| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:00 - Mar 15 with 887 views | bluelagos |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 12:55 - Mar 15 by MattinLondon |
Isn’t rape quite extreme hard to prove? Especially if it happens in the home of either the accused or victim? Maybe out alcohol in the equation as well I would imagine that an experienced lawyer will be able to seed a few doubts in the minds of the juror. If the man has a history of good behaviour with not violent convictions then that makes the case against him even harder to prove.
I’m not making excuses as the conviction rate is extremely poor but it must be very hard to prove. |
Incredibly hard.
When it comes down to a "He said - she said" the level of convictions will be low, absolutely.
So there are reasons why it is lower than say for murder. But 3%? And falling. |  |
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| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:02 - Mar 15 with 879 views | itfcjoe |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 12:58 - Mar 15 by bluelagos |
We have a legal system that does 2 things it seems to me.
1. It assumes we all innocent unless convicted (Which I accept)
2. It fails miserably to convict men for sexual assualts.
Now I am happy to concede that a man, who is unconvicted is innocent in the eyes of the law. But the question of why are the level of convictions so low remains to be addressed... |
Fairly simply it is a crime that is very hard to prove or disprove as is invariably a case of he said/she said |  |
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| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:06 - Mar 15 with 852 views | bluelagos |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:02 - Mar 15 by itfcjoe |
Fairly simply it is a crime that is very hard to prove or disprove as is invariably a case of he said/she said |
Often it is exactly that. But am still struggling to think we can't do more to look at it and do more.
Seems to be a lot of defeatism here. (Cos I don't believe people are happy with the current low levels of conviction) | |
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| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:08 - Mar 15 with 845 views | Darth_Koont |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 12:58 - Mar 15 by bluelagos |
We have a legal system that does 2 things it seems to me.
1. It assumes we all innocent unless convicted (Which I accept)
2. It fails miserably to convict men for sexual assualts.
Now I am happy to concede that a man, who is unconvicted is innocent in the eyes of the law. But the question of why are the level of convictions so low remains to be addressed... |
Think gordon’s post and linked Twitter thread on the previous page explains a lot of that. Looks to be some fairly major hurdles that will reduce the likelihood of a conviction the further down the long and torturous path you go. |  |
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| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:09 - Mar 15 with 841 views | gordon |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:02 - Mar 15 by itfcjoe |
Fairly simply it is a crime that is very hard to prove or disprove as is invariably a case of he said/she said |
The fact that (I think these statistics are up to date) that about 85,000 women report being raped every year and there are about 1,500 convictions each year is shocking. |  | | |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:10 - Mar 15 with 833 views | itfcjoe |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:06 - Mar 15 by bluelagos |
Often it is exactly that. But am still struggling to think we can't do more to look at it and do more.
Seems to be a lot of defeatism here. (Cos I don't believe people are happy with the current low levels of conviction) |
There is obviously a systemic failure in this, which must begin well before the case gets to court. | |
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| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:11 - Mar 15 with 836 views | MattinLondon |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:00 - Mar 15 by bluelagos |
Incredibly hard.
When it comes down to a "He said - she said" the level of convictions will be low, absolutely.
So there are reasons why it is lower than say for murder. But 3%? And falling. |
I used to live in a house share with a copper who said that the image of rape which is portrayed sometimes on screens - a woman dragged off the street etc - is extremely rare in comparison to a husband, boyfriend or friend raping the victim in their own home.
He also mentioned that the CPS only bring cases when they think they have a good change of conviction - hence why a lot of rape cases aren’t even brought to trial.
I have no idea how to make the conviction rate higher - maybe ban the prosecution from alluring to how the victim was dressed (not sure if this is already the case).
Edit
He (police mate who I used to share a house with) mentioned that men don’t just become rapist overnight, there intends to be a history of sexual harassment etc prior to more serious offences). Where I live now, a young lad has just been prosecuted for groping women jogging or walking on the street/ canal then cycling off quickly. Maybe if caught try to educate the attacker as to why he did it and the effects it has on the victim. And be more sever in terms of punishment. [Post edited 15 Mar 2021 13:17]
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| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:15 - Mar 15 with 824 views | Darth_Koont |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 12:56 - Mar 15 by giant_stow |
Just to be clear, when I say tiny minority, I'm referring to men who rape and assault. Thats where the comparison with generalising curfews for other groups is valid. Can you imagine the outcry if anyone even suggested such a blanket ban on Muslims, as some way of making a wider point?! Its dangerous ground which devalues Jones' wider message.
Sexual harassment is a different kettle of fish and I do agree that more men will have been guilty of that, either maliciously or accidently. Equally, there will be loads of men who go out of their way to avoid unnecessary alarm, such as not walking behind women late at night. How do we reach the guilty ones?
