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That notwithstanding, they'll link up with the Greens and proclaim a pro-Leave majority. Johnson will refuse and the issue will rumble on ad infinitum*.
* Unless they push ahead with a unilateral, advisory referendum and lose.
SNP fail to get a majority on 21:02 - May 8 by Guthrum
That notwithstanding, they'll link up with the Greens and proclaim a pro-Leave majority. Johnson will refuse and the issue will rumble on ad infinitum*.
* Unless they push ahead with a unilateral, advisory referendum and lose.
They will. But they still don't have a mandate. A vote for the SNP does what it says on the tin. It's a vote for another referendum. And had they got a majority then I'd have no issue with that.
However, although the Greens are pro another referendum, not all of their voters are. One of my daughters voted Green because she's a bit of a tree hugger. But she is very pro Union.
SNP fail to get a majority on 21:06 - May 8 by GlasgowBlue
They will. But they still don't have a mandate. A vote for the SNP does what it says on the tin. It's a vote for another referendum. And had they got a majority then I'd have no issue with that.
However, although the Greens are pro another referendum, not all of their voters are. One of my daughters voted Green because she's a bit of a tree hugger. But she is very pro Union.
There are people that vote Labour and are pro independence.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
SNP fail to get a majority on 21:25 - May 8 by XYZ
Let's get this straight - you're arguing that a scottish parliament, elected under PR, can't vote to hold a referendum?
That looks like a very weird view of democracy to me.
Desperate even.
Nevertheless, constitutionally accurate. The Scottish Parliament does not have the devolved right to call a binding referendum on independence unilaterally.
SNP fail to get a majority on 21:44 - May 8 by Guthrum
Nevertheless, constitutionally accurate. The Scottish Parliament does not have the devolved right to call a binding referendum on independence unilaterally.
That's not right - the scottish parliament can vote for one and then, I believe, it needs the consent of the UK parliament, although that's subject to legal debate.
The first step is the scottish parliament voting for it.
GB seems to be arguing that they can't do that because the SNP didn't get a majority of the popular vote - it's a matter for the elected parliament.
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SNP fail to get a majority on 22:47 - May 8 with 1825 views
SNP fail to get a majority on 21:33 - May 8 by Keno
Although you could argue that pro independence parties have a majority
And have had a majority for the last 4 years. Yet no referendum was called.
Instead, Sturgeon buoyed by positive polling showing she would comfortably get a majority, has spent the past couple of years saying that an SNP majority would be a mandate for a referendum.
She didn’t get that majority and hence has no mandate.
SNP fail to get a majority on 21:06 - May 8 by GlasgowBlue
They will. But they still don't have a mandate. A vote for the SNP does what it says on the tin. It's a vote for another referendum. And had they got a majority then I'd have no issue with that.
However, although the Greens are pro another referendum, not all of their voters are. One of my daughters voted Green because she's a bit of a tree hugger. But she is very pro Union.
SNP fail to get a majority on 21:06 - May 8 by GlasgowBlue
They will. But they still don't have a mandate. A vote for the SNP does what it says on the tin. It's a vote for another referendum. And had they got a majority then I'd have no issue with that.
However, although the Greens are pro another referendum, not all of their voters are. One of my daughters voted Green because she's a bit of a tree hugger. But she is very pro Union.
why are the unionists so afraid of a referendum if there's no majority for independence?
Glasgow, I am very sure you are not a dishonest person so I just think you are mistaken. It was clear all throughout this election that the threshold was for referendum supporting parties to combine for a majority. So the SNP and Greens will almost certainly move ahead with a vote in the Scottish parliament supporting a referendum and then dare the Tories to refuse. And support for the SNP will then soar through the roof when the Tories deny the democratic decision of a devolved parliament, which they certainly will do. She’s got ‘em where she wants ‘em.
Qu'est-ce que vous chantez? Nous chantons "Les Bleus, allez!"
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SNP fail to get a majority on 22:59 - May 8 with 1779 views
I don't really agree with the premise that winning a majority in the Scottish Parliament elections gives a mandate for a referendum. People are voting for the party they see fit to govern in Scotland. They are not explicitly saying them want to leave the Union.
You can't just keep having referendums until you get the result you want (as we know from the rejection of the People's Vote after Brexit) - it is not so easy to come back again as it would required the consent of the rest of the union. I think maybe each constituent country should have a referendum once every 25-30 years so roughly each generation gets one shot at it.
SNP fail to get a majority on 22:59 - May 8 by Trequartista
I don't really agree with the premise that winning a majority in the Scottish Parliament elections gives a mandate for a referendum. People are voting for the party they see fit to govern in Scotland. They are not explicitly saying them want to leave the Union.
You can't just keep having referendums until you get the result you want (as we know from the rejection of the People's Vote after Brexit) - it is not so easy to come back again as it would required the consent of the rest of the union. I think maybe each constituent country should have a referendum once every 25-30 years so roughly each generation gets one shot at it.
I agree that you can’t keep having referendums every couple of years on the same subject, but the fact that since the last one Brexit has happened against the will of the Scottish electorate makes a good case to have another one.
If I was Scottish, I’d vote not to be tied down by the lying Conservatives which is certainly what we have now.
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SNP fail to get a majority on 23:27 - May 8 with 1662 views
SNP fail to get a majority on 23:22 - May 8 by Tonytown
I agree that you can’t keep having referendums every couple of years on the same subject, but the fact that since the last one Brexit has happened against the will of the Scottish electorate makes a good case to have another one.
If I was Scottish, I’d vote not to be tied down by the lying Conservatives which is certainly what we have now.
