| Macron's starting to lose it now 12:44 - Mar 16 with 11790 views | hype313 |
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| Macron's starting to lose it now on 22:19 - Mar 16 with 1959 views | pointofblue |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 21:22 - Mar 16 by Moriarty |
It’s Boris’s wet dream. Vaccine nationalism and EU skepticism.
It really is extraordinary how some people in the U.K. can’t or won’t understand that the motivation in the suspension is caution and transparency, both of which counter anti vax ideologies which are rampant on social media and elsewhere. It’s a short stop for a greater good. How some posters on here persistently interpret that as political malice is astounding.
Throughout the suspension, it has been said time after time by the Irish govt that they have every confidence in the safety AZ, which is easily inferred as well from our frustration with their supply failures. [Post edited 16 Mar 2021 21:23]
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And yet the director general of Italy’s medicines authority called the decision political earlier today? |  |
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| Macron's starting to lose it now on 22:35 - Mar 16 with 1943 views | longtimefan |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 21:22 - Mar 16 by Moriarty |
It’s Boris’s wet dream. Vaccine nationalism and EU skepticism.
It really is extraordinary how some people in the U.K. can’t or won’t understand that the motivation in the suspension is caution and transparency, both of which counter anti vax ideologies which are rampant on social media and elsewhere. It’s a short stop for a greater good. How some posters on here persistently interpret that as political malice is astounding.
Throughout the suspension, it has been said time after time by the Irish govt that they have every confidence in the safety AZ, which is easily inferred as well from our frustration with their supply failures. [Post edited 16 Mar 2021 21:23]
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“You’re accusing governments of putting politics ahead of people’s health? That’s how you see it? “
This was your accusation to someone in the thread earlier, and then come out with
“It’s Boris’s wet dream. Vaccine nationalism and EU skepticism.”
Somewhat hypocritical don’t you think? | | | |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 00:28 - Mar 17 with 1919 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 16:04 - Mar 16 by Moriarty |
We have.
But AZ’s supply failures have been there since the beginning and well before the temporary suspension. Its BS of the highest order to present that temporary and precautionary measure as an excuse for AZ’s failures. Ireland has acted in like manner with other countries, and it’s widely expected that vaccinations with AZ will resume this week, after EMA approval. The supply failures however will continue.
Safety processes and supply failures should not be muddled. |
A few points. As I understand it, the delays in the roll out of AZ vaccines are because the major production facility was partially closed for a while in order to upgrade it so that it had a significantly greater capacity in the longer term. It's a strategic decision made to, overall, greatly improve supply, but which caused initial problems.
AZ isn't deliberately going "Ha ha ha, we're not going to supply what we promised just to pish you off."
AZ is an Anglo-Swiss company.
How much of the upfront funding of the Oxford University research did the Irish Government put in? I genuinely don't know the answer to that one. | | | |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 08:13 - Mar 17 with 1858 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 00:28 - Mar 17 by ArnoldMoorhen |
A few points. As I understand it, the delays in the roll out of AZ vaccines are because the major production facility was partially closed for a while in order to upgrade it so that it had a significantly greater capacity in the longer term. It's a strategic decision made to, overall, greatly improve supply, but which caused initial problems.
AZ isn't deliberately going "Ha ha ha, we're not going to supply what we promised just to pish you off."
AZ is an Anglo-Swiss company.
How much of the upfront funding of the Oxford University research did the Irish Government put in? I genuinely don't know the answer to that one. |
Thought the EU acted as one so presumably Ireland put in their share of whatever the EU put in.
It is worth pointing out, to those who fail to grasp reality, that every decision made by governments on Covid has been a political decision. Sometimes they accept, and follow, the advice given by experts other times they don’t.
The decision to pause the use of the AZ vaccine was a political decision pure and simple.
Someone asked why they hadn’t taken the same decision with regards to Pfizer vaccine guess it is because they feared the response. |  |
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| Macron's starting to lose it now on 08:43 - Mar 17 with 1842 views | GeoffSentence |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 16:04 - Mar 16 by Moriarty |
We have.
But AZ’s supply failures have been there since the beginning and well before the temporary suspension. Its BS of the highest order to present that temporary and precautionary measure as an excuse for AZ’s failures. Ireland has acted in like manner with other countries, and it’s widely expected that vaccinations with AZ will resume this week, after EMA approval. The supply failures however will continue.
Safety processes and supply failures should not be muddled. |
It's hardly a precautionary measure to suspend vaccinations, it's fwcking reckless.
It puts people in danger of a proven high risk issue to avoid a low risk unproven one.
It's not just doing that directly, it also feeds into vaccine hesitancy and will reduce take up rates.
