| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction 13:57 - Mar 22 with 3131 views | unstableblue |
.. and other such myths??
I have a small group of friends who have been in a bit of an echo chamber together and have gone very extreme in their views: 'the harmless virus', government control is out of control, the whole Covid-19 reaction is a farce, genuinely as much risk as typical winter flu, BBC are the worst and government controlled, masks invade civil liberties.
I should add these are very bright people, who claim much research, but they are going very 'gammon', consuming certain media channels, 'thought' leaders, and its now causing rifts with other friends. I've avoided it, but am wondering.
Yes I think the deaths have been overstated; and yes the damage to the economy is a VERY significant risk as compared to the impact of the virus; the wait list and deferred treatment is a VERY big concern....
BUt the position this group take seems just wrong. I go to reputable news outlets, and I get this?:
https://www.ft.com/video/0cd6f9f9-664e-40f9-bad4-dde59d7c746c
What are your views on Covid? do you have friends similarly extreme? are they lost and not worth continuing with? get them back to Portman Road so they've got something else to get worked up about? |  |
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| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 15:52 - Mar 22 with 620 views | Herbivore |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 15:48 - Mar 22 by footers |
It all stems from a need to create meaning where there is none in the world, don't you think? That's what it boils down to for me, whether it's conspiracies, religion, monarchy, aliens or what have you: there's always something bigger than the individual who dictates what happens in simple terms, whereas in reality the world has very little direction or meaning to it. Which is probably quite unsettling for us apes, really. |
Whoah there, don't go lumping aliens in with all the rest of that mumbo jumbo. Don't tell me you believe the Pyramids could have been knocked up by humans thousands of years ago with the technology they had! Never had you down as one of the sheeple. |  |
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| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 15:53 - Mar 22 with 622 views | BlueBadger |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 14:30 - Mar 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
They don't sound like very bright people.
Honestly, why would governments make this up? It's a worldwide thing - when have the governments of the world EVER agreed on something?
And what do you mean the deaths are overstated? Why would they be (surely if anything the govt. would UNDERstate them to look like they're doing a better job)?
And then you see the hell the NHS staff are going through in the various reports on the wards. Are these all making it up too?
What is this 'research' your mates are claiming? It's a bit vague. 'Research' to them could be watching David Ike videos.
Anyone doubting this virus, and the severity of it, is a moron IMO. And an offensive one at that. Thankfully I don't have any friends like that. I understand people love being controversial, and conspiracy theories can be exciting, but when it comes to belittling the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, it's a fecking disgrace. |
Interesting how all the really stupid views UB comes out with are those of his 'mates'. |  |
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| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 15:54 - Mar 22 with 609 views | footers |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 15:52 - Mar 22 by Herbivore |
Whoah there, don't go lumping aliens in with all the rest of that mumbo jumbo. Don't tell me you believe the Pyramids could have been knocked up by humans thousands of years ago with the technology they had! Never had you down as one of the sheeple. |
The pyramids, no. Atlantis on the other hand... |  |
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| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:00 - Mar 22 with 597 views | bluelagos |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 15:48 - Mar 22 by StokieBlue |
"Conspiracy Theories" is a generalised term.
I am talking around the specific nonsense around C19 which might have been plausible to some in the first few months of the pandemic but more than a year later all the theories are clearly nonsense given the deaths and sadness that has happened.
There are countless resources out there which they could read which would counter every point they believe to be true but they chose not to. I know this is due to confirmation bias and the insidious nature of conspiracy theories but when do we stop trying to make excuses for them and call out what is hugely offensive nonsense to the millions who have lost family and friends?
The C19 conspiracy theories are far from harmless, we aren't talking the grassy knoll here.
SB |
"when do we stop trying to make excuses"
I am doing nothing of the sort Stokie, I am trying to understand some of the underlying issues that lead to people going down that route. To challenge their thinking you need to try and understand their thinking.
Anyhow - don't want to fall out - we have a 95% common position on this, the CV deniers are wrong and should be challenged over that. |  |
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| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:02 - Mar 22 with 591 views | Herbivore |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:00 - Mar 22 by bluelagos |
"when do we stop trying to make excuses"
I am doing nothing of the sort Stokie, I am trying to understand some of the underlying issues that lead to people going down that route. To challenge their thinking you need to try and understand their thinking.
