fair. To ask for a fair and proportionate response is not remotely to condone his actions.
I would expect (and hope) that the disciplinary board will take a similar approach. If they do so, however, they will come in for huge amounts of stick from those on the bandwagon who will only be satisfied when they smell blood.
I used to think it upsetting, revolting even, that people used to turn out to watch executions for entertainment. I couldn't understand how anyone could do that. But online we can see how mobs work, on a daily basis. |  | | |
| The Gordon Elliot photo on 14:44 - Mar 5 with 2563 views | The_Romford_Blue |
My thoughts on this are halfway down page 1 and early on page 2. |  |
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| The Gordon Elliott photo on 14:50 - Mar 5 with 2531 views | Radlett_blue |
Elliott will be punished severely, largely because jump racing is a sport which has long been under attack by those who consider it cruel to animals. I don't want to get into that debate here as it's well worn ground & an issue on which many have well entrenched opinions, but Elliott's punishment is likely to reflect that the sport's governing body will want to send a strong message that anything that damages the image & perception of the sport is unacceptable. Whether this is fair or not is a matter for debate, but it's hard for those who already have an entrenched view about the sport to have an objective opinion. No question what Elliott did was stupid & also highly likely that he will have a few enemies, happy to seize a chance to bring him down. |  |
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| The Gordon Elliot photo on 14:55 - Mar 5 with 2510 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| The Gordon Elliot photo on 14:44 - Mar 5 by The_Romford_Blue |
My thoughts on this are halfway down page 1 and early on page 2. |
Blimey. Just read your comments in the other thread. I'll stand by agreeing with the OP that "fair and proportionate" is necessary, but after reading what you have written the goalposts for what is fair and proportionate have shifted a fair way. | | | |
| The Gordon Elliot photo on 15:00 - Mar 5 with 2499 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| The Gordon Elliot photo on 14:55 - Mar 5 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Blimey. Just read your comments in the other thread. I'll stand by agreeing with the OP that "fair and proportionate" is necessary, but after reading what you have written the goalposts for what is fair and proportionate have shifted a fair way. |
The worst for Elliott is yet to come. And when it comes, he won’t be training horses for many many years | |
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| The Gordon Elliot photo on 15:16 - Mar 5 with 2454 views | Ryorry |
I agree with what you say about social media, and abhor kangaroo courts, I hope GE's family & friends stop him from reading that vile stuff.
On the issue itself though, I'm sorry but statements like "on the whole, he treats his animals very well" do not cut it for me - if even one horse in his yard has suffered from poor or cruel treatment or neglect, without the usual full duty of care, that is unacceptable.
Re the photo - the normal instinctive reaction at the death of a horse in their care is for 99.99% of trainers, upset, sadness, feelin gutted - because they have genuine affection & respect for them. *No way* would those others sit on a dead one. It wasn't "one image, one lapse". It reveals his attitude to the horses in his care when out of the public gaze. On another level, his allowing it to be taken shows he gave no consideration to the horse's owner, his stable staff who he also has a duty of care to, or the racing industry that he made a very good living from.
Btw I was told the photo was taken 18 months ago, and yes you're right to question the motives/timing of its release). |  |
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| The Gordon Elliot photo on 15:20 - Mar 5 with 2432 views | GlasgowBlue |
This story was covered on the radio earlier in the week and one of the presenters said that this is surely a one off and that Gordon Elliot wasn't know for mistreatment of horses.
The Horse racing correspondent from the times then said something along the lines of "I've heard quite a few stories about his conduct with horses that I don't particularly want to speak about publicly".
I doubt that this is the last we will hear about it. |  |
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| The Gordon Elliot photo on 16:19 - Mar 5 with 2361 views | Moriarty |
| The Gordon Elliot photo on 14:44 - Mar 5 by The_Romford_Blue |
My thoughts on this are halfway down page 1 and early on page 2. |
Your posts seem to accommodate the view that there is a vendetta to destroy him (not saying that you are part of that) and that the next prong of the attack is designed to be the killer blow. Any person, irrespective of the charge they face, is entitled to a presumption of innocence and to a fair hearing, to present their side of the story and to challenge the accusation and the accuser. They should be entitled to do so before judgment is passed.
