| So in the past 48 hours 16:48 - Mar 31 with 7389 views | bluelagos |
We've been told that structural racism isn't a problem in the UK, that the Met police's refusal to facilitate a safe vigil and subsequently arresting women at a vigil is hunky dory and nothing at all to do with the inappropriate pressure from the Home Secretary, and Boris having an affair with a woman whilst simultaneously directing public money her way is "acting with honesty and integrity".
What next? |  |
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| So in the past 48 hours on 12:35 - Apr 1 with 1605 views | Swansea_Blue |
| So in the past 48 hours on 20:00 - Mar 31 by Herbivore |
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What a hussy. She sounds just like Johnson. |  |
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| So in the past 48 hours on 12:42 - Apr 1 with 1595 views | Herbivore |
| So in the past 48 hours on 12:11 - Apr 1 by Darth_Koont |
Indeed. And with a government who are going to be campaigning around culture and dismissing any opposition on that basis plus letting loose their culture warriors in the media and on social media, hey presto here’s a report that turns structural racism into an issue of individuals and cultures.
Deeply abhorrent, disingenuous and dangerous stuff. |
The state of someone down arrowing this. Blimey. |  |
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| So in the past 48 hours on 12:45 - Apr 1 with 1585 views | footers |
| So in the past 48 hours on 12:42 - Apr 1 by Herbivore |
The state of someone down arrowing this. Blimey. |
Oh what a surprise. |  |
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| So in the past 48 hours on 12:49 - Apr 1 with 1570 views | lowhouseblue |
| So in the past 48 hours on 12:42 - Apr 1 by Herbivore |
The state of someone down arrowing this. Blimey. |
because rather than engaging with the content of the report the poster is just doing the equivalent of calling it names. it's school playground stuff. blimey. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| So in the past 48 hours on 13:08 - Apr 1 with 1555 views | Darth_Koont |
| So in the past 48 hours on 12:49 - Apr 1 by lowhouseblue |
because rather than engaging with the content of the report the poster is just doing the equivalent of calling it names. it's school playground stuff. blimey. |
Ahh, it’s Spiked Online himself. |  |
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| So in the past 48 hours on 13:37 - Apr 1 with 1513 views | Herbivore |
| So in the past 48 hours on 13:08 - Apr 1 by Darth_Koont |
Ahh, it’s Spiked Online himself. |
Their one reader. | |
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| So in the past 48 hours on 21:47 - Apr 1 with 1467 views | BlueBadger |
| So in the past 48 hours on 12:49 - Apr 1 by lowhouseblue |
because rather than engaging with the content of the report the poster is just doing the equivalent of calling it names. it's school playground stuff. blimey. |
Oh Lowie, you've gone Full Paz. Never go Full Paz. |  |
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| So in the past 48 hours on 21:59 - Apr 1 with 1453 views | thegloryyears |
| So in the past 48 hours on 22:34 - Mar 31 by BlueBadger |
In all fairness, the last few years has suggested that around 52% of the country are idiots. |
oh my goodness get over yourself....maybe 52% of the population knew exactly what they were doing as proven by the Eurozone going to pop and the UK moving upwards into sunny vaccinated uplands.... |  | | |
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| So in the past 48 hours on 22:10 - Apr 1 with 1444 views | jeera |
| So in the past 48 hours on 21:59 - Apr 1 by thegloryyears |
oh my goodness get over yourself....maybe 52% of the population knew exactly what they were doing as proven by the Eurozone going to pop and the UK moving upwards into sunny vaccinated uplands.... |
You haven't read a word on the issues surrounding trade have you?
Not a single word.
Do shut up and leave those who have a clue to be as irritated as they have every right to be. [Post edited 1 Apr 2021 22:12]
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| So in the past 48 hours on 00:51 - Apr 2 with 1399 views | syntaxerror |
| So in the past 48 hours on 21:59 - Apr 1 by thegloryyears |
oh my goodness get over yourself....maybe 52% of the population knew exactly what they were doing as proven by the Eurozone going to pop and the UK moving upwards into sunny vaccinated uplands.... |
For years Brexiteers have been desperate to find something to prove their xenophobia was justified. And failed week on week, month on month. And now, here comes vaccines.
