| Go on Kier! 12:40 - Apr 16 with 7764 views | monytowbray |
Can we start calling him unelectable yet?! |  |
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| Go on Kier! on 15:03 - Apr 16 with 932 views | tractordownsouth |
| Go on Kier! on 14:50 - Apr 16 by tractordownsouth |
Don’t get me wrong, this poll sure is a worry. However the idea that he’s done nothing to highlight cronyism isn’t accurate. There have been calls for inquiries over Cameron/Greensill, and numerous PMQs questions about Hancock’s dodgy dealings.
As per your previous point, the demographic of voters does actually matter. It’s great to get people from my generation on board, however we’re mostly concentrated in already-safe Labour seats. The reason the vote share went up in 2017 while getting nowhere near winning was partly by winning suburban marginals, but also by increasing already healthy majorities in Hackney, Islington and Tottenham by another 10k votes. It’s great but utterly meaningless under the current system and until that system changes, the focus needs to be on marginals in the North, Midlands and Scotland, where Corbyn and Corbynism weren’t popular to most voters. |
Funnily enough this just appeared on my twitter feed
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| Go on Kier! on 15:09 - Apr 16 with 930 views | Herbivore |
| Go on Kier! on 14:50 - Apr 16 by tractordownsouth |
Don’t get me wrong, this poll sure is a worry. However the idea that he’s done nothing to highlight cronyism isn’t accurate. There have been calls for inquiries over Cameron/Greensill, and numerous PMQs questions about Hancock’s dodgy dealings.
As per your previous point, the demographic of voters does actually matter. It’s great to get people from my generation on board, however we’re mostly concentrated in already-safe Labour seats. The reason the vote share went up in 2017 while getting nowhere near winning was partly by winning suburban marginals, but also by increasing already healthy majorities in Hackney, Islington and Tottenham by another 10k votes. It’s great but utterly meaningless under the current system and until that system changes, the focus needs to be on marginals in the North, Midlands and Scotland, where Corbyn and Corbynism weren’t popular to most voters. |
2017 saw some large Labour majorities turned into marginals in a number of red wall seats. Sadly, Labour didn't heed the warning signs and the red wall crumbled 2 years later. Labour now have an absolute mountain to climb to get back into power and that is on Corbyn. |  |
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| Go on Kier! on 15:09 - Apr 16 with 929 views | Darth_Koont |
| Go on Kier! on 14:37 - Apr 16 by StokieBlue |
Not really what I said.
I've merely pointed out that there are historical precedents for populations showing a large level of support for governments during times of crisis and then flipping totally the other way when those crisis times pass. I am sure in 1944 Churchill didn't expect to be totally smashed in an election a year later.
It's possible that Starmer might never recover or get close to the Tories but I just think that history shows that making judgements during crisis times doesn't always hold when those times pass and thus it's likely that it doesn't really have much to do with Starmer at all and a lot more to do with the current situation in the country.
I guess time will tell.
SB [Post edited 16 Apr 2021 14:38]
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I think that’s a bit charitable. Starmer has had cut through over the past year – and the more they’ve heard the less they’ve liked.
Case in point was BLM where he managed to annoy both sides at the same time.
The comparison with the Post War election is an interesting one but I think that there was an inevitable move left as part of the settlement with the British people who had sacrificed so much. There was a need to invest in society and push for a more democratised version.
I think the pandemic is similar though not as traumatic) given how it’s exposed inequalities. Inequalities that have been ignored and even exacerbated by successive governments. That’s where we can look more at Biden’s approach that, at least on the surface, is making the right moves.
Contrast that with the UK where we’re doubling down on Brexit and exceptionalism to project an image, rather than address failures. And it’s an area where Starmer has been moving into as his take on addressing the Red Wall. To my mind, that’s woefully wrong. He’s going to be outflanked on that at every stage by the right, while he’s also been outflanked by everyone else on the issues concerning the centre and the left. That failure to show leadership, stand up for values and offer a credible alternative is what the polling figures reflect.
And all this during a period where he could have been consolidating allies rather than alienating them to prove a point. The point being that he wasn’t a threat to the establishment and anyone in power. Well, that’s undoubtedly been his greatest success. |  |
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| Go on Kier! on 15:14 - Apr 16 with 915 views | Darth_Koont |
| Go on Kier! on 14:54 - Apr 16 by tractordownsouth |
The 2017 election where the Labour Party got only 4 more seats than 2010, despite the worst Tory campaign in years? Implying it was anything other than a defeat is disingenuous.
How was it was “sabotaged?” |
You’re joking?
Not a cult. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 15:18 - Apr 16 with 907 views | Darth_Koont |
| Go on Kier! on 15:09 - Apr 16 by Herbivore |
2017 saw some large Labour majorities turned into marginals in a number of red wall seats. Sadly, Labour didn't heed the warning signs and the red wall crumbled 2 years later. Labour now have an absolute mountain to climb to get back into power and that is on Corbyn. |
Not reversing a trend was on him?