What if GE, in the face of all of the abuse he is getting, harmed himself or worse? What then? There is a regulatory body to deal with his behavior (whether now or in the future).
If we deprived all people who were unfaithful (allegedly) of their right to earn a living, the State would be broke. If we sacked all bosses who weren't paragons of virtue, or whose behavior wasn't always ideal, the commercial world would fall into chaos.
I'm not aware of any complaints against him concerning his treatment of horses (which isn't to say there aren't any) but the owner of the dead horse (Michael O'Leary) is keeping his horses with him.
The horse industry is a tough place and I'm sure we've all heard plenty of stories about A, B and C. He deserves a fair and proportionate punishment,. I think Radlett is right that there should be a deterrent in that punishment.
I suspect if the entire lid was lifted on all trainers, jockeys, punters and bookies, there would be a whole lot of ugly, whether in horses or greyhounds. We shouldn't lay all of that on GE's shoulders. | |
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| I don't think anyone should.... on 16:23 - Mar 5 with 2341 views | Bloots |
| The Gordon Elliot photo on 16:19 - Mar 5 by Moriarty |
Your posts seem to accommodate the view that there is a vendetta to destroy him (not saying that you are part of that) and that the next prong of the attack is designed to be the killer blow. Any person, irrespective of the charge they face, is entitled to a presumption of innocence and to a fair hearing, to present their side of the story and to challenge the accusation and the accuser. They should be entitled to do so before judgment is passed.
What if GE, in the face of all of the abuse he is getting, harmed himself or worse? What then? There is a regulatory body to deal with his behavior (whether now or in the future).
If we deprived all people who were unfaithful (allegedly) of their right to earn a living, the State would be broke. If we sacked all bosses who weren't paragons of virtue, or whose behavior wasn't always ideal, the commercial world would fall into chaos.
I'm not aware of any complaints against him concerning his treatment of horses (which isn't to say there aren't any) but the owner of the dead horse (Michael O'Leary) is keeping his horses with him.
The horse industry is a tough place and I'm sure we've all heard plenty of stories about A, B and C. He deserves a fair and proportionate punishment,. I think Radlett is right that there should be a deterrent in that punishment.
I suspect if the entire lid was lifted on all trainers, jockeys, punters and bookies, there would be a whole lot of ugly, whether in horses or greyhounds. We shouldn't lay all of that on GE's shoulders. |
...set their moral compass by Michael O'Leary.
The thought of him sitting in his castle knowing that his horses aren't going to run at Cheltenham is the only vaguely gratifying thing to come out of this whole affair.
That'll teach him for charging me £50 to take a suitcase on a plane. |  |
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| The Gordon Elliot photo on 16:41 - Mar 5 with 2284 views | chicoazul |
Horse racing is inherently cruel. |  |
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| The Gordon Elliot photo on 17:03 - Mar 5 with 2238 views | Ryorry |
| The Gordon Elliot photo on 16:19 - Mar 5 by Moriarty |
Your posts seem to accommodate the view that there is a vendetta to destroy him (not saying that you are part of that) and that the next prong of the attack is designed to be the killer blow. Any person, irrespective of the charge they face, is entitled to a presumption of innocence and to a fair hearing, to present their side of the story and to challenge the accusation and the accuser. They should be entitled to do so before judgment is passed.
What if GE, in the face of all of the abuse he is getting, harmed himself or worse? What then? There is a regulatory body to deal with his behavior (whether now or in the future).
If we deprived all people who were unfaithful (allegedly) of their right to earn a living, the State would be broke. If we sacked all bosses who weren't paragons of virtue, or whose behavior wasn't always ideal, the commercial world would fall into chaos.
I'm not aware of any complaints against him concerning his treatment of horses (which isn't to say there aren't any) but the owner of the dead horse (Michael O'Leary) is keeping his horses with him.
