By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions. We in turn value your personal details in accordance with our Privacy Policy.
Please log in or register. Registered visitors get fewer ads.
I don't disagree with your 2nd part, they'll probably drive the vote through anyway and see if Johnson blinks first. However, they're in the same position as they were in the last parliament (SNP minority propped up by the Greens) and didn't get another referendum.
Brexit hadn’t happened when the last election took place.
It has now and I really cannot see a referendum being refused by Boris.
The Tories would be wiped out in Scotland and that would be a stick to beat them with for a long time.
The answer is to throw huge piles of money to Scotland for infrastructure improvements and link that to a no to independence vote
0
SNP fail to get a majority on 00:15 - May 9 with 777 views
SNP fail to get a majority on 00:04 - May 9 by Tonytown
Brexit hadn’t happened when the last election took place.
It has now and I really cannot see a referendum being refused by Boris.
The Tories would be wiped out in Scotland and that would be a stick to beat them with for a long time.
The answer is to throw huge piles of money to Scotland for infrastructure improvements and link that to a no to independence vote
I suspect the Barnett formula comes into play here - throwing "huge piles of money" at Scotland would require the same spaffing for the rest of the UK.
Still, another opportunity to enrich one's mates, even further, will probably appeal to Johnson, as long as he gets his cut of course.
1
SNP fail to get a majority on 00:19 - May 9 with 791 views
SNP fail to get a majority on 00:04 - May 9 by Tonytown
Brexit hadn’t happened when the last election took place.
It has now and I really cannot see a referendum being refused by Boris.
The Tories would be wiped out in Scotland and that would be a stick to beat them with for a long time.
The answer is to throw huge piles of money to Scotland for infrastructure improvements and link that to a no to independence vote
No they wouldn't be wiped out in Scotland. The reason they do so well is because of the constitutional debate - they're seen as the party of unionists which allows them to pick up tactical Labour and Lib Dem votes that they wouldn't be able to draw if the constitution wasn't the main issue.
SNP fail to get a majority on 00:00 - May 9 by XYZ
It is being debated - I agree with your interpretation, but denying it's being debated is not true. It's a matter of how the 1998 Act is interpreted by the Courts, which hasn't been tested.
I didn't say it was binding, I set out the process. The elected scottish parliament starts the process and GB seems to think that's not appropriate, which, to me, doesn't seem to be the position of a democrat.
Edit to respond to your edit;
The scottish parliament undoubtedly has the power to vote to send a request to the UK parliament. To send such a request without a vote of the scottish parliament would be invalid. If the UK parliament refuses the request I can't see anything undemocratic in them holding an advisory ref. themselves.
Such a referendum would, of course, be as valid as the 2016 EU ref, as it too was purely "advisory" and held no legal force. A "Yes" result in such a ref. would be as valid as the 2016 EU ref.
[Post edited 9 May 2021 0:10]
Not sure there is a lot to interpret, the wording is very specific.
Certainly the Scottish Parliament can request negotiations and/or a referendum. If there were a clear mandate (which there would have to be for such a motion to pass), then I don't think it would be particularly reasonable to refuse, given the markedly changed circumstances since 2014 (Brexit). But that is a different issue.
The UK government chose to regard the result of the 2016 Referendum on leaving the EU as binding, even tho it originally was not. They had the power to do so. The Scottish government cannot do the same with a unilateral advisory referendum on leaving the Union - they do not have that authority. The precedent is does not hold.
SNP fail to get a majority on 23:58 - May 8 by HARRY10
The UK never had a binding referendum
The Tory government of 2019 had 43.6% The SNP has in 2021 47.6%
One claimed a mandate, the other is told it does not have mandate
However on the PR vote, which might suggest a more accurate picture the SNP has only 40.65 of the vote, but still claims a mandate
It should be noted that all of the above had a lower percentage of the vote than Remain in the referendum
As with Labours loss of Hartlepool, there will be little in the way of even the most basic of in depth analysis, as that is not what plays with voters. If it gets more complicated than a three word slogan, then a huge number are not interested.
So myths and misinformation become the fact.