I have no idea how to deal with harassment other than better education. I also wonder whether society and popular culture in particular is overly sex-obsessed? Sex sells and permeates everything - perhaps we could work on that, men and women together? I realise i sound very old-fashioned. |
Then I think you and he are missing the point. Women aren’t afraid to go out because they’re somehow misunderstanding the likelihood of being attacked, they’re afraid to go out because there’s a high chance they will feel threatened.
And it’s ordinary men who have a part to play in that, and need to understand and learn from it. | |
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| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:17 - Mar 15 with 813 views | bluelagos |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:08 - Mar 15 by Darth_Koont |
Think gordon’s post and linked Twitter thread on the previous page explains a lot of that. Looks to be some fairly major hurdles that will reduce the likelihood of a conviction the further down the long and torturous path you go. |
Just read it now - thx for directing me.
So austerity is playing a massive role. Govt funding are choices. Level of policing, funding of courts etc. are all political choices.
And I presume will be under even more pressure with the CV costs we are incurring... | |
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| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:20 - Mar 15 with 793 views | bluelagos |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:11 - Mar 15 by MattinLondon |
I used to live in a house share with a copper who said that the image of rape which is portrayed sometimes on screens - a woman dragged off the street etc - is extremely rare in comparison to a husband, boyfriend or friend raping the victim in their own home.
He also mentioned that the CPS only bring cases when they think they have a good change of conviction - hence why a lot of rape cases aren’t even brought to trial.
I have no idea how to make the conviction rate higher - maybe ban the prosecution from alluring to how the victim was dressed (not sure if this is already the case).
Edit
He (police mate who I used to share a house with) mentioned that men don’t just become rapist overnight, there intends to be a history of sexual harassment etc prior to more serious offences). Where I live now, a young lad has just been prosecuted for groping women jogging or walking on the street/ canal then cycling off quickly. Maybe if caught try to educate the attacker as to why he did it and the effects it has on the victim. And be more sever in terms of punishment. [Post edited 15 Mar 2021 13:17]
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One complaint I hear a lot from people supporting rape victims, is that it is the victim who is often put on trial. Her clothing, her sexual history, her behaviour are all angles for the legal defense team to address and try and to sow a doubt into jury's view of things. | |
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| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:21 - Mar 15 with 790 views | giant_stow |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:15 - Mar 15 by Darth_Koont |
Then I think you and he are missing the point. Women aren’t afraid to go out because they’re somehow misunderstanding the likelihood of being attacked, they’re afraid to go out because there’s a high chance they will feel threatened.
And it’s ordinary men who have a part to play in that, and need to understand and learn from it. |
Forgive me, but I’m not missing that point — I can see the fear and anger out there very clearly
I just think that ‘ordinary’ or ‘decent’ men, who are in the majority imo, are already up on this: teaching their sons right from wrong, being good allies to females, speaking out etc…. I’m wondering how to reach the sh1tbags who aren’t and one way, other than education, is to look at / fix society as a whole (as with so many other issues). |  |
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| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:25 - Mar 15 with 773 views | Darth_Koont |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:21 - Mar 15 by giant_stow |
Forgive me, but I’m not missing that point — I can see the fear and anger out there very clearly
I just think that ‘ordinary’ or ‘decent’ men, who are in the majority imo, are already up on this: teaching their sons right from wrong, being good allies to females, speaking out etc…. I’m wondering how to reach the sh1tbags who aren’t and one way, other than education, is to look at / fix society as a whole (as with so many other issues). |
I think it’s fair to say we can be a lot better. And shouldn’t be minimising it through saying it’s about a tiny minority of men. It really isn’t. | |
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| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:28 - Mar 15 with 757 views | MattinLondon |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:20 - Mar 15 by bluelagos |
One complaint I hear a lot from people supporting rape victims, is that it is the victim who is often put on trial. Her clothing, her sexual history, her behaviour are all angles for the legal defense team to address and try and to sow a doubt into jury's view of things. |
I honestly thought the ‘she was asking for it as she was wearing a low cut top etc’ defence had been eradicated but, unfortunately it hasn’t.
But thinking about it, a recent high profile case used a similar defence to discredit the victim. | | | |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:33 - Mar 15 with 735 views | borge |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 12:38 - Mar 15 by Mookamoo |
There is (or was pre Covid) a very good scheme in Ipswich run by Volunteer Matters. They take male volunteers to act as role models to groups of 12-16 year olds in schools and basically teach them not to be a-holes. They get young actors in to do small plays, role playing etc.
Young men need education and positive people in their lives. |
I think this has to be the way forward.