The horse industry is a tough place and I'm sure we've all heard plenty of stories about A, B and C. He deserves a fair and proportionate punishment,. I think Radlett is right that there should be a deterrent in that punishment.
I suspect if the entire lid was lifted on all trainers, jockeys, punters and bookies, there would be a whole lot of ugly, whether in horses or greyhounds. We shouldn't lay all of that on GE's shoulders. |
"I suspect if the entire lid was lifted on all trainers, jockeys, punters and bookies, there would be a whole lot of ugly, whether in horses or greyhounds. We shouldn't lay all of that on GE's shoulders."
I don't know about punters and bookies, but in any case they are not responsible for the welfare of live racehorses. Nor do I know anything about greyhound racing.
But re horse-racing trainers & jockeys, a comment like "I suspect if the entire lid was lifted ... there would be a whole lot of ugly" - shows exactly why the vast majority of other trainers, jockeys & the racing industry itself, have united in their condemnation of GE & the photo; and why the British Horseracing Authority will throw the book at him. Never mind any possible future relevations, you, like many members of the non-racing public, have picked up on that one photo to say you "suspect" it's indicative of "a whole lot of ugly", without any evidence to back that up.
I'm not talking about the regular objections to horse-racing in saying that, people are entitled to their views re putting horses into races. I'm talking about the behind-the-scenes welfare of the horses, how they're treated when the public aren't watching. The horses' best protection there is the lads & lasses who look after them & who genuinely love them as though they are their own family pets. There will always be whistle-blowers if anyone steps out of line. I've had shares in numerous syndicated horses over the years, visited dozens of yards, talked with many stable staff, and seen for myself. | |
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| The Gordon Elliot photo on 17:56 - Mar 5 with 2180 views | Moriarty |
It’s reported that he has been suspended for 12 months, 6 months of which is suspended. | |
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| The Gordon Elliot photo on 18:19 - Mar 5 with 2144 views | factual_blue |
| The Gordon Elliot photo on 15:16 - Mar 5 by Ryorry |
I agree with what you say about social media, and abhor kangaroo courts, I hope GE's family & friends stop him from reading that vile stuff.
On the issue itself though, I'm sorry but statements like "on the whole, he treats his animals very well" do not cut it for me - if even one horse in his yard has suffered from poor or cruel treatment or neglect, without the usual full duty of care, that is unacceptable.
Re the photo - the normal instinctive reaction at the death of a horse in their care is for 99.99% of trainers, upset, sadness, feelin gutted - because they have genuine affection & respect for them. *No way* would those others sit on a dead one. It wasn't "one image, one lapse". It reveals his attitude to the horses in his care when out of the public gaze. On another level, his allowing it to be taken shows he gave no consideration to the horse's owner, his stable staff who he also has a duty of care to, or the racing industry that he made a very good living from.
Btw I was told the photo was taken 18 months ago, and yes you're right to question the motives/timing of its release). |
Surely this should have been dealt with by a court of horses, not kangaroos. They're not even related species as kangaroos are marsupials. |  |
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| The Gordon Elliot photo on 18:54 - Mar 5 with 2099 views | Moriarty |
| The Gordon Elliot photo on 17:03 - Mar 5 by Ryorry |
"I suspect if the entire lid was lifted on all trainers, jockeys, punters and bookies, there would be a whole lot of ugly, whether in horses or greyhounds. We shouldn't lay all of that on GE's shoulders."
I don't know about punters and bookies, but in any case they are not responsible for the welfare of live racehorses. Nor do I know anything about greyhound racing.
But re horse-racing trainers & jockeys, a comment like "I suspect if the entire lid was lifted ... there would be a whole lot of ugly" - shows exactly why the vast majority of other trainers, jockeys & the racing industry itself, have united in their condemnation of GE & the photo; and why the British Horseracing Authority will throw the book at him. Never mind any possible future relevations, you, like many members of the non-racing public, have picked up on that one photo to say you "suspect" it's indicative of "a whole lot of ugly", without any evidence to back that up.