By last count, the UK had acquired over 300million vaccines. Enough to vaccinate the entire country almost 5 times over.
But if someone asks us to share, they are greedy! [Post edited 2 Apr 2021 0:52]
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| So in the past 48 hours on 10:11 - Apr 2 with 1333 views | lowhouseblue |
| So in the past 48 hours on 13:08 - Apr 1 by Darth_Koont |
Ahh, it’s Spiked Online himself. |
so you mention spiked. i therefore looked and they're actually discussing the content of the report rather than shouting abuse. for example:
"The Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities, headed by Tony Sewell, does something that feels almost revolutionary in the midst of today’s misanthropic conviction that Britain is a racist hellhole. It tells the truth. The truth that children from ethnic-minority backgrounds are doing just as well as, or are outperforming, white kids in compulsory education. Children with Black Carribean heritage are the only ones doing worse than white kids. The success of minority groups in the education system has ‘transformed British society over the last 50 years into one offering far greater opportunities for all’, the review says. ... The review also points out that the pay gap between ethnic-minority workers and white-majority workers has shrunk dramatically, to just 2.3 per cent. For workers under the age of 30 there is barely any racial pay gap at all. Brilliant. That’s great progress. It also points to the explosion in diversity in law, medicine and other professions. It isn’t all a bed of roses, of course. No one benefits from Panglossianism. There is still overt racism, especially in the cesspit areas of the internet, the review says, and some communities still feel the burden of ‘historic racism’, which could potentially hold them back. But we can work on these problems, now that they’ve been properly identified and named."
which bit do you disagree with? what evidence from the report do you challenge? for example, do you deny that ethnic minority workers are now at least proportionally represented in the high status, high pay professions? what are your views on the 24 recommendations that the report offers to challenge continuing racism? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| So in the past 48 hours on 10:19 - Apr 2 with 1331 views | Darth_Koont |
| So in the past 48 hours on 10:11 - Apr 2 by lowhouseblue |
so you mention spiked. i therefore looked and they're actually discussing the content of the report rather than shouting abuse. for example:
"The Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities, headed by Tony Sewell, does something that feels almost revolutionary in the midst of today’s misanthropic conviction that Britain is a racist hellhole. It tells the truth. The truth that children from ethnic-minority backgrounds are doing just as well as, or are outperforming, white kids in compulsory education. Children with Black Carribean heritage are the only ones doing worse than white kids. The success of minority groups in the education system has ‘transformed British society over the last 50 years into one offering far greater opportunities for all’, the review says. ... The review also points out that the pay gap between ethnic-minority workers and white-majority workers has shrunk dramatically, to just 2.3 per cent. For workers under the age of 30 there is barely any racial pay gap at all. Brilliant. That’s great progress. It also points to the explosion in diversity in law, medicine and other professions. It isn’t all a bed of roses, of course. No one benefits from Panglossianism. There is still overt racism, especially in the cesspit areas of the internet, the review says, and some communities still feel the burden of ‘historic racism’, which could potentially hold them back. But we can work on these problems, now that they’ve been properly identified and named."
which bit do you disagree with? what evidence from the report do you challenge? for example, do you deny that ethnic minority workers are now at least proportionally represented in the high status, high pay professions? what are your views on the 24 recommendations that the report offers to challenge continuing racism? |
Gmpf.
Cherry-picking season is very early this year. | |
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| So in the past 48 hours on 10:30 - Apr 2 with 1303 views | lowhouseblue |
| So in the past 48 hours on 10:19 - Apr 2 by Darth_Koont |
Gmpf.