There is obviously a ground-swell of opinion that there is a degree of 're-education' required among the male population and I don't disagree with that.
Last week on here there was plenty of talk about what people could do differently and one of the suggestions was to not walk behind a female in a way that could be deemed as threatening. On Friday I found myself walking behind a woman who was going slowly and I realised me pacing up at speed behind her may have been intimidating. It was daylight hours, but I still slowed my pace and moved across the street. I wouldn't have done that had this debate not have started and I think this kind of thought/education can and will have a really powerful impact.
However, there is a danger that will be at a fairly superficial level. The very fact that some of us are changing our behaviour suggests we aren't the ones that need to be targeted. There is a somewhat perverse argument that encouraging better behaviours in those who aren't likely to commit crimes against women will make women feel safer whilst not actually addressing the threat.
I think the only effective way of properly changing the behaviours that cause the greatest issues/fear is to ensure kids are adequately taught about what is/isn't acceptable in order to stamp out misogynistic attitudes early. Whether behaviours of adults who are prone to violence against women can easily be changed is sadly debateable, so this might unfortunately be something that needs a lot of long-term work and unfortunately won't change overnight. |  | | |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:34 - Mar 15 with 740 views | factual_blue |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 12:18 - Mar 15 by CBBlue |
I think she's trying to make a point. Women are often warned about going out alone after dark, indeed some on here posted on another thread that they wouldn't be happy about their wife/daughter walking alone in London after dark and many women are too scared to go out after dark.
The point is many women effectively have already been given an unwritten 6pm curfew. |
The immense challenge is to help to change womens' perceptions.
The even bigger challenge is to change mens' behaviour. But not just at night: too many mens' attitudes are from the stone age, and - from what one hears - freely expressed as such on social media.
Are posts on here objectifying women going to stop?
Let's see. |  |
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| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:36 - Mar 15 with 724 views | bluelagos |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:28 - Mar 15 by MattinLondon |
I honestly thought the ‘she was asking for it as she was wearing a low cut top etc’ defence had been eradicated but, unfortunately it hasn’t.
But thinking about it, a recent high profile case used a similar defence to discredit the victim. |
I am not close to this - but the sexual history of a victim is definitely seen as fair game by defense lawyers. So after the trauma of being attacked, you get to have your sexual history discussed in a public forum by a defense lawyer.
There has to be a more respectful and appropriate way to look at this. No wonder many cases get nowhere near court as victims understandably chose not to put themselves through that additional ordeal. | |
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| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:40 - Mar 15 with 705 views | townblue |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 11:42 - Mar 15 by bluelagos |
She was clearly hoping to prompt a debate rather than it being a serious suggestion.
Hence what can we do to ensure women's safety is improved? What can us men do? Answer that and we can happily assume we'll still be allowed out after 6.. |
I understand this. The problem I have is that I have not seen anyone who has answers for the questions you have raised.
I worry too that any measures suggested would just be ignored by the people most likely to commit these crimes.
Edit: I hadn't read the full thread and see education is the answer which is fair enough. I'm still not sure it would reach the real perpetrators. [Post edited 15 Mar 2021 13:44]
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| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:41 - Mar 15 with 706 views | borge |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 12:56 - Mar 15 by giant_stow |
Just to be clear, when I say tiny minority, I'm referring to men who rape and assault. Thats where the comparison with generalising curfews for other groups is valid. Can you imagine the outcry if anyone even suggested such a blanket ban on Muslims, as some way of making a wider point?! Its dangerous ground which devalues Jones' wider message.
Sexual harassment is a different kettle of fish and I do agree that more men will have been guilty of that, either maliciously or accidently. Equally, there will be loads of men who go out of their way to avoid unnecessary alarm, such as not walking behind women late at night. How do we reach the guilty ones?
I have no idea how to deal with harassment other than better education. I also wonder whether society and popular culture in particular is overly sex-obsessed? Sex sells and permeates everything - perhaps we could work on that, men and women together? I realise i sound very old-fashioned. |
I think it's a really dangerous road to go down to suggest that society is sex-obsessed.
There are certainly ways in which we can change the way in which we use sex and sexual/sexualised imagery, but sex shouldn't be confused with abuse and shouldn't be assumed to be some kind of trigger that leads to harassment, violence of any other form of criminal activity.
We already have sexual activity rates dropping massively amongst younger generations and I fear we're getting to the point where they feel sex is a bad thing. There seems to be a fear of feeling sexy, perceiving someone else to be sexy and sex itself. That's a really sad thing to be happening.
That said, if you are just coming from the perspective of thinking we need to 're-frame' sex and move it away from the porn industry version then I totally get that. | | | |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:45 - Mar 15 with 695 views | bluelagos |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:34 - Mar 15 by factual_blue |
The immense challenge is to help to change womens' perceptions.
