| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr 10:39 - May 14 with 20433 views | Vic |
Woolfie, KVY and Dobra that he doesn’t want them. It could well be that he’s sat them down and said ‘Here’s the deal Luke, I know I’ve been tough and said some harsh things, and I will be bringing in a whole batch of new players. But I’d like you to stay and be part of this, however, if after this season you want to go I will understand that and won’t stand in your way.’
I think that’s quite feasible and very different to saying he wants them out. I mean, it’s clear he rates them, and Norwood, so why would he bin them? I think there’s more to this than we think, and I wonder if we’ve got the wrong end of the stick. Clearly Watson and Warren know more than they are letting on at the moment. They are running the story in a way that generates clicks for their paper (it’s what they are paid for), but they said themselves in the podcast that there’s things they know but haven’t said. [Post edited 14 May 2021 10:41]
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| Not really.... on 16:40 - May 14 with 2215 views | StokieBlue |
| Not really.... on 16:36 - May 14 by clive_baker |
Maybe you're right. Garbutt got released after 12 years at Everton and his manager didn't even know his name. Very different of course, he wasn't a first team squad member who had played regularly all season.
I don't know, its just never nice seeing someone cut up and feeling shafted like that. As I said, perhaps it's the way of the world, maybe I'm old fashioned. I imagine if it was Mick or big Joe having these chats the players would've left agreeing with them! Maybe PC feels he needs to adopt this persona to generate some urgency among them to get their moves. Who knows. Give it a few years and it'll be a text message after the last game of the season. |
I certainly think that Cook is trying to move things on as swiftly as possible in order to get the players he wants and a full (perhaps longer than full) preseason with them so he can get them fit and playing how he wants.
As you say though, it doesn't need to be totally ruthless and I feel that a couple of these players will go on and do very well if they do move on. I would have kept Dozzell, Dobra and Wolfie. Downes seems to want to go so that's up to him and I think the time has come for Bishop to move on. I am now hoping a few of the U18's can make the step up so there will be some homegrown interest.
Some won't agree but it's going to be a summer of disagreements and surprises I think.
SB [Post edited 14 May 2021 16:41]
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| Not really.... on 16:41 - May 14 with 2210 views | hype313 |
| Not really.... on 16:36 - May 14 by clive_baker |
Maybe you're right. Garbutt got released after 12 years at Everton and his manager didn't even know his name. Very different of course, he wasn't a first team squad member who had played regularly all season.
I don't know, its just never nice seeing someone cut up and feeling shafted like that. As I said, perhaps it's the way of the world, maybe I'm old fashioned. I imagine if it was Mick or big Joe having these chats the players would've left agreeing with them! Maybe PC feels he needs to adopt this persona to generate some urgency among them to get their moves. Who knows. Give it a few years and it'll be a text message after the last game of the season. |
But no one batted an eyelid when Downes handed in a transfer request after 5 minutes of fame, yet when the shoes on the other foot suddenly the club and management lack class?
Can't square that one. |  |
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| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 16:42 - May 14 with 2206 views | Herbivore |
| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 16:39 - May 14 by hype313 |
Taking in the odd performance in isolation from 3 years ago is clutching at straws.
None of them have consistently been good enough or pushed us on despite all of us desperately wanting them to do so.
If you think I'm rewriting history then that's your prerogative, but I just don't think any of them have performed anywhere near the hype that fans have put on them.
Whilst I always want us to produce young quality players, it's in our DNA, I do think it can blinker a large proportion of our fanbases view when critiquing these guys. |
The odd performance in isolation? Blimey. Yeah, I do think you're rewriting history. I get the reasons why and you're far from alone in doing it, but let's leave it there. |  |
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| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 16:44 - May 14 with 2192 views | hype313 |
| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 16:42 - May 14 by Herbivore |
The odd performance in isolation? Blimey. Yeah, I do think you're rewriting history. I get the reasons why and you're far from alone in doing it, but let's leave it there. |
Fair enough, but pulling out Wolfies performances for Swindon in league two as a barometer of success is blinkered at best. | |
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| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 16:45 - May 14 with 2184 views | Herbivore |
| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 16:44 - May 14 by hype313 |
Fair enough, but pulling out Wolfies performances for Swindon in league two as a barometer of success is blinkered at best. |
Selective reading as well as selective memory it seems. [Post edited 14 May 2021 16:56]
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| Not really.... on 16:54 - May 14 with 2149 views | Hullblue |
| Not really.... on 14:29 - May 14 by franz_tyson |
If Dozzell is central to how we play - maybe that’s the reason. We haven’t played well.