At lot of governments in Europe have lost their minds, and for once it isn't ours. |  |
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| Macron's starting to lose it now on 08:48 - Mar 17 with 1835 views | giant_stow |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 08:43 - Mar 17 by GeoffSentence |
It's hardly a precautionary measure to suspend vaccinations, it's fwcking reckless.
It puts people in danger of a proven high risk issue to avoid a low risk unproven one.
It's not just doing that directly, it also feeds into vaccine hesitancy and will reduce take up rates.
At lot of governments in Europe have lost their minds, and for once it isn't ours. |
Nailed it. |  |
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| Macron's starting to lose it now on 10:38 - Mar 17 with 1786 views | Moriarty |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 08:43 - Mar 17 by GeoffSentence |
It's hardly a precautionary measure to suspend vaccinations, it's fwcking reckless.
It puts people in danger of a proven high risk issue to avoid a low risk unproven one.
It's not just doing that directly, it also feeds into vaccine hesitancy and will reduce take up rates.
At lot of governments in Europe have lost their minds, and for once it isn't ours. |
It’s a precautionary measure. Transparency is another factor. You’re ignoring their position. Utterly unconcerned with trying to see it from their point of view.
The true position is that ignoring the reported deaths would embolden the anti vax brigade.
You’ve completely ignored the point that the measures are temporary and that here at least, the govt message has always been that they believe that the science will prevail and that AZ is safe.
However, blinded by vaccine nationalism, some posters on here choose to ignore issues, such as AZ supply failure in Ireland, and misconstrue those issues as “politics”. That sort of interpretation and presentation is both stupid and self serving.
This is anti EU, anti Irish, because they have had the temerity to raise issues about AZ which you any others entirely misconstrue as an attack on your country.
I’ve noticed a very palpable and misguided sense of nationalism from some posters, not just in this thread, and I can reflect on that myself in days to come. |  |
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| Macron's starting to lose it now on 10:44 - Mar 17 with 1777 views | pointofblue |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 10:38 - Mar 17 by Moriarty |
It’s a precautionary measure. Transparency is another factor. You’re ignoring their position. Utterly unconcerned with trying to see it from their point of view.
The true position is that ignoring the reported deaths would embolden the anti vax brigade.
You’ve completely ignored the point that the measures are temporary and that here at least, the govt message has always been that they believe that the science will prevail and that AZ is safe.
However, blinded by vaccine nationalism, some posters on here choose to ignore issues, such as AZ supply failure in Ireland, and misconstrue those issues as “politics”. That sort of interpretation and presentation is both stupid and self serving.
This is anti EU, anti Irish, because they have had the temerity to raise issues about AZ which you any others entirely misconstrue as an attack on your country.
I’ve noticed a very palpable and misguided sense of nationalism from some posters, not just in this thread, and I can reflect on that myself in days to come. |
I don’t think anyone is saying, or should be saying, that it is a political decision against the U.K. but it is a political over science decision against AZ - as I’ve pointed out twice already the director general of the medicines authority in Italy said as much yesterday.
If it was a scientific decision then surely the WHO and EMA would be saying stop the vaccinations? They’re doing the opposite. | |
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| Macron's starting to lose it now on 10:46 - Mar 17 with 1773 views | hype313 |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 10:38 - Mar 17 by Moriarty |
It’s a precautionary measure. Transparency is another factor. You’re ignoring their position. Utterly unconcerned with trying to see it from their point of view.
The true position is that ignoring the reported deaths would embolden the anti vax brigade.
You’ve completely ignored the point that the measures are temporary and that here at least, the govt message has always been that they believe that the science will prevail and that AZ is safe.
However, blinded by vaccine nationalism, some posters on here choose to ignore issues, such as AZ supply failure in Ireland, and misconstrue those issues as “politics”. That sort of interpretation and presentation is both stupid and self serving.
This is anti EU, anti Irish, because they have had the temerity to raise issues about AZ which you any others entirely misconstrue as an attack on your country.
I’ve noticed a very palpable and misguided sense of nationalism from some posters, not just in this thread, and I can reflect on that myself in days to come. |
We're not talking about supply failure in this thread, and even with that, it's been proven why this has happened, nothing nationalist at all, just organisation and planning differences.
You're throwing accusations about a few of us on here that we're rabid nationalists, which is extremely offensive.
I suggest you calm down the rhetoric, as we're merely talking about the mad decision taken by certain European countries | |
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| Macron's starting to lose it now on 11:12 - Mar 17 with 1735 views | GeoffSentence |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 10:38 - Mar 17 by Moriarty |
It’s a precautionary measure. Transparency is another factor. You’re ignoring their position. Utterly unconcerned with trying to see it from their point of view.
The true position is that ignoring the reported deaths would embolden the anti vax brigade.
