| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... 08:14 - Apr 19 with 4803 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
All those Labour types banging on and on about a second referendum. If only Corbyn had been allowed to go with his 7 out of 10 gut!! Each and every time Labour supporters shouted "yeah but you're all thick, Referendum2"....drip...drip...drip!
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/apr/19/labour-will-never-govern-unless
"Healey pointed to the fact that Labour lost 87 seats to the Conservatives in the 2010 election, and eight more in 2015. Of these, 83 areas went on to support Brexit in the 2016 referendum. Brexit was, he said, “both an effect of this dislocation and a cause of further disillusion” |  |
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:17 - Apr 19 with 1190 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
I think the point you are trying to make is true.
Labour has spent too many years telling its traditional core vote what to think instead of listening to what they actually do think.
The perception at least, esp with brexit is that entire swathes of Labour heartlands have been branded racist because they voted for Brexit, which they understandably took exception to..... even more so given Corbyns scepticism towards Europe, so the above was all compounded by him changing his stance.
Labour's issue is party is now full of middle class left leaning types (that's not a judgement just an observation) who bare no resemblance to traditional labour voters (this is not a problem for the Tories as they never expect Tory MP's to bare that same resemblance) telling them they should be in favour of being run (at least as they see it) by a bunch of Eurocrats that are even further removed from having anything remotely in common with said traditional labour voters.
If the party stopped treating them as thick and listened to and represented those concerns (which is at the end of the day what labour is supposed to do, represnet and advocate for what are considerd working class voters) as opposed to ignoring and dismissing those concerns it wouldn't be in this mess. [Post edited 19 Apr 2021 10:30]
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:25 - Apr 19 with 1170 views | JakeITFC |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:05 - Apr 19 by Herbivore |
They took too long to arrive at a position and then didn't articulate it in a way that the electorate could buy into. Given how weak they were on Brexit their best move would have been to work alongside others to try to bring some kind of resolution to Brexit once Johnson had lost his working majority, and then call a GE that could be fought on a GE platform. The Tories won in 2019 without even putting out a proper manifesto, ffs.
What we had was a proxy second referendum but one where the popular majority actually lost heavily because of FPTP. Labour and Corbyn weren't alone in dropping the ball in 2019, but they certainly did nothing to prevent the situation we now find ourselves in. |
The difficulty with that is that they were in effect blocking Brexit legislation at every turn in the Commons during the period between the GEs and so it probably looked like they were pro-remain at a quick glance, but not actually pro-remain at all in terms of policy.
It is a real tragedy to me that the closest we've come to rectifying a lot of the social inequality in this country was instead marginalised by a one issue election on a vote that had happened three years previously. That Johnson was able to run on a 'vote tory for change and to get things done' ticket is still an absolute joke two years on. |  | | |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:28 - Apr 19 with 1160 views | Lord_Lucan |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:15 - Apr 19 by Herbivore |
But you think that would have changed their minds and made them not vote leave? I'm not really seeing how that follows. |
Yes I 100% do.
I think it was cringeworthy the way anyone who expressed an opinion of voting out was vilified and it still happens, not least on here.
It was childish and abusive and I think that a huge amount of people were swayed because of what they were reading and seeing.
In fact I would say that it was an absolutely massive thing. No one was listening!!!
What is it you hipsters say?
Own you're own sh1t Motherfeckers*
*I added Motherfeckers for dramatic affect and I also like saying it. |  |
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:29 - Apr 19 with 1152 views | Herbivore |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:25 - Apr 19 by JakeITFC |
The difficulty with that is that they were in effect blocking Brexit legislation at every turn in the Commons during the period between the GEs and so it probably looked like they were pro-remain at a quick glance, but not actually pro-remain at all in terms of policy.
It is a real tragedy to me that the closest we've come to rectifying a lot of the social inequality in this country was instead marginalised by a one issue election on a vote that had happened three years previously. That Johnson was able to run on a 'vote tory for change and to get things done' ticket is still an absolute joke two years on. |
But Corbyn lacked the nous (and political will) to try to find a different outcome. There could be no GE without Labour's support and if they didn't want it to be a single issue GE based on Brexit then they needed to work to find some way to resolve the Brexit impasse with their colleagues in Parliament and then look to a GE that would be based on policy. Labour weren't bystanders in all of this, they actively chose a course of action that inevitably led to where we are today. |  |
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:32 - Apr 19 with 1135 views | Herbivore |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:28 - Apr 19 by Lord_Lucan |
Yes I 100% do.