Who’s fault is losing Scotland? | |
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| Go on Kier! on 15:19 - Apr 16 with 903 views | tractordownsouth |
| Go on Kier! on 15:09 - Apr 16 by Herbivore |
2017 saw some large Labour majorities turned into marginals in a number of red wall seats. Sadly, Labour didn't heed the warning signs and the red wall crumbled 2 years later. Labour now have an absolute mountain to climb to get back into power and that is on Corbyn. |
Yep - I still think Starmer’s role will likely be to put Labour in a position from which to win in 2028. Ironically that will probably involve a result similar to 2017, with the difference being that he’ll likely let someone like Burnham take over rather than acting as if he’s pulled off a victory despite being 50 seats behind the Tories.
Maybe it can be done in 1 jump, but I doubt it. Cameron managed to gain 100 seats in 2010 but the Tories weren’t too far behind Labour in terms of vote share in 2005 so the majorities they had to overturn weren’t as big. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 15:25 - Apr 16 with 892 views | Darth_Koont |
| Go on Kier! on 15:19 - Apr 16 by tractordownsouth |
Yep - I still think Starmer’s role will likely be to put Labour in a position from which to win in 2028. Ironically that will probably involve a result similar to 2017, with the difference being that he’ll likely let someone like Burnham take over rather than acting as if he’s pulled off a victory despite being 50 seats behind the Tories.
Maybe it can be done in 1 jump, but I doubt it. Cameron managed to gain 100 seats in 2010 but the Tories weren’t too far behind Labour in terms of vote share in 2005 so the majorities they had to overturn weren’t as big. |
Delusional. And quite frankly insulting given how little the Labour right cared about Corbyn’s polling LEADS.
Whatever this “project” is, it’s a dead duck unless they pull their finger out. Trudging to 2028 with self-congratulatory murmurs of “Well said Keir” sounds nothing short of a death cult. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 15:27 - Apr 16 with 878 views | BlueBadger |
| Go on Kier! on 14:33 - Apr 16 by monytowbray |
And which loser out of Brown/Milliband was the answer? |
From the 2015 leadership race, I'd have gone with Yvette Coopper.
Held some high-profile positions, always in on the good fight and would have shown up that patronising fraud Cameron for the smarmy, sexist incompetent that he was.
Probably wouldn't have hidden during the referendum, either. |  |
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| Go on Kier! on 15:28 - Apr 16 with 874 views | tractordownsouth |
| Go on Kier! on 15:14 - Apr 16 by Darth_Koont |
You’re joking?
Not a cult. |
The issue is that there’s always an excuse which exonerates the leader of any responsibility.
In 1983 it was the SDP splitting the vote, in 2017 it was undefined “sabotage” and in 2019 it was Brexit, the media, Change UK and goodness knows what else. In contrast, I think most people accept that Brown and Miliband lost their respective elections because they weren’t very good leaders. And I say that as someone who likes both of them. That’s not to say that any ‘side’ has a monopoly on being right, but there seems to be a complete inability to learn lessons from the Corbyn era.
In most instances, elections are down to the leader. Sure, other factors make things harder but most of the times they can be negated. For example, Labour could’ve prevented the 2019 Brexit conundrum by voting for May’s Deal or just simply not giving Johnson the election he craved. Similarly, Corbyn could’ve avoided a media onslaught had he not shared platforms with all sorts of dodgy figures in his time as a backbenchers. And Miliband could’ve done better against Cameron had he properly challenged the narrative about Labour causing the crash. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 15:32 - Apr 16 with 858 views | tractordownsouth |
| Go on Kier! on 15:25 - Apr 16 by Darth_Koont |
Delusional. And quite frankly insulting given how little the Labour right cared about Corbyn’s polling LEADS.
Whatever this “project” is, it’s a dead duck unless they pull their finger out. Trudging to 2028 with self-congratulatory murmurs of “Well said Keir” sounds nothing short of a death cult. |
It took him over 2 years to get a sustained lead, and even then that went down the toilet after a couple of months.
It’s not delusional, it’s realistic. Who in the current PLP could gain 100 seats at the next election if they became leader?
I’ve said I wouldn’t be happy “trudging to 2028” with Starmer. If he doesn’t win in 2024, I’ll want him to be replaced and for someone else to take over, rather than cheering him on at Glastonbury. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 15:33 - Apr 16 with 857 views | Darth_Koont |
| Go on Kier! on 15:28 - Apr 16 by tractordownsouth |
The issue is that there’s always an excuse which exonerates the leader of any responsibility.
