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Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:38 - Mar 17 by hype313
If I have offended you then I apologise, but I'm trying to ascertain where I have made crass comments?
It’s all there, right from the start.
Perception is reality I guess and what I’ve perceived, not just in this thread, and not just from some of your posts, is an unleashing of U.K. nationalism against anything pro EU or which questions AZ, in this thread their supply issues, and the decision of sovereign govts to take a certain course. The discourse from you was never to examine that, it was simply to condemn and entertain nothing else but it being a political snipe by certain states, including my own.
As has been conveniently ignored, the Irish govt have made it clear their view is this is temporary and they believe AZ jab is safe. The supply failures however are not temporary and affect many people in this country, even some known to me. I’ve said that above.
Pointofblue’s question is a good and fair question - should we drive on as the U.K. is doing, or suspend temporarily. But that discourse is not what is driving the pile on here. It’s out and out vaccine nationalism - an unwillingness to entertain any question about AZ/AZ supply failures as any other than political envy or malice.
So in as much as you and others might try and comfort yourselves by denying any sort of unleashing of U.K. nationalism, equally, it is open to me to reflect on how I see it on the context of this and other threads.
So I’ll leave the thread hence to others and as I say, can reflect on things overall myself over the next few days.
[Post edited 17 Mar 2021 13:08]
fka omuircheartaigh
0
Macron's starting to lose it now on 13:07 - Mar 17 with 1880 views
Macron's starting to lose it now on 12:44 - Mar 17 by GlasgowBlue
I wonder what country with a higher vaccine rate could she possibly mean?
Oh and she wants to suspend intellectual property rights.
Distraction politics. Everyone is to blame except of course the EU.
Does she realise that an EU company has developed, and will produce, a vaccine in Scotland. Novavax are expected to seek approval for their vaccine early next month.
So to recap AZ have under produced a vaccine that the majority of EU citizens are, by their national governments, banned from being given.
Macron's starting to lose it now on 13:03 - Mar 17 by Moriarty
It’s all there, right from the start.
Perception is reality I guess and what I’ve perceived, not just in this thread, and not just from some of your posts, is an unleashing of U.K. nationalism against anything pro EU or which questions AZ, in this thread their supply issues, and the decision of sovereign govts to take a certain course. The discourse from you was never to examine that, it was simply to condemn and entertain nothing else but it being a political snipe by certain states, including my own.
As has been conveniently ignored, the Irish govt have made it clear their view is this is temporary and they believe AZ jab is safe. The supply failures however are not temporary and affect many people in this country, even some known to me. I’ve said that above.
Pointofblue’s question is a good and fair question - should we drive on as the U.K. is doing, or suspend temporarily. But that discourse is not what is driving the pile on here. It’s out and out vaccine nationalism - an unwillingness to entertain any question about AZ/AZ supply failures as any other than political envy or malice.
So in as much as you and others might try and comfort yourselves by denying any sort of unleashing of U.K. nationalism, equally, it is open to me to reflect on how I see it on the context of this and other threads.
So I’ll leave the thread hence to others and as I say, can reflect on things overall myself over the next few days.
[Post edited 17 Mar 2021 13:08]
I would just say I don’t think questioning AZ is a bad thing - any issues should be investigated in full. The suspension is the question mark when both the WHO and EMA have said not to. And that’s why it feels political towards AZ and makes the threat to sue over deliveries whilst at the same time suspending the vaccine seem confusing at the very least; either the vaccines are wanted and will be used or not.
If the AZ vaccines were being delivered at the required pace would EU countries be so willing to suspend it or would they be following WHO/EMA guidance? We’ll never know for sure.
Macron's starting to lose it now on 13:11 - Mar 17 by pointofblue
I would just say I don’t think questioning AZ is a bad thing - any issues should be investigated in full. The suspension is the question mark when both the WHO and EMA have said not to. And that’s why it feels political towards AZ and makes the threat to sue over deliveries whilst at the same time suspending the vaccine seem confusing at the very least; either the vaccines are wanted and will be used or not.
If the AZ vaccines were being delivered at the required pace would EU countries be so willing to suspend it or would they be following WHO/EMA guidance? We’ll never know for sure.
A politically impartial view from across the pond.
Macron's starting to lose it now on 13:03 - Mar 17 by Moriarty
It’s all there, right from the start.
Perception is reality I guess and what I’ve perceived, not just in this thread, and not just from some of your posts, is an unleashing of U.K. nationalism against anything pro EU or which questions AZ, in this thread their supply issues, and the decision of sovereign govts to take a certain course. The discourse from you was never to examine that, it was simply to condemn and entertain nothing else but it being a political snipe by certain states, including my own.