I'm not talking about the regular objections to horse-racing in saying that, people are entitled to their views re putting horses into races. I'm talking about the behind-the-scenes welfare of the horses, how they're treated when the public aren't watching. The horses' best protection there is the lads & lasses who look after them & who genuinely love them as though they are their own family pets. There will always be whistle-blowers if anyone steps out of line. I've had shares in numerous syndicated horses over the years, visited dozens of yards, talked with many stable staff, and seen for myself. |
So thank the stars that that sort of thing doesn’t happen over there, and also thank the stars that there is a British tribunal to ensure the Paddy is flogged to death in case the Paddies don’t do enough? | |
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| The Gordon Elliot photo on 19:49 - Mar 5 with 2038 views | Ryorry |
| The Gordon Elliot photo on 18:54 - Mar 5 by Moriarty |
So thank the stars that that sort of thing doesn’t happen over there, and also thank the stars that there is a British tribunal to ensure the Paddy is flogged to death in case the Paddies don’t do enough? |
I'd forgotten his location & am not going to get sucked into any stupid arguments about Irish v UK racing. I think GE will now be shunned by many in the racing industry, and I doubt there'll be many owners queuing up to place their horses with him when he is allowed back. | |
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| The Gordon Elliot photo on 19:53 - Mar 5 with 2026 views | J2BLUE |
| The Gordon Elliot photo on 18:54 - Mar 5 by Moriarty |
So thank the stars that that sort of thing doesn’t happen over there, and also thank the stars that there is a British tribunal to ensure the Paddy is flogged to death in case the Paddies don’t do enough? |
Think you're being unfair here. Clearly wasn't meant to be disrespectful to the Irish in any way. |  |
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| The Gordon Elliot photo on 20:03 - Mar 5 with 1993 views | Ryorry |
| The Gordon Elliot photo on 19:53 - Mar 5 by J2BLUE |
Think you're being unfair here. Clearly wasn't meant to be disrespectful to the Irish in any way. |
Thanks - yes, hadn't even occurred to me, I'd quite simply forgotten where he was based & was actually referring to him as tho he was a UK trainer. | |
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| The Gordon Elliot photo on 20:09 - Mar 5 with 1985 views | Moriarty |
| The Gordon Elliot photo on 19:53 - Mar 5 by J2BLUE |
Think you're being unfair here. Clearly wasn't meant to be disrespectful to the Irish in any way. |
The matter was before the Irish board today, as is perfectly clear from the opening post. | |
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| The Gordon Elliot photo on 20:15 - Mar 5 with 1965 views | J2BLUE |
| The Gordon Elliot photo on 20:09 - Mar 5 by Moriarty |
The matter was before the Irish board today, as is perfectly clear from the opening post. |
I'm sure it was an innocent mistake. The BHA have given the same punishment as the Irish. No one thinks the Irish need the British to rule for them.
At Cheltenham it's always the Irish vs the British where they keep score so Britain looks at Ireland with nothing but respect! | |
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| The Gordon Elliot photo on 20:17 - Mar 5 with 1954 views | Ryorry |
| The Gordon Elliot photo on 20:09 - Mar 5 by Moriarty |
The matter was before the Irish board today, as is perfectly clear from the opening post. |
Well I'm very sorry but some of us don't have great memories & don't re-read numerous times, all the details of every extremely long post when the discussion has developed way beyond that hours later. [Post edited 5 Mar 2021 20:20]
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| The Gordon Elliot photo on 20:53 - Mar 5 with 1898 views | Moriarty |
| The Gordon Elliot photo on 20:17 - Mar 5 by Ryorry |
Well I'm very sorry but some of us don't have great memories & don't re-read numerous times, all the details of every extremely long post when the discussion has developed way beyond that hours later. [Post edited 5 Mar 2021 20:20]
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It seems to me (although open to correction) that when an Irish trainer does a wrong in Ireland, it is the Irish board, and not the U.K. one, which has jurisdiction to decide the penal sanction.
Suggestions that U.K. authorities have jurisdiction here isn’t usually taken as a compliment. For historical reasons.
Obviously licences to operate in the U.K. are matters for the U.K. authority.
