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is it the coaching ? 10:28 - Apr 14 with 1234 viewsHARRY10

Young players break into the first team, then seem to stall

Are they being played above their abilities, or just not being progressed ?
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is it the coaching ? on 10:31 - Apr 14 with 947 viewsreusersfreekicks

The latter i reckon. Coaching at first team level must have been cack under PL.
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is it the coaching ? on 10:34 - Apr 14 with 932 viewsHARRY10

is it the coaching ? on 10:31 - Apr 14 by reusersfreekicks

The latter i reckon. Coaching at first team level must have been cack under PL.


Where now Gill in future plans ?
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is it the coaching ? on 10:35 - Apr 14 with 921 viewsjayessess

Young players in the first team are going to be inconsistent, they're going to have ups and downs. If we're going to pretend we're a club that develops our own players, we need to have a bit of patience with it. Think about what sort of player they're going to be when they're 23+, not just dwell on the indifferent games they have as a 21-year-old.

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is it the coaching ? on 10:41 - Apr 14 with 905 viewsHARRY10

is it the coaching ? on 10:35 - Apr 14 by jayessess

Young players in the first team are going to be inconsistent, they're going to have ups and downs. If we're going to pretend we're a club that develops our own players, we need to have a bit of patience with it. Think about what sort of player they're going to be when they're 23+, not just dwell on the indifferent games they have as a 21-year-old.


It is not a case of indifferent games, but not seeing progress.

How many have developed since their first appearance ?

Where is there any goalkeeper or striker ?
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is it the coaching ? on 10:43 - Apr 14 with 898 viewsHerbivore

is it the coaching ? on 10:35 - Apr 14 by jayessess

Young players in the first team are going to be inconsistent, they're going to have ups and downs. If we're going to pretend we're a club that develops our own players, we need to have a bit of patience with it. Think about what sort of player they're going to be when they're 23+, not just dwell on the indifferent games they have as a 21-year-old.


Precisely this. It's very rare for a player to come in at 19/20 and perform well every week, and when they do they usually end up in the Prem pretty quickly. Most young players will be inconsistent and many will need a break from the team at times. Mick saw this with Downes, took him out of the limelight and let him go elsewhere for a few months to play with a bit less pressure on him. Now he's our best player.

Look at the response to Dozzell from a chunk of our fanbase this season. The kid is a regular starter for the first time in his career playing a challenging position shielding the back 4 mostly in what is a very physical league. People are expecting him to be Xavi or Pirlo every week and when he falls below expectations it's decided he's not good enough for us and never will be. He has been hit and miss and has faded lately, but that's what you'd expect of most youngsters especially playing in his role. If we had a better squad we could have used him more sparingly of late, or given him a bit more protection on the pitch, but we haven't had that.

If he stays, he'll be a much better player next season for the experiences he's had this year and hopefully with a more functional side around him he'll kick on. But the expectation that just because he's a talented player with big things expected of him he should be ripping it up every week in a dysfunctional team is madness. And the vitriol at times when he dares to make a mistake is shameful. We have some right plums as fans.

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is it the coaching ? on 10:48 - Apr 14 with 883 viewsRadlett_blue

I think the malaise at town goes back to the appointment of Hurst. Even allowing for the fact that his signings weren't up to the Championship, the turnover created a "us & them" mentality among the Town squad, with some of the senior pros, led by Chambers, seriously questioning Hurst's methods. While they may have had reason to do so, I think that led to a huge split in the squad. Lambert didn't help by bringing in rafts of loan players. Town's steep decline can be pretty much traced back to the summer of 2018.

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is it the coaching ? on 10:50 - Apr 14 with 879 viewsHARRY10

Downes is one player, out of how many players .... and how many seasons ?

Has any player really improved this season ?
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is it the coaching ? on 11:01 - Apr 14 with 861 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

To be fair injuries have played a huge part... Nydam, Dozzell, Lankester and Morris have surely been set back by their injuries.

Downes has kicked on, and hopefully Woolfenden will find form again.

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is it the coaching ? on 11:01 - Apr 14 with 861 viewschrismakin

is it the coaching ? on 10:50 - Apr 14 by HARRY10

Downes is one player, out of how many players .... and how many seasons ?

Has any player really improved this season ?


but we're asking to much of academy players to run the side,

In the burley years, yeah we had some youngsters come through, but had experience in 9/10 of the other positions, we didn't rely on youngsters for a whole season as our spine of the team.

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is it the coaching ? on 11:02 - Apr 14 with 855 viewsjayessess

is it the coaching ? on 10:41 - Apr 14 by HARRY10

It is not a case of indifferent games, but not seeing progress.