As has been conveniently ignored, the Irish govt have made it clear their view is this is temporary and they believe AZ jab is safe. The supply failures however are not temporary and affect many people in this country, even some known to me. I’ve said that above.
Pointofblue’s question is a good and fair question - should we drive on as the U.K. is doing, or suspend temporarily. But that discourse is not what is driving the pile on here. It’s out and out vaccine nationalism - an unwillingness to entertain any question about AZ/AZ supply failures as any other than political envy or malice.
So in as much as you and others might try and comfort yourselves by denying any sort of unleashing of U.K. nationalism, equally, it is open to me to reflect on how I see it on the context of this and other threads.
So I’ll leave the thread hence to others and as I say, can reflect on things overall myself over the next few days.
[Post edited 17 Mar 2021 13:08]
Sorry Moriarty, but I am going to have to say it again you are chucking the term 'vaccine nationalism' around carelessly.
To say that 'the pile on' is 'out and out nationalism' is simply not true. I, and most other posters on here, simply think that the approach of those governments who are suspending vaccinations is wrong.
On another point, you state that the suspension is temporary. That is true, but the effect on vaccine hesitancy that results from it will be much longer lasting.
From my point of view suspending the vaccinations counter-productively over cautious.
Macron's starting to lose it now on 14:12 - Mar 17 by itfcjoe
That will be lapped up by Boris, how are the EU getting this so wrong?
Their vaccination roll out has been a disaster and they are just lashing out now
Haven't the decisions to suspend the vaccines been made by the member states, not the EU? The EU have struggled in some areas (e.g. procurement) but they can't be held to account for the actions of the states.
This from von der Leyen seems bit nuts though. It's only a speculative hint to try and put some pressure on, but it's more likely to start a vaccine war than solve a supply problem.
Macron's starting to lose it now on 14:23 - Mar 17 by Swansea_Blue
Haven't the decisions to suspend the vaccines been made by the member states, not the EU? The EU have struggled in some areas (e.g. procurement) but they can't be held to account for the actions of the states.
This from von der Leyen seems bit nuts though. It's only a speculative hint to try and put some pressure on, but it's more likely to start a vaccine war than solve a supply problem.
From the very start though the 2 biggest hitters in the EU have seen fit to play out this faux war with regards to AZ in Germany and France, and untold damage has been done - as evidenced by their roll out programmes and cases being on the rise there.
It's been a massive mistake, and when you see the reputational damage done to the AZ vaccine in those 2 countries (Germany saying it's not effective for over 65s, and France and Macron generally talking it down) it is quite literally causing deaths.
This from van Der Leyen the latest attempt at a shot across the bows of the UK, and seems so irresponsible
Macron's starting to lose it now on 14:27 - Mar 17 by itfcjoe
From the very start though the 2 biggest hitters in the EU have seen fit to play out this faux war with regards to AZ in Germany and France, and untold damage has been done - as evidenced by their roll out programmes and cases being on the rise there.
It's been a massive mistake, and when you see the reputational damage done to the AZ vaccine in those 2 countries (Germany saying it's not effective for over 65s, and France and Macron generally talking it down) it is quite literally causing deaths.
This from van Der Leyen the latest attempt at a shot across the bows of the UK, and seems so irresponsible
I believe that Macron described the AZ vaccine as only being 'quasi-effective' in the over 65s.
I cannot imagine what his motivation for that was, but casting that sort of doubt on the vaccine with such an unsubstantiated, and now completely refuted, claim was recklessly dangerous given that people will die for the want of a vaccine, and even for want of a vaccine given in time.
It was all the more dangerous given that there is already a relatively high level of hesitancy in France.
Macron's starting to lose it now on 11:48 - Mar 17 by giant_stow
The only nationalism I'm seeing is of the defensive variety: "my country right or wrong", displayed by Moriarty.
I guess this is confusing for remainers like me too - we in the Uk are used to being the obstructionist, Thatcherite, laggard bad guys, but we need to go with facts.
[Post edited 17 Mar 2021 11:53]
I like Moriarty. He's a decent and thoughtful poster. However, I've noticed recently that he is feeling that a lot of replies to him carry an anti Irish sentiment. Just last week he said the same about a post from Ryorry when discussing the Gordon Elliot dead horse incident. She didn't know Moriarty was Irish and nor did she mention Ireland in her post.
Moriarty can speak for himself, but perhaps he has been on the end of the usual Irish digs that used to be an accepted part of language but thankfully no longer are?