Anyhow - don't want to fall out - we have a 95% common position on this, the CV deniers are wrong and should be challenged over that. |
Have you seen the flat earther documentary on Netflix? I genuinely think there's no real hope when it comes to conspiracy theorists. Our best bet is to sterilise them and hope their kind die out within a generation | |
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| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:05 - Mar 22 with 581 views | StokieBlue |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:00 - Mar 22 by bluelagos |
"when do we stop trying to make excuses"
I am doing nothing of the sort Stokie, I am trying to understand some of the underlying issues that lead to people going down that route. To challenge their thinking you need to try and understand their thinking.
Anyhow - don't want to fall out - we have a 95% common position on this, the CV deniers are wrong and should be challenged over that. |
I do agree to some extent, however decades have been spent trying to understand their view and nothing has changed. Usually it doesn't matter, the vast majority of conspiracy theories are harmless to anyone except the individual themselves. This isn't the case for C19 conspiracy theories.
How about we look at it this way. You were rightly very vocal on issues around how woman are treated last week but I am not sure your approach to that was to try and understand the position of the perpetrators and then change their minds. You rightly took a zero tolerance approach which would include not taking any excuses.
Given C19 conspiracies cost lives as well, why isn't the same approach feasible here?
We aren't going to fall out about it, it's a friendly debate :).
SB |  | | |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:07 - Mar 22 with 577 views | StokieBlue |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:02 - Mar 22 by Herbivore |
Have you seen the flat earther documentary on Netflix? I genuinely think there's no real hope when it comes to conspiracy theorists. Our best bet is to sterilise them and hope their kind die out within a generation |
"Behind The Curve".
Well worth a watch to see the level of self-delusion that we are dealing with. The experiments are especially interesting....
SB | | | |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:07 - Mar 22 with 576 views | bluelagos |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:02 - Mar 22 by Herbivore |
Have you seen the flat earther documentary on Netflix? I genuinely think there's no real hope when it comes to conspiracy theorists. Our best bet is to sterilise them and hope their kind die out within a generation |
Have always wanted to go up in hot air balloon just to see the earth's curvature, not cos I don't accept it but would be kind of cool to see it with your own eyes :-) | |
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| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:08 - Mar 22 with 571 views | bluelagos |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:05 - Mar 22 by StokieBlue |
I do agree to some extent, however decades have been spent trying to understand their view and nothing has changed. Usually it doesn't matter, the vast majority of conspiracy theories are harmless to anyone except the individual themselves. This isn't the case for C19 conspiracy theories.
How about we look at it this way. You were rightly very vocal on issues around how woman are treated last week but I am not sure your approach to that was to try and understand the position of the perpetrators and then change their minds. You rightly took a zero tolerance approach which would include not taking any excuses.
Given C19 conspiracies cost lives as well, why isn't the same approach feasible here?
We aren't going to fall out about it, it's a friendly debate :).
SB |
Am going to reflect on that - and come back to you. Seems like a reasonable point :-) | |
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| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:09 - Mar 22 with 567 views | Herbivore |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:07 - Mar 22 by StokieBlue |
"Behind The Curve".
Well worth a watch to see the level of self-delusion that we are dealing with. The experiments are especially interesting....
SB |
That's the one. When they refuse to even believe their own evidence that they have come up with through their own endeavours I just don't know what more you can do to convince them. | |
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| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:12 - Mar 22 with 554 views | bluelagos |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:09 - Mar 22 by Herbivore |
That's the one. When they refuse to even believe their own evidence that they have come up with through their own endeavours I just don't know what more you can do to convince them. |
Put them in a balloon. The pics of the earth's curvature - how can you deny it if you can see it with your own eyes? | |
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| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:13 - Mar 22 with 554 views | J2BLUE |
The harmless virus. Yea they sound really bright. |  |
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| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:16 - Mar 22 with 541 views | StokieBlue |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:12 - Mar 22 by bluelagos |
Put them in a balloon. The pics of the earth's curvature - how can you deny it if you can see it with your own eyes? |
You'll be surprised, you should watch it, probably with a beer.
SB | | | |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:17 - Mar 22 with 536 views | bluelagos |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:16 - Mar 22 by StokieBlue |
You'll be surprised, you should watch it, probably with a beer.