As have many others I’m sure, I’ve heard various things from people in the industry which make it clear to me there are worse sins that what GE did, distasteful and all as it was, and that those sins are certainly not confined to any specific country. | |
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| The Gordon Elliot photo on 21:07 - Mar 5 with 1878 views | Ryorry |
| The Gordon Elliot photo on 20:53 - Mar 5 by Moriarty |
It seems to me (although open to correction) that when an Irish trainer does a wrong in Ireland, it is the Irish board, and not the U.K. one, which has jurisdiction to decide the penal sanction.
Suggestions that U.K. authorities have jurisdiction here isn’t usually taken as a compliment. For historical reasons.
Obviously licences to operate in the U.K. are matters for the U.K. authority.
As have many others I’m sure, I’ve heard various things from people in the industry which make it clear to me there are worse sins that what GE did, distasteful and all as it was, and that those sins are certainly not confined to any specific country. |
Or you could just graciously have taken my explanation at face value. Sorry to disappoint - as I said, I'm not perfect.
Not sure why you're looking for an argument, but I'm out. | |
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| The Gordon Elliot photo on 21:12 - Mar 5 with 1862 views | J2BLUE |
| The Gordon Elliot photo on 20:53 - Mar 5 by Moriarty |
It seems to me (although open to correction) that when an Irish trainer does a wrong in Ireland, it is the Irish board, and not the U.K. one, which has jurisdiction to decide the penal sanction.
Suggestions that U.K. authorities have jurisdiction here isn’t usually taken as a compliment. For historical reasons.
Obviously licences to operate in the U.K. are matters for the U.K. authority.
As have many others I’m sure, I’ve heard various things from people in the industry which make it clear to me there are worse sins that what GE did, distasteful and all as it was, and that those sins are certainly not confined to any specific country. |
Genuine question. Isn't it down to each country to rule on who can or cannot take place in events held in their country? Of course it was a matter for Ireland but they can't stop him being involved in British racing can they? I'm genuinely asking. It needs both to suspect him to stop him participating in any race in Ireland and Britain?
I agree there are bound to be worse sins than what he did. Sadly some humans think only of how they can exploit animals for personal gain whether it's racing, animal foods, dog breeding etc. | |
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| The Gordon Elliot photo on 21:22 - Mar 5 with 1845 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| The Gordon Elliot photo on 21:12 - Mar 5 by J2BLUE |
Genuine question. Isn't it down to each country to rule on who can or cannot take place in events held in their country? Of course it was a matter for Ireland but they can't stop him being involved in British racing can they? I'm genuinely asking. It needs both to suspect him to stop him participating in any race in Ireland and Britain?
I agree there are bound to be worse sins than what he did. Sadly some humans think only of how they can exploit animals for personal gain whether it's racing, animal foods, dog breeding etc. |
Hi mate. Basically.. they can stop him. Ireland (IHRB) could have taken his license away. They have done that which means he can’t train a horse at all. Whether that’s to be entered in england or Ireland or wherever. He’s banned for 6 months plus the 6 suspended months.
What Britain (BHA) had previously done was to block his entries for the UK temporarily until the matter was settled. This was because of the outside possibility that Ireland would not have the hearing until the summer or that he would appeal the verdict - thus taking the situation past Cheltenham and Aintree. | |
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| The Gordon Elliot photo on 21:24 - Mar 5 with 1826 views | J2BLUE |
| The Gordon Elliot photo on 21:22 - Mar 5 by The_Romford_Blue |
Hi mate. Basically.. they can stop him. Ireland (IHRB) could have taken his license away. They have done that which means he can’t train a horse at all. Whether that’s to be entered in england or Ireland or wherever. He’s banned for 6 months plus the 6 suspended months.
What Britain (BHA) had previously done was to block his entries for the UK temporarily until the matter was settled. This was because of the outside possibility that Ireland would not have the hearing until the summer or that he would appeal the verdict - thus taking the situation past Cheltenham and Aintree. |
Ahh cheers. I will watch with interest to see what else comes out about him. Do you think it will be soon or will they wait until he's just about to return to keep the story going? | |
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