It could simply be that Dozzell isn’t Cook’s type of player. Maybe wants someone more dynamic and physical in that position.
Dozzell can only play with a minder. He’s got to create more to justify his position in the team. If not, he’s a luxury player.
I’d love Dozzell to do well here, but I think he might be better of elsewhere. If he does go.... can you name one game where’s he run the show and changed the course of the game? |
Without turning this into another Dozzell thread, because Lord knows we've had enough of them...
I think he's changed the course of every game we've played this season, because if you look at our style of play before he established himself in the team, we were quite direct and crapped ourselves on the ball more often than not.
This season he's given us the composure and technical ability to play out from the back. And to have that transformative effect at his age is really rare. The fact the players in front of him couldn't turn that possession into goals is their own fault, imo.
Sounds like you're right and that's not enough for PC, but if we can sign a player who can do the above plus run and tackle, at league one level, then I'll be really impressed. That's basically a combination of Downes and Dozzell. |  |
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| Not really.... on 16:57 - May 14 with 2130 views | clive_baker |
| Not really.... on 16:41 - May 14 by hype313 |
But no one batted an eyelid when Downes handed in a transfer request after 5 minutes of fame, yet when the shoes on the other foot suddenly the club and management lack class?
Can't square that one. |
I seem to remember quite a lot of supporters felt let down by Downes for that at the time.
Also I'm not talking about Downes. Or are you suggesting that if 1 player acts out of turn, they should all be treated with distain? Feels a very odd approach. |  |
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| Not really.... on 17:00 - May 14 with 2106 views | Herbivore |
| Not really.... on 16:57 - May 14 by clive_baker |
I seem to remember quite a lot of supporters felt let down by Downes for that at the time.
Also I'm not talking about Downes. Or are you suggesting that if 1 player acts out of turn, they should all be treated with distain? Feels a very odd approach. |
Yes, there were several meltdowns on here when Downes asked to leave. Lots of selective memory going on at the minute. | |
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| Not really.... on 17:02 - May 14 with 2096 views | hype313 |
| Not really.... on 16:57 - May 14 by clive_baker |
I seem to remember quite a lot of supporters felt let down by Downes for that at the time.
Also I'm not talking about Downes. Or are you suggesting that if 1 player acts out of turn, they should all be treated with distain? Feels a very odd approach. |
No, what I'm saying is that this is a ruthless business, and yes in an ideal world Cook would have taken Chambers and Skuse for a slap up meal at Milsoms to chew the fat over a Tomohawk, but he's in a role that is demanding and he will be under huge pressure, he doesn't have time for sentimentality regardless of how we feel.
Is it distain though? or is this just business? | |
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| Not really.... on 17:08 - May 14 with 2066 views | clive_baker |
| Not really.... on 17:02 - May 14 by hype313 |
No, what I'm saying is that this is a ruthless business, and yes in an ideal world Cook would have taken Chambers and Skuse for a slap up meal at Milsoms to chew the fat over a Tomohawk, but he's in a role that is demanding and he will be under huge pressure, he doesn't have time for sentimentality regardless of how we feel.
Is it distain though? or is this just business? |
There's a big middle ground in the spectrum of slap up meal to slap in the face. | |
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| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 17:09 - May 14 with 2066 views | NthQldITFC |
| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 16:01 - May 14 by blueislander |
Well said Joe. Of course we don’t know exactly what Cook said to the players, nor the way he phrased it. But it does sound pretty brutal. There are bound to be some players still at the club when pre-season starts. One wonders what their attitude willl be, Will they stand any chance of proving their worth? |
I'm uncomfortable with the brutal manner in which this has reportedly been done, and I do trust the multiple descriptions given on here by those with close connections.