SB |
Is it a funny or a depressing watch? | |
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| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:18 - Mar 22 with 533 views | StokieBlue |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:17 - Mar 22 by bluelagos |
Is it a funny or a depressing watch? |
Been a while since I watched it but from memory I would say both.
SB | | | |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:27 - Mar 22 with 524 views | Herbivore |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:12 - Mar 22 by bluelagos |
Put them in a balloon. The pics of the earth's curvature - how can you deny it if you can see it with your own eyes? |
Watch it and then come back to me on that one. | |
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| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:28 - Mar 22 with 526 views | unstableblue |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 15:35 - Mar 22 by footers |
You can judge a man by the company he keeps. |
Thanks a lot!
They're actually a group of friends from old, who I have slowly moved away from, as to be honest they've become quite intense in general. Some of them have valid reasons for that change, personal issues.
The majority of my mutual friends have disconnected completely from them already.
Whilst this thread, has turned into a bit of an unstable slate, rather what I was intending, which was to see if there were any people who could justify this extreme position, and whether they had any similar acquaintances. It has to be honest this post has made me quite angry about their position.
Time to come off those Whatsapp groups me thinks.
Thanks again for all the passionate points of view. | |
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| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:30 - Mar 22 with 520 views | Herbivore |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:28 - Mar 22 by unstableblue |
Thanks a lot!
They're actually a group of friends from old, who I have slowly moved away from, as to be honest they've become quite intense in general. Some of them have valid reasons for that change, personal issues.
The majority of my mutual friends have disconnected completely from them already.
Whilst this thread, has turned into a bit of an unstable slate, rather what I was intending, which was to see if there were any people who could justify this extreme position, and whether they had any similar acquaintances. It has to be honest this post has made me quite angry about their position.
Time to come off those Whatsapp groups me thinks.
Thanks again for all the passionate points of view. |
We love you really. | |
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| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:31 - Mar 22 with 520 views | StokieBlue |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:28 - Mar 22 by unstableblue |
Thanks a lot!
They're actually a group of friends from old, who I have slowly moved away from, as to be honest they've become quite intense in general. Some of them have valid reasons for that change, personal issues.
The majority of my mutual friends have disconnected completely from them already.
Whilst this thread, has turned into a bit of an unstable slate, rather what I was intending, which was to see if there were any people who could justify this extreme position, and whether they had any similar acquaintances. It has to be honest this post has made me quite angry about their position.
Time to come off those Whatsapp groups me thinks.
Thanks again for all the passionate points of view. |
I think the issue was you started off complaining about their extreme positions and then posted your own extreme position.
"Yes I think the deaths have been overstated"
You don't seem to accept this is an extreme position though and haven't responded to any of the comments made to you about it.
SB | | | |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:40 - Mar 22 with 503 views | unstableblue |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 15:32 - Mar 22 by StokieBlue |
"I should add these are very bright people, who claim much research"
This is clearly not the case and I would suggest that you need to reappraise how you evaluation the intelligence of someone.
I'm actually considering your position in the "very bright people" bracket with this statement:
"Yes I think the deaths have been overstated"
I don't even know what that is supposed to mean but if anything the deaths globally have been hugely understated. If we had excess deaths figures for everywhere (India for instance) I think you'd see a far higher death toll attributed to Covid.
Research is useless if it's undertaken with an existing internal bias and from dubious sources.
SB |
See the link I shared:
https://www.ft.com/video/0cd6f9f9-664e-40f9-bad4-dde59d7c746c
Excellent insight.
'Very bright people' - one individual is Oxbridge, PHD and worked in data science of health!! which probably has been a factor in posting.
Really wish I hadn't posted now. | |
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| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:40 - Mar 22 with 498 views | unstableblue |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:30 - Mar 22 by Herbivore |
We love you really. |
Thanks Herbivore | |
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| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:43 - Mar 22 with 498 views | Churchman |
I suspect we all know people who think it’s a money making, control exercise hoax. A really good friend (who believes WTC was brought down by the CIA, Kennedy was shot by the same and the moon landings happened in Hollywood) who is great fun, bright if a bit mad suffers from bad asthma, bronchitis etc and is somebody who really needs vaccinating. I’ve told him if gets C-19 badly he will die. He has refused point blank. It’s all conspiracy according to him.