In 1983 it was the SDP splitting the vote, in 2017 it was undefined “sabotage” and in 2019 it was Brexit, the media, Change UK and goodness knows what else. In contrast, I think most people accept that Brown and Miliband lost their respective elections because they weren’t very good leaders. And I say that as someone who likes both of them. That’s not to say that any ‘side’ has a monopoly on being right, but there seems to be a complete inability to learn lessons from the Corbyn era.
In most instances, elections are down to the leader. Sure, other factors make things harder but most of the times they can be negated. For example, Labour could’ve prevented the 2019 Brexit conundrum by voting for May’s Deal or just simply not giving Johnson the election he craved. Similarly, Corbyn could’ve avoided a media onslaught had he not shared platforms with all sorts of dodgy figures in his time as a backbenchers. And Miliband could’ve done better against Cameron had he properly challenged the narrative about Labour causing the crash. |
Wow!
You’ll be glad to know I give up. I can’t deal with blinkered revisionist bs like that. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 15:35 - Apr 16 with 853 views | Mullet |
| Go on Kier! on 13:31 - Apr 16 by monytowbray |
"The fact you demonise this Labour right over these Tory bastards is exactly the problem."
Oh so NOW it's a problem?! Mate.
You keep living in this made up narrative that Starmer's failure is all down to Corbyn based on zero evidence. I'll live in the reality you need to accept that perhaps the centralist vision of a neoliberal capitalist-lite leader with some green washed policies will win the hearts of the nation.
PS. The same leader won't be enough to save the planet either. We tick along on the fence at our own demise. |
I haven’t said that at all. I’ve said he’s constantly treated by Corbynistas in the same way they complained JC was. If you’re going to argue against anyone you need to stop inventing your preferred arguments. You’ve done it repeatedly in this thread and vindicated several people. |  |
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| Go on Kier! on 15:37 - Apr 16 with 842 views | Herbivore |
| Go on Kier! on 15:18 - Apr 16 by Darth_Koont |
Not reversing a trend was on him?
Who’s fault is losing Scotland? |
Not reversing a trend? He handed the Tories an 80 seat majority, ffs. Do you not see Corbyn as bearing any responsibility for such a catastrophic electoral defeat?
Yeah, definitely not a cult. [Post edited 16 Apr 2021 15:37]
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| Go on Kier! on 15:37 - Apr 16 with 832 views | tractordownsouth |
| Go on Kier! on 15:33 - Apr 16 by Darth_Koont |
Wow!
You’ll be glad to know I give up. I can’t deal with blinkered revisionist bs like that. |
Sums up the Corbyn attitude perfectly.
“I won’t bother discussing issues with people who disagree with me, I’ll just go and cheer on the leader while he preaches to the converted instead” | |
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| Go on Kier! on 16:29 - Apr 16 with 792 views | monytowbray |
| Go on Kier! on 15:35 - Apr 16 by Mullet |
I haven’t said that at all. I’ve said he’s constantly treated by Corbynistas in the same way they complained JC was. If you’re going to argue against anyone you need to stop inventing your preferred arguments. You’ve done it repeatedly in this thread and vindicated several people. |
As a Corbyn voter I find Starmer's problem is he largely doesn't represent my believes, if it helps you talk to one directly and not just make things up.
You've still presented zero evidence of this theory you keep shouting into the void. You should turn on all caps for added effect. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 16:32 - Apr 16 with 791 views | monytowbray |
| Go on Kier! on 15:03 - Apr 16 by tractordownsouth |
Funnily enough this just appeared on my twitter feed
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He barely touches it and treads lightly as if someone's just farted at a tea party rather than committed blind robbery from taxpayers whilst most worry about finances.
Good Law Project and Byline times coverage was how Starmer should have approached this. It should have been screamed over and over. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 16:33 - Apr 16 with 787 views | monytowbray |
| Go on Kier! on 15:37 - Apr 16 by Herbivore |
Not reversing a trend? He handed the Tories an 80 seat majority, ffs. Do you not see Corbyn as bearing any responsibility for such a catastrophic electoral defeat?
Yeah, definitely not a cult. [Post edited 16 Apr 2021 15:37]
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Again, he pretends 2017 didn't happen. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 16:34 - Apr 16 with 783 views | Herbivore |
| Go on Kier! on 16:32 - Apr 16 by monytowbray |
He barely touches it and treads lightly as if someone's just farted at a tea party rather than committed blind robbery from taxpayers whilst most worry about finances.
Good Law Project and Byline times coverage was how Starmer should have approached this. It should have been screamed over and over. |
Yes, describing the actions of the Tories as "sleaze" definitely looks to me like someone treading lightly around and barely touching the issue. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 16:38 - Apr 16 with 773 views | monytowbray |
| Go on Kier! on 16:34 - Apr 16 by Herbivore |
Yes, describing the actions of the Tories as "sleaze" definitely looks to me like someone treading lightly around and barely touching the issue. |
How many members of the public know about the details of this? Or care?