However, if there are players who are still here pre-season, and if they have the mental fortitude to motivate themselves to perform very well pre-season in practice games and friendlies, consistently, and crucially without showing any trace of bad body language or other negative attitudes, then I suspect they may well do enough to cause Cook to reconsider them. They need to prove man enough to take the insult to their pride now, and reset themselves and their careers for the new season, with no trace remaining of the poison which seems to have built up at this club in the last few years. But I doubt there will be more than two or three who can fit those criteria, those who can will effectively be new players. Those who can't are all to some extent victims of their careers developing at a club with long-term problems, but the club has to come first now. |  |
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| Not really.... on 17:11 - May 14 with 2052 views | NthQldITFC |
| Not really.... on 17:08 - May 14 by clive_baker |
There's a big middle ground in the spectrum of slap up meal to slap in the face. |
Where does a bit of slap and tickle fit within that spectrum? | |
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| Not really.... on 17:19 - May 14 with 2029 views | Herbivore |
| Not really.... on 17:08 - May 14 by clive_baker |
There's a big middle ground in the spectrum of slap up meal to slap in the face. |
Indeed. Everything has become so binary on here. It's a bit weird. | |
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| Not really.... on 17:20 - May 14 with 2025 views | hype313 |
| Not really.... on 17:08 - May 14 by clive_baker |
There's a big middle ground in the spectrum of slap up meal to slap in the face. |
Little Chef? | |
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| Not really.... on 17:21 - May 14 with 2022 views | pointofblue |
| Not really.... on 17:19 - May 14 by Herbivore |
Indeed. Everything has become so binary on here. It's a bit weird. |
Players = good-for-nothing
Cook = saint
Remember that and you’ll go far. |  |
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| Yep, trust me Dolly..... on 17:43 - May 14 with 1989 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Yep, trust me Dolly..... on 16:26 - May 14 by Herbivore |
No, I believe you. I just think it's a bit of a ridiculous threshold for what would make you believe it. The posters on here sharing what they've been told aren't def info bullsh!t merchants or newbies chancing their arm.
There's a big grey area between believing everything you read on the Internet and only believing something if it's in print in news media. It's in that grey area that you need to use your critical faculties and weigh up the credibility of what is being said and who is saying it. |
Mate, you're fully entitled to believe whatever you want to believe but you can't force me to believe something! I believe Cook had a short meeting with each player, I find it harder to believe he was an arsehole about it as some are suggesting. Just why would he? It makes no sense. Being respectful and with good manners costs nothing and being a dick about it wouldn't gain anything.
I'm not saying people are lying but I suspect things have become exaggerated as they story's been passed on. I might be wrong, I'm just weighing up what seems most likely. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Yep, trust me Dolly..... on 17:46 - May 14 with 1983 views | Herbivore |
| Yep, trust me Dolly..... on 17:43 - May 14 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Mate, you're fully entitled to believe whatever you want to believe but you can't force me to believe something! I believe Cook had a short meeting with each player, I find it harder to believe he was an arsehole about it as some are suggesting. Just why would he? It makes no sense. Being respectful and with good manners costs nothing and being a dick about it wouldn't gain anything.
I'm not saying people are lying but I suspect things have become exaggerated as they story's been passed on. I might be wrong, I'm just weighing up what seems most likely. |
Given some of the things Cook has said about the players publicly I don't find it that hard to believe that he was a dick about telling them they're leaving in private. I take your point of course but when someone has self-styled themselves as 'Demolition Man' I don't really see it as a huge stretch to think that they weren't especially tactful in showing people the door. | |
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| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 17:54 - May 14 with 1970 views | blueislander |
| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 16:39 - May 14 by hype313 |
Taking in the odd performance in isolation from 3 years ago is clutching at straws.
None of them have consistently been good enough or pushed us on despite all of us desperately wanting them to do so.
If you think I'm rewriting history then that's your prerogative, but I just don't think any of them have performed anywhere near the hype that fans have put on them.
Whilst I always want us to produce young quality players, it's in our DNA, I do think it can blinker a large proportion of our fanbases view when critiquing these guys. |
You have dialed down quite a bit from “dire for three years” | | | |
| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 17:58 - May 14 with 1960 views | hype313 |
| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 17:54 - May 14 by blueislander |
You have dialed down quite a bit from “dire for three years” |
Yeah Herbie put me in my place. | |
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| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 18:05 - May 14 with 1944 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 16:32 - May 14 by Herbivore |
Three years ago Downes was looking capable in the Championship even as we were relegated. Woolfenden was doing well at Swindon. Dozzell was scoring against Leeds. Dobra was getting his first pube.