Cherry-picking season is very early this year. |
you can't do it can you? you can't actually engage in discussion. you haven't read the report, you have no idea what the 24 recommendations are. your response is just tribal and abusive based on what you've seen someone else tweet. absolutely pathetic.
the report shows evidence that in socio-economic terms uk ethnic minority community is not significantly different from the white community. and within both groups the main determinants of economic variation are class, occupation and geography etc. the report shows that racism remains a real issue in the uk, hence the 24 recommendations, but shows that it is not key in determining socio-economic advantage or disadvantage.
go on, challenge yourself - read the report. explain why those conclusions are wrong. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| So in the past 48 hours on 10:51 - Apr 2 with 1293 views | Darth_Koont |
| So in the past 48 hours on 10:30 - Apr 2 by lowhouseblue |
you can't do it can you? you can't actually engage in discussion. you haven't read the report, you have no idea what the 24 recommendations are. your response is just tribal and abusive based on what you've seen someone else tweet. absolutely pathetic.
the report shows evidence that in socio-economic terms uk ethnic minority community is not significantly different from the white community. and within both groups the main determinants of economic variation are class, occupation and geography etc. the report shows that racism remains a real issue in the uk, hence the 24 recommendations, but shows that it is not key in determining socio-economic advantage or disadvantage.
go on, challenge yourself - read the report. explain why those conclusions are wrong. |
Haha! Loving the self-righteous indignation when I don’t address the details.
I haven’t read the whole report, no. But I take on board what those who have studied structural racism say about it: that the report takes parts that present a certain narrative that isn’t reflected in reality.
Take the passage you quoted:
So attainment in COMPULSORY education and a standardised system is largely the same (when adjusted for other factors like socio-economic class of course and that’s one of the red flags). What about in further education?
Wages for the under 30s are largely the same. That’s because wages for the under 30s are uniformly squeezed. And with more minority representation in larger towns and cities where the jobs are then that’s not surprising that pay gaps are reduced overall. But what happens over 30 when the job market becomes more “selective” and gaps widen?
Of course, class, occupation and geography play a role – and here there are also massive structural imbalances. But you can tell any story about race and culture by picking the facts that support it, and this is what the report does for a government that’s determined to ignore the rights of minorities and continue to demonise them because that plays into their creeping ethno-nationalist populism.
Most trustworthy people are telling you that the report is flawed, yet here you are championing it along with Spiked’s approval. FFS. | |
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| So in the past 48 hours on 11:34 - Apr 2 with 1254 views | jeera |
| So in the past 48 hours on 13:37 - Apr 1 by Herbivore |
Their one reader. |
I wouldn't classify O'Neil as an authority on anything.
This is the man who called the investigation into Saville "a media-led witch hunt" in which "the victims would be better off keeping quiet."
The man is a piece of sh1t and it's impossible to see why anyone in their right mind would support his cause. | |
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| So in the past 48 hours on 11:36 - Apr 2 with 1248 views | Tonytown |
But Corbyn | | | |
| So in the past 48 hours on 11:46 - Apr 2 with 1245 views | eireblue |
| So in the past 48 hours on 10:11 - Apr 2 by lowhouseblue |
so you mention spiked. i therefore looked and they're actually discussing the content of the report rather than shouting abuse. for example:
"The Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities, headed by Tony Sewell, does something that feels almost revolutionary in the midst of today’s misanthropic conviction that Britain is a racist hellhole. It tells the truth. The truth that children from ethnic-minority backgrounds are doing just as well as, or are outperforming, white kids in compulsory education. Children with Black Carribean heritage are the only ones doing worse than white kids. The success of minority groups in the education system has ‘transformed British society over the last 50 years into one offering far greater opportunities for all’, the review says. ... The review also points out that the pay gap between ethnic-minority workers and white-majority workers has shrunk dramatically, to just 2.3 per cent. For workers under the age of 30 there is barely any racial pay gap at all. Brilliant. That’s great progress. It also points to the explosion in diversity in law, medicine and other professions. It isn’t all a bed of roses, of course. No one benefits from Panglossianism. There is still overt racism, especially in the cesspit areas of the internet, the review says, and some communities still feel the burden of ‘historic racism’, which could potentially hold them back. But we can work on these problems, now that they’ve been properly identified and named."
which bit do you disagree with? what evidence from the report do you challenge? for example, do you deny that ethnic minority workers are now at least proportionally represented in the high status, high pay professions? what are your views on the 24 recommendations that the report offers to challenge continuing racism? |
Through out the report, it does say things like, stuff needs to be looked into a bit more deeper.