Check the bleat, not 'fact' from brexiteers that the referendum was the biggest election in the UK It was not. 1992 GE 77.7% turn out 33,614,074 cast
2016 referendum 72.2% turnout 33,551,983
How much this particular lie, on its own, changes anything is a moot point, but when we have those at the very top blatantly and consistently lying then it is bound to have an effect
"On 15th November 2018 in Parliament the Prime Minister said that in the 2016 referendum ‘the British people exercised their vote in numbers we have never seen before"
"the July 2018 Chequers White Paper that the 2016 referendum was ‘the biggest democratic exercise in this country’s history’. Many Brexiters have made similar claims."
"Jacob Rees-Mogg said ‘17.4 million voted to leave — the largest amount of people ever to vote in the history of the UK’. "
It's not about mandates (beyond who has formed a government under the rules in force at the time and is thus able to pass legislation), but about what the law allows. The Act which established the Scottish Parliament does not give it any authority over the Union between Scotland and England.
SNP fail to get a majority on 23:51 - May 8 by Darth_Koont
Only there is a pro-independence majority.
Stop lying all the time.
I didn’t say there wasn’t. But as TDS and I have already pointed out, there has been the same make up of ten Scottish partly for the last four years. There wasn’t a referendum. Sturgeon has been making a big play about how if the asanas git a majority it would be a mandate for a second referendum. She didn’t get that majority and the pro union vote was fractionally higher than those who voted for pro independence parties.
I thought you were all for every vote counting?
She can vote through a second referendum as with the greens they have a majority. But the UK govt has a much stronger case to say no than had the SNP won an outright majority.
SNP fail to get a majority on 00:50 - May 9 by Guthrum
It's not about mandates (beyond who has formed a government under the rules in force at the time and is thus able to pass legislation), but about what the law allows. The Act which established the Scottish Parliament does not give it any authority over the Union between Scotland and England.
And before law there is sentiment, battle or reason. When conflicts and issues appear to have reached a balance that gives an argument a mandate then an administration has a compulsion to introduce, amend or set aside laws. And then the law is promulgated.
Glasgow, I am very sure you are not a dishonest person so I just think you are mistaken. It was clear all throughout this election that the threshold was for referendum supporting parties to combine for a majority. So the SNP and Greens will almost certainly move ahead with a vote in the Scottish parliament supporting a referendum and then dare the Tories to refuse. And support for the SNP will then soar through the roof when the Tories deny the democratic decision of a devolved parliament, which they certainly will do. She’s got ‘em where she wants ‘em.
Sturgeon knows that’s he can legally hold an independence referendum. And you are correct. She is desperate for a Johnson to go to the a high Court to slap it down, and he would win legally., which will portray as the English Tories denying the will of the Scottish people (well 49% of the Scottish people. Let’s forget the 51% who voted for pro unionist parties).
But she still won’t be able to hold a referendum. It’s just another tactical move in the hope that in four years time there will be a hung parliament in the UK and she will be in a much stronger position to use another referendum as a bargaining chip in return for support.
Back to my op. Had she win a majority then she would have been unstoppable. But she was stopped. By 4000 Tories voting to return a Labour MSP who previously had a majority of 170 and 4000 Labour voters switching to the Tories to re elect a Tory MSP with a similar small majority who was under attack from the SNP.
Surely any denying of an indyref from Westminster is going to play perfectly into their hands, tipping the undecided 10% into pro leave, as SNP turn up the heat about being controlled by London. I just can’t see that resistance doing anything but drive the anti union agenda further.
The best thing the government could do is say OK, have a generational referendum on the subject, on the basis there won’t be another one for 30 years as they’re divisive & expensive. Get it in the diary for as soon as is possible, then go hard on a PR drive with how damaging it’ll be to Scotland, and the practicalities of it (eg military, healthcare etc).
SNP fail to get a majority on 07:56 - May 9 by GlasgowBlue
I didn’t say there wasn’t. But as TDS and I have already pointed out, there has been the same make up of ten Scottish partly for the last four years. There wasn’t a referendum. Sturgeon has been making a big play about how if the asanas git a majority it would be a mandate for a second referendum. She didn’t get that majority and the pro union vote was fractionally higher than those who voted for pro independence parties.