I haven't seen anti Irish sentiment in this thread. There has been criticism of the Irish government, along with a number of other European governments. But criticism of foreign political leaders and their decisions arent a criticism of the citizens of that country.
Eire_Blue is an Irish poster. He is a vocal critic of the British government, our leaders and the decisions those leaders make. I don't take offence of his views carrying an anti British sentiment.
Macron's starting to lose it now on 14:27 - Mar 17 by itfcjoe
From the very start though the 2 biggest hitters in the EU have seen fit to play out this faux war with regards to AZ in Germany and France, and untold damage has been done - as evidenced by their roll out programmes and cases being on the rise there.
It's been a massive mistake, and when you see the reputational damage done to the AZ vaccine in those 2 countries (Germany saying it's not effective for over 65s, and France and Macron generally talking it down) it is quite literally causing deaths.
This from van Der Leyen the latest attempt at a shot across the bows of the UK, and seems so irresponsible
I agree. it's irresponsible and hits progress. I just think we need to distinguish between EU actions and member state actions, as the 2 are getting conflated. France and Germany's positions do not reflect EU policy (or the EMA's, who have highlighted that there's no science basis to the pause in AZ vaccinations).
There have been several states who have gone against EU wishes by side stepping the EU's procurement scheme afterall, including Germany (and maybe France, I can't remember).
Macron's starting to lose it now on 14:38 - Mar 17 by GlasgowBlue
I like Moriarty. He's a decent and thoughtful poster. However, I've noticed recently that he is feeling that a lot of replies to him carry an anti Irish sentiment. Just last week he said the same about a post from Ryorry when discussing the Gordon Elliot dead horse incident. She didn't know Moriarty was Irish and nor did she mention Ireland in her post.
Moriarty can speak for himself, but perhaps he has been on the end of the usual Irish digs that used to be an accepted part of language but thankfully no longer are?
I haven't seen anti Irish sentiment in this thread. There has been criticism of the Irish government, along with a number of other European governments. But criticism of foreign political leaders and their decisions arent a criticism of the citizens of that country.
Eire_Blue is an Irish poster. He is a vocal critic of the British government, our leaders and the decisions those leaders make. I don't take offence of his views carrying an anti British sentiment.
Yeah, I think you're right and Moriarty, if you're reading, i mean no slur against the Irish people.
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
Macron's starting to lose it now on 14:43 - Mar 17 by Swansea_Blue
I agree. it's irresponsible and hits progress. I just think we need to distinguish between EU actions and member state actions, as the 2 are getting conflated. France and Germany's positions do not reflect EU policy (or the EMA's, who have highlighted that there's no science basis to the pause in AZ vaccinations).
There have been several states who have gone against EU wishes by side stepping the EU's procurement scheme afterall, including Germany (and maybe France, I can't remember).
You're right to make the distinction but the 15 or so countries which have suspended are in effect acting as an informal group, so its lazy if understandable conflating. I believe that its only actually the Norwegians and Germans who have picked up on this data* - everyone else is following suit without their own medical investigations.
*Maybe the odd other that I haven't read about, but I think the point they're acting together is fair.
[Post edited 17 Mar 2021 14:48]
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
Macron's starting to lose it now on 14:45 - Mar 17 by giant_stow
Yeah, I think you're right and Moriarty, if you're reading, i mean no slur against the Irish people.
Likewise, I haven't said anything remotely derogatory about the Irish in this thread, I've apologised for any offence caused, yet I'm still waiting to see what crass comment I'm supposed to have made.
Macron's starting to lose it now on 14:38 - Mar 17 by GlasgowBlue
I like Moriarty. He's a decent and thoughtful poster. However, I've noticed recently that he is feeling that a lot of replies to him carry an anti Irish sentiment. Just last week he said the same about a post from Ryorry when discussing the Gordon Elliot dead horse incident. She didn't know Moriarty was Irish and nor did she mention Ireland in her post.
Moriarty can speak for himself, but perhaps he has been on the end of the usual Irish digs that used to be an accepted part of language but thankfully no longer are?
I haven't seen anti Irish sentiment in this thread. There has been criticism of the Irish government, along with a number of other European governments. But criticism of foreign political leaders and their decisions arent a criticism of the citizens of that country.
Eire_Blue is an Irish poster. He is a vocal critic of the British government, our leaders and the decisions those leaders make. I don't take offence of his views carrying an anti British sentiment.
Firstly, thanks for your comments.
To offer some context, since Brexit, I’ve been met with posts saying Ireland is not in the EU, Ireland can’t make her own decisions, Ireland is Merkel’s bitch, Ireland is Macron’s bitch, I’ve been challenged to “go on defend your country” and seen those posters defended as decent posters. None of those were from Hype btw. That’s just some (not all) of the context to the lie of the land.