I think it was cringeworthy the way anyone who expressed an opinion of voting out was vilified and it still happens, not least on here.
It was childish and abusive and I think that a huge amount of people were swayed because of what they were reading and seeing.
In fact I would say that it was an absolutely massive thing. No one was listening!!!
What is it you hipsters say?
Own you're own sh1t Motherfeckers*
*I added Motherfeckers for dramatic affect and I also like saying it. |
Disagree. This is just you expressing that you found the attitude of some remainers distasteful. The idea that if they'd stayed quiet a bunch of leave voters would have actually voted remain seems rather fanciful.
The people who need to own their sh!t are the ones who voted for a pack of lies peddled by duplicitous motherfeckers. | |
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:36 - Apr 19 with 1124 views | noggin |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:28 - Apr 19 by Lord_Lucan |
Yes I 100% do.
I think it was cringeworthy the way anyone who expressed an opinion of voting out was vilified and it still happens, not least on here.
It was childish and abusive and I think that a huge amount of people were swayed because of what they were reading and seeing.
In fact I would say that it was an absolutely massive thing. No one was listening!!!
What is it you hipsters say?
Own you're own sh1t Motherfeckers*
*I added Motherfeckers for dramatic affect and I also like saying it. |
I wasn't trying to put anyone down, after all, Brexit doesn't affect me personally. It just seems to me that the majority of leave voters were sticking a middle finger up at something, they just didn't know what. |  |
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:36 - Apr 19 with 1119 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:29 - Apr 19 by Herbivore |
But Corbyn lacked the nous (and political will) to try to find a different outcome. There could be no GE without Labour's support and if they didn't want it to be a single issue GE based on Brexit then they needed to work to find some way to resolve the Brexit impasse with their colleagues in Parliament and then look to a GE that would be based on policy. Labour weren't bystanders in all of this, they actively chose a course of action that inevitably led to where we are today. |
Labour thought they were going to win is the long and the short of it.
Their advisors looked at all the output on the echo chamber that is Twitter which then pulled them further into a cycle of group think politics where anyone who challenged that from within the party was undermined, orstriciesd and hounded, so of the matched to war on battle bussed talking about giving everyone free internetinstead of listening to what their heartlands wanted. | |
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:39 - Apr 19 with 1109 views | noggin |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:36 - Apr 19 by BlueandTruesince82 |
Labour thought they were going to win is the long and the short of it.
Their advisors looked at all the output on the echo chamber that is Twitter which then pulled them further into a cycle of group think politics where anyone who challenged that from within the party was undermined, orstriciesd and hounded, so of the matched to war on battle bussed talking about giving everyone free internetinstead of listening to what their heartlands wanted. |
"Labour thought they were going to win is the long and the short of it."
Did they? | |
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:42 - Apr 19 with 1099 views | Herbivore |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:36 - Apr 19 by BlueandTruesince82 |
Labour thought they were going to win is the long and the short of it.
Their advisors looked at all the output on the echo chamber that is Twitter which then pulled them further into a cycle of group think politics where anyone who challenged that from within the party was undermined, orstriciesd and hounded, so of the matched to war on battle bussed talking about giving everyone free internetinstead of listening to what their heartlands wanted. |
It was so painfully obvious that they were going to lose though. Many remainers felt let down by their lack of a stance, leavers didn't trust them, and no matter how much the Corbynites pretend otherwise the 2019 GE at the time it was called was always going to be all about Brexit. | |
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:43 - Apr 19 with 1094 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:39 - Apr 19 by noggin |
"Labour thought they were going to win is the long and the short of it."