You’ve completely ignored the point that the measures are temporary and that here at least, the govt message has always been that they believe that the science will prevail and that AZ is safe.
However, blinded by vaccine nationalism, some posters on here choose to ignore issues, such as AZ supply failure in Ireland, and misconstrue those issues as “politics”. That sort of interpretation and presentation is both stupid and self serving.
This is anti EU, anti Irish, because they have had the temerity to raise issues about AZ which you any others entirely misconstrue as an attack on your country.
I’ve noticed a very palpable and misguided sense of nationalism from some posters, not just in this thread, and I can reflect on that myself in days to come. |
Sorry but I think you are chucking the term 'vaccine nationalism' around carelessly.
There is good reason to disagree with approach taken by some EU governments. The approach they are taking is risky and to say so is not based on nationalism. | |
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| Macron's starting to lose it now on 11:48 - Mar 17 with 1697 views | giant_stow |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 11:12 - Mar 17 by GeoffSentence |
Sorry but I think you are chucking the term 'vaccine nationalism' around carelessly.
There is good reason to disagree with approach taken by some EU governments. The approach they are taking is risky and to say so is not based on nationalism. |
The only nationalism I'm seeing is of the defensive variety: "my country right or wrong", displayed by Moriarty.
I guess this is confusing for remainers like me too - we in the Uk are used to being the obstructionist, Thatcherite, laggard bad guys, but we need to go with facts. [Post edited 17 Mar 2021 11:53]
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| Macron's starting to lose it now on 11:54 - Mar 17 with 1687 views | hype313 |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 11:48 - Mar 17 by giant_stow |
The only nationalism I'm seeing is of the defensive variety: "my country right or wrong", displayed by Moriarty.
I guess this is confusing for remainers like me too - we in the Uk are used to being the obstructionist, Thatcherite, laggard bad guys, but we need to go with facts. [Post edited 17 Mar 2021 11:53]
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It's not even a question of remain or leave, or nationalism, it's simply a case of right v wrong, and clearly the countries in the EU are taking the wrong route, as plenty of politicians in those countries are saying so.
The main point for me is when do we ever make personal risk decisions based on the worst based scenario? | |
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| Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:00 - Mar 17 with 1677 views | giant_stow |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 11:54 - Mar 17 by hype313 |
It's not even a question of remain or leave, or nationalism, it's simply a case of right v wrong, and clearly the countries in the EU are taking the wrong route, as plenty of politicians in those countries are saying so.
The main point for me is when do we ever make personal risk decisions based on the worst based scenario? |
You're right, it shouldn't be a question of remain/leave etc, but I also reckon it's gonna inevitably be framed like that as the results of EU failures become clearer.
Bang on the personal risk point. | |
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| Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:01 - Mar 17 with 1673 views | Moriarty |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 11:12 - Mar 17 by GeoffSentence |
Sorry but I think you are chucking the term 'vaccine nationalism' around carelessly.
There is good reason to disagree with approach taken by some EU governments. The approach they are taking is risky and to say so is not based on nationalism. |
No I’m not.
I’ve taken issue with the crass accusations made by Hype and others that the actions of the Irish govt l, or concerns they raised concerning delay, are based purely on politics.
That’s what offensive. | |
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| Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:08 - Mar 17 with 1650 views | pointofblue |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:01 - Mar 17 by Moriarty |
No I’m not.
I’ve taken issue with the crass accusations made by Hype and others that the actions of the Irish govt l, or concerns they raised concerning delay, are based purely on politics.
That’s what offensive. |
Why have so many European governments, and other governments, chosen to ignore the advise of the WHO and EMA? Why has the director general of the Italian medicine authority (I’m repeating this as this is point has never been responded to) himself called the move political?
ETA:
The decision by some European countries to suspend the rollout of the Oxford-AstraZeneca Covid vaccine is a "political one", the director general of Italy's medicines authority AIFA has said.
Italy, Germany, France and Spain are among the countries to halt the use of the vaccine after a number of cases of blood clots were reported in Europe following the vaccine being administered.
"We got to the point of a suspension because several European countries, including Germany and France, preferred to interrupt vaccinations... to put them on hold in order to carry out checks. The choice is a political one," Nicola Magrini told Italian daily newspaper la Repubblica.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-56412074/page/3
(at 11am) [Post edited 17 Mar 2021 12:11]
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| Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:15 - Mar 17 with 1634 views | Moriarty |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 10:46 - Mar 17 by hype313 |
We're not talking about supply failure in this thread, and even with that, it's been proven why this has happened, nothing nationalist at all, just organisation and planning differences.
You're throwing accusations about a few of us on here that we're rabid nationalists, which is extremely offensive.