With regard to Ryorry, without wishing to do her any injustice, as I recall it, I took issue with a suggestion that the British racing board had authority in Irish matters, and when I pointed that out, I was told I had brought nationality into it and her input ended. I’ve nothing against her btw.
When I advocated for Dyer, one poster likened me to a brexiteer.
Here, the charge has been made that Ireland’s temporary decision to suspend, and to raise issues with AZ concerning their supply failure is purely political. I know that not to be true. There are inferences I draw when I’m told others know best about what is going on in my own country. The charge of political motivation stood resolute, despite it being completely untrue.
I could offer more examples of things I’ve felt a bit uncomfortable with.
Equally there are other posters and threads I quite like.
fka omuircheartaigh
2
Macron's starting to lose it now on 21:39 - Mar 17 with 1483 views
Macron's starting to lose it now on 14:47 - Mar 17 by giant_stow
You're right to make the distinction but the 15 or so countries which have suspended are in effect acting as an informal group, so its lazy if understandable conflating. I believe that its only actually the Norwegians and Germans who have picked up on this data* - everyone else is following suit without their own medical investigations.
*Maybe the odd other that I haven't read about, but I think the point they're acting together is fair.
[Post edited 17 Mar 2021 14:48]
It's still got nothing to do with official EU policy. Basically countries are paranoid and covering their arses in case there was something in the blood clot claims. It seems there's no conclusive evidence of problem and now the temporary pauses in vaccinations will be lifted, starting as early as tomorrow.
It's not the political issue a lot of our media would like it to be. Give it another week and I suspect we'll be back to business as usual with most of the temporary bans lifted.
(This reminds me of the political games people were playing over vaccine rates in the UK. England got off to a fast start and within the first 2-3 weeks people were using that as a stick to beat the non-Tory devolved governments. That didn't last long. Wales and Scotland recently have both been in top spot for the best roll out of vaccines (not that that matters either). Nobody's prepared to give things time or tries to understand the stats. It's all nonsense and pointless political point scoring: a cancer in our society as we don't have consensus politics, only winner takes all).
Macron's starting to lose it now on 17:06 - Mar 17 by Moriarty
Firstly, thanks for your comments.
To offer some context, since Brexit, I’ve been met with posts saying Ireland is not in the EU, Ireland can’t make her own decisions, Ireland is Merkel’s bitch, Ireland is Macron’s bitch, I’ve been challenged to “go on defend your country” and seen those posters defended as decent posters. None of those were from Hype btw. That’s just some (not all) of the context to the lie of the land.
With regard to Ryorry, without wishing to do her any injustice, as I recall it, I took issue with a suggestion that the British racing board had authority in Irish matters, and when I pointed that out, I was told I had brought nationality into it and her input ended. I’ve nothing against her btw.
When I advocated for Dyer, one poster likened me to a brexiteer.
Here, the charge has been made that Ireland’s temporary decision to suspend, and to raise issues with AZ concerning their supply failure is purely political. I know that not to be true. There are inferences I draw when I’m told others know best about what is going on in my own country. The charge of political motivation stood resolute, despite it being completely untrue.
I could offer more examples of things I’ve felt a bit uncomfortable with.
Equally there are other posters and threads I quite like.
I wish you could make your mind up whether to be Merkel’s bitch or Macron’s bitch. Less potato picking, more decisions!
I think this is an interesting article from a third party and worthy of a read.
However fervent an admirer of the EU people in and out of it are, there can’t be many that think they’ve made anything but a dogs dinner of this. They have tried ever since they finally got around to approving vaccines to paint AZ and the U.K. as the bogeymen to cover their failures in various ways.
I’ve no doubt if the EMA again approves the vaccine again, the EU will double down on threatening the U.K. by withholding Pfizer supply. They know 10m are needed for second doses. While they thrash about like this, less people will be vaccinated and more people will continue to die unnecessarily. As JVT said, vaccines aren’t much use in the fridge.
I take it Italy has now exported those 250k doses held back from Australia? They are not using them, so I presume they’re in transit.
[Post edited 17 Mar 2021 22:37]
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Macron's starting to lose it now on 09:18 - Mar 18 with 1338 views
Nice to get a proper non-politicised view of what’s going on. From a scientific and public health perspective (not least, combating long-term anti-vaxx issues) it’s clearly a far from straightforward situation.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Macron's starting to lose it now on 09:52 - Mar 18 with 1298 views
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