Did they? |
Well Corbyn and his advisers did yes and thats all that mattered for the aforementioned reasons above | |
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:43 - Apr 19 with 1092 views | Herbivore |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:36 - Apr 19 by noggin |
I wasn't trying to put anyone down, after all, Brexit doesn't affect me personally. It just seems to me that the majority of leave voters were sticking a middle finger up at something, they just didn't know what. |
They were sticking a middle finger up at the establishment, by voting for something being peddled by the privately educated career politicians Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage. | |
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:44 - Apr 19 with 1089 views | chicoazul |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:36 - Apr 19 by noggin |
I wasn't trying to put anyone down, after all, Brexit doesn't affect me personally. It just seems to me that the majority of leave voters were sticking a middle finger up at something, they just didn't know what. |
They were sticking their fingers up at 40 years of neoliberalism globalisation being told they were stupid and racist and seeing their jobs communities and lives destroyed. |  |
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:46 - Apr 19 with 1077 views | Herbivore |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:44 - Apr 19 by chicoazul |
They were sticking their fingers up at 40 years of neoliberalism globalisation being told they were stupid and racist and seeing their jobs communities and lives destroyed. |
And they did it by voting for the very people responsible for much of it. | |
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:47 - Apr 19 with 1063 views | Lord_Lucan |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:36 - Apr 19 by noggin |
I wasn't trying to put anyone down, after all, Brexit doesn't affect me personally. It just seems to me that the majority of leave voters were sticking a middle finger up at something, they just didn't know what. |
I know you wasn't really putting anyone down in your post - however Herbivore came along and done it anyway.
I don't really think he could have proved my point any better if I had paid him. [Post edited 19 Apr 2021 10:47]
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:47 - Apr 19 with 1061 views | noggin |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:44 - Apr 19 by chicoazul |
They were sticking their fingers up at 40 years of neoliberalism globalisation being told they were stupid and racist and seeing their jobs communities and lives destroyed. |
Wow! Were the EU telling the British people that they were stupid and racist? | |
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:47 - Apr 19 with 1059 views | GaryCooper |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 09:06 - Apr 19 by Herbivore |
Actually, Gary, that's not the case. I voted Labour under Corbyn but did not wholeheartedly support Corbyn. If you go back and read my posts in the lead up to the GE in 2019 you'll see my support of Corbyn was rather lukewarm at best. In fact I was often critical of him and his 'leadership'.
Here, for example, I say in the September before the election that I would "hold my nose and vote Labour" on the basis that they were the only party who could oust the Tory incumbent in my constituency:
https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/466830/page:1
It might benefit you to acquaint yourself with the facts from time to time. I know you see facts as being lefty nonsense that we shouldn't have to put up with, but they are rather useful to stop oneself looking foolish sometimes. [Post edited 19 Apr 2021 9:07]
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Apologies if I got that wrong. |  | | |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:48 - Apr 19 with 1047 views | chicoazul |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:46 - Apr 19 by Herbivore |
And they did it by voting for the very people responsible for much of it. |
Disagree. Cameron Blair Brown Major; all remainers. Garage JRM and the rest of them never had anything like that level of power. | |
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:49 - Apr 19 with 1033 views | chicoazul |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:47 - Apr 19 by noggin |
Wow! Were the EU telling the British people that they were stupid and racist? |
No of course not, but lots of tea miners were.
Edit; tea miners, lol. Remainers! [Post edited 19 Apr 2021 10:50]
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:51 - Apr 19 with 1027 views | Herbivore |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:47 - Apr 19 by Lord_Lucan |
I know you wasn't really putting anyone down in your post - however Herbivore came along and done it anyway.
I don't really think he could have proved my point any better if I had paid him. [Post edited 19 Apr 2021 10:47]
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You see what you want to see. | |
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:52 - Apr 19 with 1016 views | noggin |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:49 - Apr 19 by chicoazul |
No of course not, but lots of tea miners were.
Edit; tea miners, lol. Remainers! [Post edited 19 Apr 2021 10:50]
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What is a Tea Miner? | |
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:55 - Apr 19 with 1002 views | Herbivore |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:52 - Apr 19 by noggin |
What is a Tea Miner? |
Another one of the traditional industries shut down by Thatcher. | |
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 11:21 - Apr 19 with 964 views | Darth_Koont |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:52 - Apr 19 by noggin |
What is a Tea Miner? |
Yorkshire Tea, innit?
Grown on the sunny uplands of a Rotherham slag heap. |  |
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 11:23 - Apr 19 with 959 views | BlueForYou |
You're never going to win an election with Corbyn & Abbott involved. !! |  | | |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 11:29 - Apr 19 with 945 views | noggin |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 11:23 - Apr 19 by BlueForYou |
You're never going to win an election with Corbyn & Abbott involved. !! |
But Boris and Rees Mogg are acceptable? | |
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| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 11:30 - Apr 19 with 941 views | Herbivore |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 11:29 - Apr 19 by noggin |
But Boris and Rees Mogg are acceptable? |
Not to mention the state of Priti Patel. | |
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