How many have developed since their first appearance ?

Where is there any goalkeeper or striker ?


I know it's not fashionable to say, but Dozzell's genuinely progressed this season and pretty much everyone was saying so back in the Autumn/Winter. He needs a rest and a partner who contributes more than Bishop does. Downes has had a difficult year with injuries. Woolfenden evidently suffered from being the senior defender in an inexperienced pairing and now playing out of position. Lankester I suspect has never been quite ready for first team football and needs strength work and tactical coaching.

All of them are playing in a bad team, where the senior players aren't playing their parts very well, which is far from ideal for their development.

As for goalkeeper and strikers - we have 7 academy products regularly available for the first team. That's a lot! You aren't going to get a player for every position, that isn't how this works.
[Post edited 14 Apr 2021 11:03]

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is it the coaching ? on 11:04 - Apr 14 with 841 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

is it the coaching ? on 11:01 - Apr 14 by chrismakin

but we're asking to much of academy players to run the side,

In the burley years, yeah we had some youngsters come through, but had experience in 9/10 of the other positions, we didn't rely on youngsters for a whole season as our spine of the team.


We're also in an age where players get bought by Prem clubs before they even reach the first team; Charlie Brown, Ben Knight, Marcelo Flores.

Who knows, these days Dyer may have been poached before he made a first team appearance.

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is it the coaching ? on 11:10 - Apr 14 with 822 viewschrismakin

is it the coaching ? on 11:04 - Apr 14 by Marshalls_Mullet

We're also in an age where players get bought by Prem clubs before they even reach the first team; Charlie Brown, Ben Knight, Marcelo Flores.

Who knows, these days Dyer may have been poached before he made a first team appearance.


I asked something last week about our upcoming players.... where's our next Wickham, Scowcroft type players etc

we seem to be bringing in the same fluffy type academy players, small, unbalanced, need work. As you say, we are probably left with the ok players and already lost the next breed of good standard academy players.

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is it the coaching ? on 11:16 - Apr 14 with 804 viewsRadlett_blue

is it the coaching ? on 11:02 - Apr 14 by jayessess

I know it's not fashionable to say, but Dozzell's genuinely progressed this season and pretty much everyone was saying so back in the Autumn/Winter. He needs a rest and a partner who contributes more than Bishop does. Downes has had a difficult year with injuries. Woolfenden evidently suffered from being the senior defender in an inexperienced pairing and now playing out of position. Lankester I suspect has never been quite ready for first team football and needs strength work and tactical coaching.

All of them are playing in a bad team, where the senior players aren't playing their parts very well, which is far from ideal for their development.

As for goalkeeper and strikers - we have 7 academy products regularly available for the first team. That's a lot! You aren't going to get a player for every position, that isn't how this works.
[Post edited 14 Apr 2021 11:03]


Pretty much spot on. Dozzell has played a full season for the first time in his career & has clearly strengthened up hugely. Some of us forget he's still only 21 & he can be a big player for Town, especially if we work out his best position & how he fits into Cook's system. Him, Bishop & Downes should all be really strong players in this league.

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is it the coaching ? on 11:16 - Apr 14 with 804 viewsHARRY10

is it the coaching ? on 11:02 - Apr 14 by jayessess

I know it's not fashionable to say, but Dozzell's genuinely progressed this season and pretty much everyone was saying so back in the Autumn/Winter. He needs a rest and a partner who contributes more than Bishop does. Downes has had a difficult year with injuries. Woolfenden evidently suffered from being the senior defender in an inexperienced pairing and now playing out of position. Lankester I suspect has never been quite ready for first team football and needs strength work and tactical coaching.

All of them are playing in a bad team, where the senior players aren't playing their parts very well, which is far from ideal for their development.

As for goalkeeper and strikers - we have 7 academy products regularly available for the first team. That's a lot! You aren't going to get a player for every position, that isn't how this works.
[Post edited 14 Apr 2021 11:03]


15 years waiting for a keeper ?

When was the last attacking player ?
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is it the coaching ? on 11:17 - Apr 14 with 793 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

is it the coaching ? on 11:10 - Apr 14 by chrismakin

I asked something last week about our upcoming players.... where's our next Wickham, Scowcroft type players etc

we seem to be bringing in the same fluffy type academy players, small, unbalanced, need work. As you say, we are probably left with the ok players and already lost the next breed of good standard academy players.


Tyreece Simpson would be the one in that mould. Not sure how good he is yet.

To be fair the examples of Scowie and Wickham are two examples that span a 15-20 year period.