I thought you were all for every vote counting?
She can vote through a second referendum as with the greens they have a majority. But the UK govt has a much stronger case to say no than had the SNP won an outright majority.
They got the pro-independence majority. Now you’re saying that all the votes should be treated as a popular referendum despite it being a Scottish parliamentary election.
And since when does the UK government get the final say in an Independence question? Haha! They can go feck themselves.
Pronouns: He/Him
0
SNP fail to get a majority on 10:44 - May 9 with 593 views
Even if the snp push on with a referendum without uk govt approval, can't that be easily ruined by a campaign of non engagement by the unionists? The snp could win that with 100%, but it would be worthless if unionists weren't voting and said so.
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
SNP fail to get a majority on 10:16 - May 9 by Darth_Koont
They got the pro-independence majority. Now you’re saying that all the votes should be treated as a popular referendum despite it being a Scottish parliamentary election.
And since when does the UK government get the final say in an Independence question? Haha! They can go feck themselves.
“And since when does the UK get the final say in an independence question”?
Schedule 5, Part 1 of the Scotland Act says in black and white that the constitution is a "reserved matter". In other words, anything change to how the country is run, or who is in charge is a decision to be made by politicians from all parts of the United Kingdom who occupy the green benches in Parliament.
Besides. It’s was only going to be a once in a generation referendum. Nicola said so many times.
SNP fail to get a majority on 10:46 - May 9 by GlasgowBlue
“And since when does the UK get the final say in an independence question”?
Schedule 5, Part 1 of the Scotland Act says in black and white that the constitution is a "reserved matter". In other words, anything change to how the country is run, or who is in charge is a decision to be made by politicians from all parts of the United Kingdom who occupy the green benches in Parliament.
Besides. It’s was only going to be a once in a generation referendum. Nicola said so many times.
[Post edited 9 May 2021 10:49]
Leaving the EU is a material change in circumstances. There was always that proviso, as you well know.
I’d like to see that constitutional matter applied to Independence. In the UK courts but internationally as well. The UK government doesn’t have a leg to stand on.
Pronouns: He/Him
0
SNP fail to get a majority on 11:12 - May 9 with 528 views
SNP fail to get a majority on 00:50 - May 9 by Guthrum
It's not about mandates (beyond who has formed a government under the rules in force at the time and is thus able to pass legislation), but about what the law allows. The Act which established the Scottish Parliament does not give it any authority over the Union between Scotland and England.
err yes, that is a given
my point was that politicians claim a mandate anytime it suits their cause - much as many moons ago the stewards at an away game came over heavy at me, i told that I was not offending anyone and that I should stay, whereby remaining seating I began to 'sing'
'stand up if you want me thrown out, stand up.....'
"see they want me to stay....you can't go against what they want"
I should have said the will of the people. but this was before 2016. Now the obvious flaw in what I was saying will not have past anyone, but it is a similar ploy used by politicians.
My thought with Sturgeon is she knows the SNP will not win a referendum, but there is an awful lot of mileage (and votes) to be had by barging into one of your friends and demanding they hold you back, when a pub dispute is about to turn violent.
So call her bluff, and remove this nonsense once and for all (or a generation, at least)
0
SNP fail to get a majority on 11:52 - May 9 with 500 views
SNP fail to get a majority on 10:44 - May 9 by giant_stow
Even if the snp push on with a referendum without uk govt approval, can't that be easily ruined by a campaign of non engagement by the unionists? The snp could win that with 100%, but it would be worthless if unionists weren't voting and said so.
Much like the Catalan referendum, an unofficial referendum in Scotland will be boycotted and therefore a complete waste of time.
What amuses me is seeing a staunch anti Brexiter like Koonters advocating for independence despite not knowing what currency an independent Scotland would use, whether the EU would accept Scotland's application to join or what Scotland's trading relationship would be like with it's biggest trading partner which is the rest of the UK.