The even bigger challenge is to change mens' behaviour. But not just at night: too many mens' attitudes are from the stone age, and - from what one hears - freely expressed as such on social media.
Are posts on here objectifying women going to stop?
Let's see. |
Here's one for admin - our site t&c are thus
"Don't swear, post libellous, racist, homophobic, threatening or adult material or harass other users"
Maybe if they can add "misogynistic" then at least people can highlight inappropriate posts just like we would for racist or homophobic ones.
Going to "abuse" my own post - just so they can see the suggestion. | |
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| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:50 - Mar 15 with 670 views | azuremerlangus |
4 words:
Rose West
Myra Hindley |  |
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| Serious case of over-reaction on 14:00 - Mar 15 with 629 views | lowhouseblue |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:11 - Mar 15 by MattinLondon |
I used to live in a house share with a copper who said that the image of rape which is portrayed sometimes on screens - a woman dragged off the street etc - is extremely rare in comparison to a husband, boyfriend or friend raping the victim in their own home.
He also mentioned that the CPS only bring cases when they think they have a good change of conviction - hence why a lot of rape cases aren’t even brought to trial.
I have no idea how to make the conviction rate higher - maybe ban the prosecution from alluring to how the victim was dressed (not sure if this is already the case).
Edit
He (police mate who I used to share a house with) mentioned that men don’t just become rapist overnight, there intends to be a history of sexual harassment etc prior to more serious offences). Where I live now, a young lad has just been prosecuted for groping women jogging or walking on the street/ canal then cycling off quickly. Maybe if caught try to educate the attacker as to why he did it and the effects it has on the victim. And be more sever in terms of punishment. [Post edited 15 Mar 2021 13:17]
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your first para is spot on. we risk over emphasising the former (attack by stranger in a public space) and creating a false perception of risk and fostering unnecessary fear, and at the same time sanitising the very nasty reality that the vast majority of assaults on women are by people they know and in a domestic setting. the current debate, based though it is on a truly horrible case, risks creating a false perception of the reality of assaults on women and the risks in different settings. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Serious case of over-reaction on 14:13 - Mar 15 with 602 views | factual_blue |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:45 - Mar 15 by bluelagos |
Here's one for admin - our site t&c are thus
"Don't swear, post libellous, racist, homophobic, threatening or adult material or harass other users"
Maybe if they can add "misogynistic" then at least people can highlight inappropriate posts just like we would for racist or homophobic ones.
Going to "abuse" my own post - just so they can see the suggestion. |
They could add ageist while they're about it.
Addendum
You could have, rather more modestly, PM'd Phil with your suggestion. [Post edited 15 Mar 2021 14:18]
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| Serious case of over-reaction on 14:19 - Mar 15 with 592 views | factual_blue |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:50 - Mar 15 by azuremerlangus |
4 words:
Rose West
Myra Hindley |
Five words:
What point are you making? | |
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| Serious case of over-reaction on 14:20 - Mar 15 with 581 views | Ryorry |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:45 - Mar 15 by bluelagos |
Here's one for admin - our site t&c are thus
"Don't swear, post libellous, racist, homophobic, threatening or adult material or harass other users"
Maybe if they can add "misogynistic" then at least people can highlight inappropriate posts just like we would for racist or homophobic ones.
Going to "abuse" my own post - just so they can see the suggestion. |
The very fact that you've posted this & that people are discussing it in a very supportive & thoughtful way, plus the two similar threads recently, shows how much TWTD forum has progressed in the past 20 years - credit to all concerned for that.
I remember the bad old days when "phwoars" and "would-you"s occured half a dozen times daily. Nowadays such posts & other casual sexism are actually pretty rare. Good work in progress TWTD 👠|  |
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| Serious case of over-reaction on 14:22 - Mar 15 with 575 views | Radlett_blue |
| Serious case of over-reaction on 13:36 - Mar 15 by bluelagos |
I am not close to this - but the sexual history of a victim is definitely seen as fair game by defense lawyers. So after the trauma of being attacked, you get to have your sexual history discussed in a public forum by a defense lawyer.
There has to be a more respectful and appropriate way to look at this. No wonder many cases get nowhere near court as victims understandably chose not to put themselves through that additional ordeal. |
The main reason why rape convictions are so low is that it usually comes down to a dispute over whether consent was given. Most rapes don't involve a man holding a woman at knife point. In these cases, the only 2 witnesses are the accused and the plaintiff so no wonder that a jury has a problem deciding who is telling the truth, especially as they are supposed to give a defendant the benefit of "reasonable doubt", rather than simply making an educated guess on the balance of probabilities. |  |
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