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is it the coaching ? on 11:19 - Apr 14 with 778 viewschrismakin

is it the coaching ? on 11:17 - Apr 14 by Marshalls_Mullet

Tyreece Simpson would be the one in that mould. Not sure how good he is yet.

To be fair the examples of Scowie and Wickham are two examples that span a 15-20 year period.


Oh, i appreciate, im going back a bit, but its just a general point in that we don't seem to produce any other type of player other than flair midfielders.

Simpson apparently to some say he's way off

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is it the coaching ? on 11:21 - Apr 14 with 773 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

is it the coaching ? on 11:19 - Apr 14 by chrismakin

Oh, i appreciate, im going back a bit, but its just a general point in that we don't seem to produce any other type of player other than flair midfielders.

Simpson apparently to some say he's way off


Downes, Wooflie, Nydam, I wouldnt put them in that category.

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is it the coaching ? on 11:22 - Apr 14 with 764 viewsHerbivore

is it the coaching ? on 11:16 - Apr 14 by HARRY10

15 years waiting for a keeper ?

When was the last attacking player ?


Keepers tend to develop much later so will often leave clubs of our stature before working their way back up. How many sides are playing keepers that have come through their own academies? It's usually not many.

Jack Lankester and Ben Morris are the last two attacking players we've developed, both in and around the first team when we were still a Championship side. Both have sadly been hampered by serious injuries though.

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is it the coaching ? on 11:27 - Apr 14 with 756 viewsjayessess

is it the coaching ? on 11:04 - Apr 14 by Marshalls_Mullet

We're also in an age where players get bought by Prem clubs before they even reach the first team; Charlie Brown, Ben Knight, Marcelo Flores.

Who knows, these days Dyer may have been poached before he made a first team appearance.


I'm not convinced that's doing us much harm, to be honest. We're losing these players at 15 when it's very difficult to assess potential and we're keeping lots of other ones who might end up just as good.

It's as likely as not that the fee paid to Ipswich for these lads is the most value they'll ever have. Almost certainly in Brown's case.

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is it the coaching ? on 11:30 - Apr 14 with 745 viewsgordon

We've had a pretty good academy, and pretty disjointed, short-term attitude to the first-team set up for years, so don't think this is very surprising.
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is it the coaching ? on 11:36 - Apr 14 with 735 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

is it the coaching ? on 11:27 - Apr 14 by jayessess

I'm not convinced that's doing us much harm, to be honest. We're losing these players at 15 when it's very difficult to assess potential and we're keeping lots of other ones who might end up just as good.

It's as likely as not that the fee paid to Ipswich for these lads is the most value they'll ever have. Almost certainly in Brown's case.


My main issue was losing Knights, who Klug referred to as the 'best young player he has ever worked with'.

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is it the coaching ? on 11:54 - Apr 14 with 727 viewsjayessess

is it the coaching ? on 11:36 - Apr 14 by Marshalls_Mullet

My main issue was losing Knights, who Klug referred to as the 'best young player he has ever worked with'.


Equally, Knight at 18 isn't in either the England U19s or U18s, so doesn't seem to be developing at a higher level than Dozzell, Downes and Nydam did.

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is it the coaching ? on 12:05 - Apr 14 with 714 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

is it the coaching ? on 11:54 - Apr 14 by jayessess

Equally, Knight at 18 isn't in either the England U19s or U18s, so doesn't seem to be developing at a higher level than Dozzell, Downes and Nydam did.


That's no reflection on our academy, he may well have been better suited to staying at ITFC and thriving at a smaller club.

Flores is also doing well at Arsenal.

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is it the coaching ? on 12:16 - Apr 14 with 702 viewsjayessess

is it the coaching ? on 12:05 - Apr 14 by Marshalls_Mullet

That's no reflection on our academy, he may well have been better suited to staying at ITFC and thriving at a smaller club.

Flores is also doing well at Arsenal.


The point is just that taking a 15-year-old is a roll of the dice and losing a handful of good ones over the course of half a decade isn't really a significant impediment to producing first team players.

Kids' vary enormously and who knows, Knight might have thrived in a smaller academy, but in general City's academy produces far more elite footballers than ours does.

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is it the coaching ? on 12:17 - Apr 14 with 695 viewsjayessess

is it the coaching ? on 12:05 - Apr 14 by Marshalls_Mullet

That's no reflection on our academy, he may well have been better suited to staying at ITFC and thriving at a smaller club.

Flores is also doing well at Arsenal.


The point is just that taking a 15-year-old is a roll of the dice and losing a handful of good ones over the course of half a decade isn't really a significant impediment to producing first team players.

Kids vary enormously and who knows, Knight might have thrived in a smaller academy, but in general you're far more likely to become an elite footballer at City's academy.

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