Er no it’s not. A couple of people my misses knows have died of it, a golf buddy lost his dad. He was in intensive care for ages and my mate couldn’t be there when he died. The mush living over the road was wheeled out on oxygen and survived. He’s a doctor and I’ll take his word on it over my mad mate.
Everything I’ve heard tells me this is something unlike anything* in my lifetime and it’s anything but a hoax. People that believe this are a danger to themselves and more important others. I can see vaccination passports coming in and I’m all for them. |  | | |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:44 - Mar 22 with 494 views | StokieBlue |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:40 - Mar 22 by unstableblue |
See the link I shared:
https://www.ft.com/video/0cd6f9f9-664e-40f9-bad4-dde59d7c746c
Excellent insight.
'Very bright people' - one individual is Oxbridge, PHD and worked in data science of health!! which probably has been a factor in posting.
Really wish I hadn't posted now. |
That's an appeal to authority fallacy.
Just because he went to Oxbridge and has previously worked in data science in health (which could mean anything) it doesn't mean he has any idea about pandemics.
In fact the evidence would suggest has has absolutely no idea at all.
SB | | | |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:51 - Mar 22 with 484 views | BlueBadger |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:28 - Mar 22 by unstableblue |
Thanks a lot!
They're actually a group of friends from old, who I have slowly moved away from, as to be honest they've become quite intense in general. Some of them have valid reasons for that change, personal issues.
The majority of my mutual friends have disconnected completely from them already.
Whilst this thread, has turned into a bit of an unstable slate, rather what I was intending, which was to see if there were any people who could justify this extreme position, and whether they had any similar acquaintances. It has to be honest this post has made me quite angry about their position.
Time to come off those Whatsapp groups me thinks.
Thanks again for all the passionate points of view. |
So, what about your position were you stated 'Yes I think the deaths have been overstated'? | |
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| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:52 - Mar 22 with 477 views | unstableblue |
| What's the TWTD thoughts on mask, lock-down and Covid being an over reaction on 16:31 - Mar 22 by StokieBlue |
I think the issue was you started off complaining about their extreme positions and then posted your own extreme position.
"Yes I think the deaths have been overstated"
You don't seem to accept this is an extreme position though and haven't responded to any of the comments made to you about it.
SB |
Apologies - I was just referring to potential miss classification up or down of CV cases. Which I thought had some validity. See below.
Are the extra deaths all related to Covid-19, or are some of them the result of increases in mortality for other reasons?
During the first wave of the pandemic last Spring, there was a gap between the estimated extra deaths and the number of deaths where Covid-19 was mentioned on the death certificate, with Covid accounting for approximately three-quarters of the number of extra deaths.
The difference could reflect a number of different factors — both clinical and in the reporting.
The range of clinical presentations of Covid-19 is extremely varied, and it may not be apparent that the patient had the virus, particularly for older people who can present with different symptoms.
For patients who haven’t been tested, and more particularly if the patient has tested negatively for the coronavirus, doctors may have been reluctant to include the diagnosis on the death certificate, even though the clinical pattern suggests that Covid is a factor.
In terms of reporting, the ONS data includes any death where Covid-19 is mentioned on the death certificate — either directly, as an underlying cause or as a contributory cause. However, the guidance states that only illnesses that contributed to the death should be listed.
For patients who were already close to the end of their life, doctors may judge that the Covid-19 infection was not a significant factor. Even though the patient died with the disease, they didn’t die from it.
As the pandemic has progressed, changes in coding has closed the gap between deaths from Covid-19 and excess deaths, and towards the end of 2020 non-Covid deaths were below the five-year average. The understanding of how the disease affects different groups of patients has increased, and clinicians have much more experience in identifying and treating the disease. There is also more capacity to test patients for Covid-19, so it is likely to be identified at an earlier stage of their illness. In addition, rates of flu and other usual winter illnesses have been lower than in previous years, as a result of lockdown measures.
However, it remains the case that some of the extra deaths may occur as a result of people not seeking help for other illnesses, or because the NHS stopped planned treatment — which includes care for life-threatening conditions such as cancer, as well as routine check-ups.
In addition, the lockdown response to the pandemic will have affected the risk of death from other causes — from road traffic accidents through to falls and injuries, drug and alcohol related deaths, and suicide. The impact of these wider changes won’t be clear for some time. | |
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