Every argument Sturgeon makes is identical to those made by the leave campaign minus the racism.
SNP fail to get a majority on 11:52 - May 9 by GlasgowBlue
Much like the Catalan referendum, an unofficial referendum in Scotland will be boycotted and therefore a complete waste of time.
What amuses me is seeing a staunch anti Brexiter like Koonters advocating for independence despite not knowing what currency an independent Scotland would use, whether the EU would accept Scotland's application to join or what Scotland's trading relationship would be like with it's biggest trading partner which is the rest of the UK.
Every argument Sturgeon makes is identical to those made by the leave campaign minus the racism.
[Post edited 9 May 2021 11:53]
You were pushing for Brexit, you daft sod!
That was/is a leap into the unknown for no perceived benefit. Scotland’s “leap into the unknown” is Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Ireland, Finland.
I’d say keep peddling the lies, smears and misrepresentations. But what other choice do you have?
Pronouns: He/Him
1
SNP fail to get a majority on 12:04 - May 9 with 481 views
SNP fail to get a majority on 11:52 - May 9 by GlasgowBlue
Much like the Catalan referendum, an unofficial referendum in Scotland will be boycotted and therefore a complete waste of time.
What amuses me is seeing a staunch anti Brexiter like Koonters advocating for independence despite not knowing what currency an independent Scotland would use, whether the EU would accept Scotland's application to join or what Scotland's trading relationship would be like with it's biggest trading partner which is the rest of the UK.
Every argument Sturgeon makes is identical to those made by the leave campaign minus the racism.
[Post edited 9 May 2021 11:53]
Yeah that trading relationship and most likely having a hard border with Scotland in the EU seems to almost be the biggest issue now. And does the EU even want to pick up Scotland's over-spend tab from England in any case?
Maybe some things are more important than money though and the Scots really would prefer an impoverished independence.
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
SNP fail to get a majority on 12:02 - May 9 by Darth_Koont
You were pushing for Brexit, you daft sod!
That was/is a leap into the unknown for no perceived benefit. Scotland’s “leap into the unknown” is Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Ireland, Finland.
I’d say keep peddling the lies, smears and misrepresentations. But what other choice do you have?
SNP fail to get a majority on 12:04 - May 9 by giant_stow
Yeah that trading relationship and most likely having a hard border with Scotland in the EU seems to almost be the biggest issue now. And does the EU even want to pick up Scotland's over-spend tab from England in any case?
Maybe some things are more important than money though and the Scots really would prefer an impoverished independence.
They probably want to take back control.
I’m not sure if we’ve heard that one before though
0
SNP fail to get a majority on 12:20 - May 9 with 445 views
SNP fail to get a majority on 12:13 - May 9 by BABLUE
They probably want to take back control.
I’m not sure if we’ve heard that one before though
Yes indeed. Don't get me wrong, I can see why snp bods would argue hard for another ref now. I just think they may be expecting the moon on a stick (if that joint letter a few weeks ago from various academics is anything to go by).
Personally, I'm coming round to the idea that Scottish independence may be a good thing for the poorer English regions. If we're no longer worrying about each other (thanks former Scotish labour voters), then lets look after our own too.
[Post edited 9 May 2021 12:21]
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
SNP fail to get a majority on 12:04 - May 9 by giant_stow
Yeah that trading relationship and most likely having a hard border with Scotland in the EU seems to almost be the biggest issue now. And does the EU even want to pick up Scotland's over-spend tab from England in any case?
Maybe some things are more important than money though and the Scots really would prefer an impoverished independence.
I don't like the dishonesty of not telling it like it is with regards the economics of Scottish independence or at best giving sugar coated ones. It's obviously for Scotland to decide and if they feel being independent and having better control is worth a short term economic hit, then all the power to them. I just think all decisions should be well informed.
However, given a lot of the people in Government criticising independence along these lines spent the last 5 years lying through their teeth about the economics of Brexit (and still are lying about it), I think their criticisms are more than a little hypocritical. Anyone who pushed for Brexit talking about economic benefits has zero credibility when talking about Scottish independence.