But they reached conclusions that systemic/structural/institutional racism doesn’t exist.
On Newsnight, someone pointed out a very simple cultural difference between two different ethnic minorities that would explain a difference in outcome.
So an institution responded differently to a different ethnicity based on the cultural of that ethnicity.
I don’t see how the report writers can have a straight face and say, you need to look deeper, but the view we held before the report is the same as we held after the report.
On another point, that the report misses, again I am going to cite conversational stuff not data.
Children and young people are advised, not to be themselves in certain circumstances, by their parents. The children feel they have to modify their identity and manner, in some circumstances.
I am in a mixed race relationship, many of my adult friends say the same sort of thing.
This is not addressed in the report at all.
I would suggest some of the reaction to the report is a reaction to a condescending nature of the report.
That is, part of the BLM movement, isn’t the younger generation not knowing how bad it was back in the day, and not realising how much better it is for them now, which seems to be a main thrust of the report, but it is still the case that young people, although they are doing better, still have to repress their character and culture in-order to fit in, in many different circumstances.
The report doesn’t really seem to acknowledge that when thousands of people decide to march, it may not be a case that they simple don’t understand the pay gap is only 2.3%, and they really should be happier about stuff. [Post edited 2 Apr 2021 11:55]
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| So in the past 48 hours on 11:56 - Apr 2 with 1221 views | lowhouseblue |
| So in the past 48 hours on 10:51 - Apr 2 by Darth_Koont |
Haha! Loving the self-righteous indignation when I don’t address the details.
I haven’t read the whole report, no. But I take on board what those who have studied structural racism say about it: that the report takes parts that present a certain narrative that isn’t reflected in reality.
Take the passage you quoted:
So attainment in COMPULSORY education and a standardised system is largely the same (when adjusted for other factors like socio-economic class of course and that’s one of the red flags). What about in further education?
Wages for the under 30s are largely the same. That’s because wages for the under 30s are uniformly squeezed. And with more minority representation in larger towns and cities where the jobs are then that’s not surprising that pay gaps are reduced overall. But what happens over 30 when the job market becomes more “selective” and gaps widen?
Of course, class, occupation and geography play a role – and here there are also massive structural imbalances. But you can tell any story about race and culture by picking the facts that support it, and this is what the report does for a government that’s determined to ignore the rights of minorities and continue to demonise them because that plays into their creeping ethno-nationalist populism.
Most trustworthy people are telling you that the report is flawed, yet here you are championing it along with Spiked’s approval. FFS. |
so, your first point, (but read the section of the report on education - it is careful, nuanced and includes recommendations which you'd probably support), the report finds that "Data on entry rates to higher education showed that in 2020 White students were the least likely to go to university at 32.6%, followed by students from the Mixed (39.0%), Black (47.5%), Asian (53.1%) and Chinese (71.7%) ethnic groups". it then goes on to discuss different patterns between different minority ethnicity groups (a key element to the report and one of the most significant issues), the universities different groups go to and the outcomes they achieve. it identifies a particular issue with black students being more likely to go to lower tariff universities and looks at why that is the case.it includes recommendations on how to address that and how to improve carrier progression. vocational training is one of the reports main areas for recommendations looking at how apprenticeships in a particular can be promoted to minority ethnic groups.
but in terms of the headline there is nothing to suggest that race is the major determinant of opportunities in post-compulsory education - it is white students who have the lowest progression rate.
the decline in the race wage differential is much longer-term than that. but whatever the reason for it wage outcomes aren't not now significantly determined by race.
rather than just repeating stuff you've seen on twitter and editorialising it so it fits your group thinked worldview - READ THE REPORT | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| So in the past 48 hours on 12:02 - Apr 2 with 1216 views | lowhouseblue |
| So in the past 48 hours on 11:46 - Apr 2 by eireblue |
Through out the report, it does say things like, stuff needs to be looked into a bit more deeper.