It's an outright failure to play the right cards and get the public onside. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 16:47 - Apr 16 with 761 views | Herbivore |
| Go on Kier! on 16:38 - Apr 16 by monytowbray |
How many members of the public know about the details of this? Or care?
It's an outright failure to play the right cards and get the public onside. |
What? | |
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| Go on Kier! on 17:17 - Apr 16 with 738 views | Darth_Koont |
| Go on Kier! on 15:37 - Apr 16 by Herbivore |
Not reversing a trend? He handed the Tories an 80 seat majority, ffs. Do you not see Corbyn as bearing any responsibility for such a catastrophic electoral defeat?
Yeah, definitely not a cult. [Post edited 16 Apr 2021 15:37]
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There were lots of reasons he lost. From a trend of Labour losing support in the regions and outside the cities for decades, to sh1thousery within the party (Change UK, antisemitism smears, PLP briefings against the leadership on a daily basis) to a hostile media that made up the majority of its attacks, to Brexit dominating the agenda and yes, even to Corbyn himself.
He did have certain weaknesses and vulnerabilities due to who he is and what he stands for. But they’re also strengths. Standing up for poor people around the world is a good thing and not just proof that he hates Britain. Of course, his opponents will focus on and exaggerate these as weaknesses but you need to accept that as a politician.
But you’ll never see me criticizing Starmer for being a Sir, for having been in the establishment before as DPP, for being low key, for not having much political experience etc. as I don’t see those as weaknesses but as strengths. With the right message.
That’s why I thought he was a good choice as leader. But pitching right and distancing himself from the progressive platform he said he was committed to it’s his weaknesses that are exposed more and more. It’s just not a package that works and especially as opposition to Johnson. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 17:27 - Apr 16 with 725 views | Darth_Koont |
| Go on Kier! on 15:37 - Apr 16 by tractordownsouth |
Sums up the Corbyn attitude perfectly.
“I won’t bother discussing issues with people who disagree with me, I’ll just go and cheer on the leader while he preaches to the converted instead” |
No, I think you’re being disingenuous.
For you, it’s all about ignoring what happened and is happening in politics and society to excuse Starmer and even blame Corbyn.
Why do you think Labour has been losing voters since 1997 bar a mini-resurgence in 2017? That inability to see a doomed trajectory and insist on following the same path is going to keep the Tories in power for another decade until another party entirely comes along.
What is the point? | |
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| Go on Kier! on 17:29 - Apr 16 with 717 views | giant_stow |
| Go on Kier! on 15:18 - Apr 16 by Darth_Koont |
Not reversing a trend was on him?
Who’s fault is losing Scotland? |
The SNP and its braveheart populist appeal to simpletons approach. Always good to have an enemy to blame and didn;t they just. |  |
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| Go on Kier! on 17:30 - Apr 16 with 716 views | Herbivore |
| Go on Kier! on 17:17 - Apr 16 by Darth_Koont |
There were lots of reasons he lost. From a trend of Labour losing support in the regions and outside the cities for decades, to sh1thousery within the party (Change UK, antisemitism smears, PLP briefings against the leadership on a daily basis) to a hostile media that made up the majority of its attacks, to Brexit dominating the agenda and yes, even to Corbyn himself.
He did have certain weaknesses and vulnerabilities due to who he is and what he stands for. But they’re also strengths. Standing up for poor people around the world is a good thing and not just proof that he hates Britain. Of course, his opponents will focus on and exaggerate these as weaknesses but you need to accept that as a politician.
But you’ll never see me criticizing Starmer for being a Sir, for having been in the establishment before as DPP, for being low key, for not having much political experience etc. as I don’t see those as weaknesses but as strengths. With the right message.
That’s why I thought he was a good choice as leader. But pitching right and distancing himself from the progressive platform he said he was committed to it’s his weaknesses that are exposed more and more. It’s just not a package that works and especially as opposition to Johnson. |
I like how Corbyn is last on your list of why Labour lost so catastrophically in 2019 and any minor criticism of him is turned back into an issue of media perception rather than actually being Corbyn's fault.
This is precisely why people talk of Corbynites as being a cult. There's just no realism about how deeply unpopular he was with a large chunk of the electorate, including traditional Labour voters, or any attempt to understand the reasons why beyond simplistically blaming the media. | |
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| Go on Kier! on 17:32 - Apr 16 with 708 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Go on Kier! on 17:29 - Apr 16 by giant_stow |
The SNP and its braveheart populist appeal to simpletons approach. Always good to have an enemy to blame and didn;t they just. |
This thread is like a Labour Party conference! |  |
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