I suggest you calm down the rhetoric, as we're merely talking about the mad decision taken by certain European countries |
Hang on, now you’re saying you’re not talking about supply failure even though the thread you started quotes Macron as threatening to sue the EU over supply failure?
Give me a break.
As I say, I’ll reflect on what I’ve seen and read, on this and other threads, over the next few days. | |
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| Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:32 - Mar 17 with 1595 views | StokieBlue |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:15 - Mar 17 by Moriarty |
Hang on, now you’re saying you’re not talking about supply failure even though the thread you started quotes Macron as threatening to sue the EU over supply failure?
Give me a break.
As I say, I’ll reflect on what I’ve seen and read, on this and other threads, over the next few days. |
I don't think that's entirely fair.
Threads can and do deviate from the initial post through natural evolution. There are posts on here which deal with the supply issue, there are posts about the stance of some EU countries not to allow the vaccine and there are posts about both together.
Most of them are clear on which aspect they are talking about in their posts.
SB |  | | |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:38 - Mar 17 with 1581 views | hype313 |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:01 - Mar 17 by Moriarty |
No I’m not.
I’ve taken issue with the crass accusations made by Hype and others that the actions of the Irish govt l, or concerns they raised concerning delay, are based purely on politics.
That’s what offensive. |
If I have offended you then I apologise, but I'm trying to ascertain where I have made crass comments? | |
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| Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:40 - Mar 17 with 1574 views | Moriarty |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:32 - Mar 17 by StokieBlue |
I don't think that's entirely fair.
Threads can and do deviate from the initial post through natural evolution. There are posts on here which deal with the supply issue, there are posts about the stance of some EU countries not to allow the vaccine and there are posts about both together.
Most of them are clear on which aspect they are talking about in their posts.
SB |
Let’s quote him then shall we : -
“We’re not talking about supply failure in this thread”. | |
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| Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:44 - Mar 17 with 1564 views | GlasgowBlue |
I wonder what country with a higher vaccine rate could she possibly mean?
Oh and she wants to suspend intellectual property rights. |  |
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| Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:44 - Mar 17 with 1559 views | StokieBlue |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:40 - Mar 17 by Moriarty |
Let’s quote him then shall we : -
“We’re not talking about supply failure in this thread”. |
As I said, virtually every thread on here evolves and becomes far more than the initial post. Clearly a number of his posts refer specifically to the decision not to allow the vaccine in some countries
No real need for the angry responses. I'll leave you to it.
SB [Post edited 17 Mar 2021 12:50]
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| Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:52 - Mar 17 with 1536 views | StokieBlue |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:44 - Mar 17 by GlasgowBlue |
I wonder what country with a higher vaccine rate could she possibly mean?
Oh and she wants to suspend intellectual property rights. |
For the second part, does she want to do that for all vaccines?
No chance they will be getting any of the US ones if they take that route.
However she might have a good point, whilst the drug companies obviously want to make a profit perhaps a one-off fee to them in order to waive the rights so that the vaccine can be made anywhere and everywhere would be the best thing for the planet as whole.
SB | | | |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:54 - Mar 17 with 1527 views | Churchman |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:44 - Mar 17 by GlasgowBlue |
I wonder what country with a higher vaccine rate could she possibly mean?
Oh and she wants to suspend intellectual property rights. |
So the Brexit punishment is to continue then. I take it the plan is to especially stop Pfizer from issuing enough vaccine for second doses so those people who have had one dose, a lot of elderly people, can be made more vulnerable.
How charming. And people on this board think their actions are not political. |  | | |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:57 - Mar 17 with 1518 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:52 - Mar 17 by StokieBlue |
For the second part, does she want to do that for all vaccines?
No chance they will be getting any of the US ones if they take that route.
However she might have a good point, whilst the drug companies obviously want to make a profit perhaps a one-off fee to them in order to waive the rights so that the vaccine can be made anywhere and everywhere would be the best thing for the planet as whole.
SB |
IPR rights have been on the agenda for ages. Several countries have been lobbying the UK to drop it's opposition to waiving IPR rights, for exactly the reasons you mention (for the good of all, to allow more vaccines to be made faster).
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/19/uk-faces-calls-drop-opposition-pat
https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/what-we-do/news-stories/news/msf-modernas- |  |
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| Macron's starting to lose it now on 13:01 - Mar 17 with 1500 views | pointofblue |
| Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:54 - Mar 17 by Churchman |
So the Brexit punishment is to continue then. I take it the plan is to especially stop Pfizer from issuing enough vaccine for second doses so those people who have had one dose, a lot of elderly people, can be made more vulnerable.
How charming. And people on this board think their actions are not political. |
It’s nothing to do with Brexit - it’s because our vaccine programme is ahead of the EU’s. Same as the export to Australia being blocked. | |
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