But they reached conclusions that systemic/structural/institutional racism doesn’t exist.
On Newsnight, someone pointed out a very simple cultural difference between two different ethnic minorities that would explain a difference in outcome.
So an institution responded differently to a different ethnicity based on the cultural of that ethnicity.
I don’t see how the report writers can have a straight face and say, you need to look deeper, but the view we held before the report is the same as we held after the report.
On another point, that the report misses, again I am going to cite conversational stuff not data.
Children and young people are advised, not to be themselves in certain circumstances, by their parents. The children feel they have to modify their identity and manner, in some circumstances.
I am in a mixed race relationship, many of my adult friends say the same sort of thing.
This is not addressed in the report at all.
I would suggest some of the reaction to the report is a reaction to a condescending nature of the report.
That is, part of the BLM movement, isn’t the younger generation not knowing how bad it was back in the day, and not realising how much better it is for them now, which seems to be a main thrust of the report, but it is still the case that young people, although they are doing better, still have to repress their character and culture in-order to fit in, in many different circumstances.
The report doesn’t really seem to acknowledge that when thousands of people decide to march, it may not be a case that they simple don’t understand the pay gap is only 2.3%, and they really should be happier about stuff. [Post edited 2 Apr 2021 11:55]
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have you read the report? what about all the data that shows that key socio economic outcomes are no longer significantly explained by race? is that a sign of a deeply racist country or is it a good thing? the report doesn't suggest that racism isn't still a very serious problem - the examples you cite may well be good illustrations of that - but statistically race is no longer a major determinant of the outcomes people achieve. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| So in the past 48 hours on 12:09 - Apr 2 with 1206 views | Darth_Koont |
| So in the past 48 hours on 11:56 - Apr 2 by lowhouseblue |
so, your first point, (but read the section of the report on education - it is careful, nuanced and includes recommendations which you'd probably support), the report finds that "Data on entry rates to higher education showed that in 2020 White students were the least likely to go to university at 32.6%, followed by students from the Mixed (39.0%), Black (47.5%), Asian (53.1%) and Chinese (71.7%) ethnic groups". it then goes on to discuss different patterns between different minority ethnicity groups (a key element to the report and one of the most significant issues), the universities different groups go to and the outcomes they achieve. it identifies a particular issue with black students being more likely to go to lower tariff universities and looks at why that is the case.it includes recommendations on how to address that and how to improve carrier progression. vocational training is one of the reports main areas for recommendations looking at how apprenticeships in a particular can be promoted to minority ethnic groups.
but in terms of the headline there is nothing to suggest that race is the major determinant of opportunities in post-compulsory education - it is white students who have the lowest progression rate.
the decline in the race wage differential is much longer-term than that. but whatever the reason for it wage outcomes aren't not now significantly determined by race.
rather than just repeating stuff you've seen on twitter and editorialising it so it fits your group thinked worldview - READ THE REPORT |
The irony of you demanding I check the facts after all the nonsense you spouted about Labour antisemitism.
And both times you’re on the side of the politicised agenda going against people who actually study this stuff rather than trying to fit information to their pre-conceived ideas.
You never disappoint – and yet on another more serious level you always do. | |
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| So in the past 48 hours on 12:50 - Apr 2 with 1157 views | eireblue |
| So in the past 48 hours on 12:02 - Apr 2 by lowhouseblue |
have you read the report? what about all the data that shows that key socio economic outcomes are no longer significantly explained by race? is that a sign of a deeply racist country or is it a good thing? the report doesn't suggest that racism isn't still a very serious problem - the examples you cite may well be good illustrations of that - but statistically race is no longer a major determinant of the outcomes people achieve. |
So you gave me a down arrow, before asking and knowing the answers to your questions?
"deeply racist country vs good thing", are not the only two outcomes.
Yes I read most of the report.
Including this part, "
..culture and religion have more significant impact on life chances than the existence of racism"
The writers have segmented culture and ethnicity.