The Brexit vote was taken by the UK. You can break it down into different demographics such as people in Scotland or 37-year-old carpenters in towns beginning with C, but there was no official Scottish vote. Brexit was a significant event, I agree, and i see the merit in that argument, but i'd stick to once for each generation in each of the constituent countries
Glasgow, I am very sure you are not a dishonest person so I just think you are mistaken. It was clear all throughout this election that the threshold was for referendum supporting parties to combine for a majority. So the SNP and Greens will almost certainly move ahead with a vote in the Scottish parliament supporting a referendum and then dare the Tories to refuse. And support for the SNP will then soar through the roof when the Tories deny the democratic decision of a devolved parliament, which they certainly will do. She’s got ‘em where she wants ‘em.
I don't disagree with your 2nd part, they'll probably drive the vote through anyway and see if Johnson blinks first. However, they're in the same position as they were in the last parliament (SNP minority propped up by the Greens) and didn't get another referendum.
SNP fail to get a majority on 23:27 - May 8 by Trequartista
The Brexit vote was taken by the UK. You can break it down into different demographics such as people in Scotland or 37-year-old carpenters in towns beginning with C, but there was no official Scottish vote. Brexit was a significant event, I agree, and i see the merit in that argument, but i'd stick to once for each generation in each of the constituent countries
As a general rule I would agree with you.
Brexit is a fundamental change to our way of life and I think it reasonable to allow another vote on independence as its likely that as an independent country Scotland would probably vote to join the EU.
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SNP fail to get a majority on 23:39 - May 8 with 1609 views
SNP fail to get a majority on 23:22 - May 8 by Tonytown
I agree that you can’t keep having referendums every couple of years on the same subject, but the fact that since the last one Brexit has happened against the will of the Scottish electorate makes a good case to have another one.
If I was Scottish, I’d vote not to be tied down by the lying Conservatives which is certainly what we have now.
I agree the Scots have been unfortunate with the Brexit vote going the other way but the irony is that the SNP's arguments for independence are literally the same as Vote Leave. Any economic forecasts are dismissed as scaremongering, they've got no plans on how to deal with the border and they're arguing that the EU should give them special conditions (their deficit is well above the limit allowed for member states) to let them in. And that's before you get to the increasingly large pockets of xenophobia in their support.
SNP fail to get a majority on 22:28 - May 8 by XYZ
That's not right - the scottish parliament can vote for one and then, I believe, it needs the consent of the UK parliament, although that's subject to legal debate.
The first step is the scottish parliament voting for it.
GB seems to be arguing that they can't do that because the SNP didn't get a majority of the popular vote - it's a matter for the elected parliament.
Not a binding one*. And it's not subject to debate - matters relating to the Union of the Kigdoms of Scotland and England were specifically reserved to the Westminster Parliament under the 1998 Act [Schedule 5 Section 1 Paragraph 1 (b)]. They are the only ones with the right to enact anything which affects the existence of thet Union.
* Actually, not really one at all with more validity than an opinion poll. It's outside their authority.
SNP fail to get a majority on 21:44 - May 8 by Guthrum
Nevertheless, constitutionally accurate. The Scottish Parliament does not have the devolved right to call a binding referendum on independence unilaterally.
The UK never had a binding referendum
The Tory government of 2019 had 43.6% The SNP has in 2021 47.6%
One claimed a mandate, the other is told it does not have mandate
However on the PR vote, which might suggest a more accurate picture the SNP has only 40.65 of the vote, but still claims a mandate
It should be noted that all of the above had a lower percentage of the vote than Remain in the referendum
As with Labours loss of Hartlepool, there will be little in the way of even the most basic of in depth analysis, as that is not what plays with voters. If it gets more complicated than a three word slogan, then a huge number are not interested.
So myths and misinformation become the fact.
Check the bleat, not 'fact' from brexiteers that the referendum was the biggest election in the UK It was not. 1992 GE 77.7% turn out 33,614,074 cast
2016 referendum 72.2% turnout 33,551,983
How much this particular lie, on its own, changes anything is a moot point, but when we have those at the very top blatantly and consistently lying then it is bound to have an effect
"On 15th November 2018 in Parliament the Prime Minister said that in the 2016 referendum ‘the British people exercised their vote in numbers we have never seen before"
"the July 2018 Chequers White Paper that the 2016 referendum was ‘the biggest democratic exercise in this country’s history’. Many Brexiters have made similar claims."
"Jacob Rees-Mogg said ‘17.4 million voted to leave — the largest amount of people ever to vote in the history of the UK’. "
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SNP fail to get a majority on 00:00 - May 9 with 1552 views
SNP fail to get a majority on 23:50 - May 8 by Guthrum
Not a binding one*. And it's not subject to debate - matters relating to the Union of the Kigdoms of Scotland and England were specifically reserved to the Westminster Parliament under the 1998 Act [Schedule 5 Section 1 Paragraph 1 (b)]. They are the only ones with the right to enact anything which affects the existence of thet Union.
* Actually, not really one at all with more validity than an opinion poll. It's outside their authority.
[Post edited 8 May 2021 23:53]
It is being debated - I agree with your interpretation, but denying it's being debated is not true. It's a matter of how the 1998 Act is interpreted by the Courts, which hasn't been tested.
I didn't say it was binding, I set out the process. The elected scottish parliament starts the process and GB seems to think that's not appropriate, which, to me, doesn't seem to be the position of a democrat.
Edit to respond to your edit;
The scottish parliament undoubtedly has the power to vote to send a request to the UK parliament. To send such a request without a vote of the scottish parliament would be invalid. If the UK parliament refuses the request I can't see anything undemocratic in them holding an advisory ref. themselves.
Such a referendum would, of course, be as valid as the 2016 EU ref, as it too was purely "advisory" and held no legal force. A "Yes" result in such a ref. would be as valid as the 2016 EU ref.
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