Since then Downes and Woolfenden have had a season of playing well in League 1 - leading to interest from the Prem - and then an indifferent season this time around. Hardly dire for three years. In fact I don't see how you could say any of this crop of academy graduates has been dire for 3 years. Dobra and Dozzell haven't even featured all that regularly prior to this season and have hardly been dire when they have.
I said yesterday that some are so desperate for change and for this to all work out well that they're rewriting history to justify every decision taken. That seems to be the case here as well. It's possible to both want change and be sceptical about some of the decisions being taken. |
Last few years player of the year awards;
Bartosz Białkowski
Bartosz Białkowski
Bartosz Białkowski
Luke Chambers
Not awarded
James Wilson
Nothing for these young players you rave about, and I really don't remember any games in the last 2 or 3 season where any of them put in Man Of The Match performances. And this is at League 1 level where you'd think they ought to shine.
Maybe you (and I'm guilty of this too) have been overrating these players because they're young academy products. Cook has come in with fresh eyes and no attachment to these players... and decided they're not good enough.
Maybe he's right. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 18:14 - May 14 with 1937 views | Herbivore |
| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 18:05 - May 14 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Last few years player of the year awards;
Bartosz Białkowski
Bartosz Białkowski
Bartosz Białkowski
Luke Chambers
Not awarded
James Wilson
Nothing for these young players you rave about, and I really don't remember any games in the last 2 or 3 season where any of them put in Man Of The Match performances. And this is at League 1 level where you'd think they ought to shine.
Maybe you (and I'm guilty of this too) have been overrating these players because they're young academy products. Cook has come in with fresh eyes and no attachment to these players... and decided they're not good enough.
Maybe he's right. |
"I really don't remember any games in the last 2 or 3 season where any of them put in Man Of The Match performances". Wow. This is the kind of revisionism I'm talking about. It's really quite staggering to be honest.
I'm also not sure how Bart being player of the season 5 years ago when these players were playing youth football is really relevant either, but there we go. | |
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| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 18:17 - May 14 with 1919 views | gordon |
| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 18:14 - May 14 by Herbivore |
"I really don't remember any games in the last 2 or 3 season where any of them put in Man Of The Match performances". Wow. This is the kind of revisionism I'm talking about. It's really quite staggering to be honest.
I'm also not sure how Bart being player of the season 5 years ago when these players were playing youth football is really relevant either, but there we go. |
Dobra for example has been the ITFC man of the match (according to TWTD) for the last two matches, and has 4 in total this season. |  | | |
| Not really.... on 18:19 - May 14 with 1906 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Not really.... on 17:21 - May 14 by pointofblue |
Players = good-for-nothing
Cook = saint
Remember that and you’ll go far. |
LOL. You reply with that to Herbs saying everything has become so binary on here without a hint of irony! | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 18:20 - May 14 with 1897 views | Herbivore |
| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 18:17 - May 14 by gordon |
Dobra for example has been the ITFC man of the match (according to TWTD) for the last two matches, and has 4 in total this season. |
Downes, Dozzell, and Bishop have all been MOM at times this season too. Downes and Woolfenden were very good for most of last season and would have been MOM several times between them. It's just pure revisionism. | |
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| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 18:25 - May 14 with 1876 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Maybe Cook hasn’t told the like of Downes, Dozzell Jr on 18:14 - May 14 by Herbivore |
"I really don't remember any games in the last 2 or 3 season where any of them put in Man Of The Match performances". Wow. This is the kind of revisionism I'm talking about. It's really quite staggering to be honest.
I'm also not sure how Bart being player of the season 5 years ago when these players were playing youth football is really relevant either, but there we go. |
I just copied and pasted a list of the last few years. The point being no academy products have been stars for a while.
"Wow. This is the kind of revisionism I'm talking about. It's really quite staggering to be honest."
Fine. Feel free to tell me which games these players have been head and shoulders above anyone else in. This is when we went a long time without being able to beat anyone in the top 6 of League 1.
Instead of blowing smoke out of your ears, let's have some examples. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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