Which speaks to my point above.
It would be interesting to know, do you think everyone that has been critical of the report hasn't read it? [Post edited 2 Apr 2021 13:01]
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| So in the past 48 hours on 13:26 - Apr 2 with 1139 views | Herbivore |
The UK must have changed an awful lot in the past 3 or 4 years to have reached the conclusion that being from a BAME background doesn't disadvantage you in the labour market: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46927417 [Post edited 2 Apr 2021 13:31]
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| So in the past 48 hours on 13:30 - Apr 2 with 1125 views | Herbivore |
| So in the past 48 hours on 12:50 - Apr 2 by eireblue |
So you gave me a down arrow, before asking and knowing the answers to your questions?
"deeply racist country vs good thing", are not the only two outcomes.
Yes I read most of the report.
Including this part, "
..culture and religion have more significant impact on life chances than the existence of racism"
The writers have segmented culture and ethnicity.
Which speaks to my point above.
It would be interesting to know, do you think everyone that has been critical of the report hasn't read it? [Post edited 2 Apr 2021 13:01]
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It's pretty evident they have focused as narrowly as possible on indicators that they feel back up the conclusion they'd reached before they even began compiling the report. It was always going to be a whitewash, and that's precisely what it is. | |
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| So in the past 48 hours on 13:47 - Apr 2 with 1101 views | eireblue |
| So in the past 48 hours on 13:26 - Apr 2 by Herbivore |
The UK must have changed an awful lot in the past 3 or 4 years to have reached the conclusion that being from a BAME background doesn't disadvantage you in the labour market: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46927417 [Post edited 2 Apr 2021 13:31]
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I think that is a good example.
The report does consider such examples.
This is what the report said about that.
"While these applicaton tests show discrimination against names that are recognised as not being traditionally British, it is unclear if this effect is about race, class or perceived foreign culture. More granular studies should be conducted which manipulate first names as well as surnames, class as well as ethnicity, and which include greater and lesser levels of CV qualifications, as all have been found to affect the results."
Again, they separated "race" from "perceived foreign culture".
And as I mentioned to Lowhouse, the report managed to come to a definite conclusion,
that there isn't systemic/institutional racism, whilst simultaneously stating more studies need to be done.
They reached that conclusion by saying, well, something is going on, not sure what it is, so needs more study, but it definitely isn't the thing we decided didn't exist before we started the report.
To me that is intellectually very weak if not disingenuous. | | | |
| So in the past 48 hours on 14:00 - Apr 2 with 1090 views | Herbivore |
| So in the past 48 hours on 13:47 - Apr 2 by eireblue |
I think that is a good example.
The report does consider such examples.
This is what the report said about that.
"While these applicaton tests show discrimination against names that are recognised as not being traditionally British, it is unclear if this effect is about race, class or perceived foreign culture. More granular studies should be conducted which manipulate first names as well as surnames, class as well as ethnicity, and which include greater and lesser levels of CV qualifications, as all have been found to affect the results."
Again, they separated "race" from "perceived foreign culture".
And as I mentioned to Lowhouse, the report managed to come to a definite conclusion,
that there isn't systemic/institutional racism, whilst simultaneously stating more studies need to be done.
They reached that conclusion by saying, well, something is going on, not sure what it is, so needs more study, but it definitely isn't the thing we decided didn't exist before we started the report.
To me that is intellectually very weak if not disingenuous. |
Their response to studies like that one makes no sense. As you say, separating race from 'perceived foreign culture' is a nonsense for one thing, but if the bias is down to class then surely that suggests that assumptions are being made about the individual's social class on the basis of them having an 'ethnic' sounding name in a way that isn't the case with those with 'traditional' British names? Is that not a form of racial prejudice in itself?
At best they are treating a nuanced and multifaceted issue in a very one-dimensional way. The more likely explanation is that its simply a whitewash. Everyone knew before the report what the outcome would be. It's a study in confirmation bias. [Post edited 2 Apr 2021 14:01]
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