| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer 14:05 - May 16 with 4085 views | Darth_Koont |
As Labour slides into irrelevance and the Greens seem to be emerging as the third party in England & Wales, he’d be an utter fool not to build an alliance of some description. Let alone that the environment is the single most important challenge we face and where petty party allegiances and factional ambitions should go out the window.
So, of course, he won’t take it.
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 20:46 - May 16 with 1161 views | EdwardStone |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 20:35 - May 16 by lightuser |
Yes, this is what I find incredibly frustrating.
The Greens, Greenpeace etc have the resouces to do this, but aren't.
And as for XR, stop blocking airports, start blocking abbatoirs and meat farms (that would really get the Gammon's (geddit) steaming!).
Basically, SHOW THE FECKING DATA, EDUCATE...
Also, J2. I personally don't wish to have an living animal killed solely for my eating pleasure. For humans there is no nutritional reason to eat meat. Our bodies aren't even designed for it eg teeth, length of gut etc. |
I'm trying to build a bridge here....
If FGR make it into Lg 1 next season...and we are allowed to visit New Lawn
I shall buy you, J2, Jeera and anyone else who wishes a genuine Dale Vince flavoured vegan burger at half time
I'll be the ethical equivalent of the Milky Bar Kid....except without the blond hair and small round spectacles
I shall shout...."Plant Burgers are on Meeeeeee"
As an aside....you ain't wrong
But you have a charming insolence |  | | |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 20:49 - May 16 with 1152 views | lowhouseblue |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 19:54 - May 16 by J2BLUE |
I'd love to see more education on how much difference it actually makes to choose a vegan option. Some of the numbers are staggering in terms of CO2 and water. I'm sure many people think it won't make any difference if they cut down but the numbers really hit home. |
vegan and cutting down are very different. people need to eat a lot less animal products - and it will have a big effect. but the all or nothing approach of veganism muddies that discussion and causes lots of people not to engage with the issue. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 21:05 - May 16 with 1119 views | EdwardStone |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 20:26 - May 16 by jeera |
Agree myself.
No beef with lightuser at all, who I often find myself in agreement with, but am bewildered by his post here.
I knew Greenpeace members who were up on the roof of Sizewell back in the 80s/90s.
Out on the streets preaching heavily on the negative influence of plastics on the environment, the over consumption of meat.
Lobbying local and central government.
There were court cases and large fines meted out to members who made a constant nuisance of themselves to highlight GM crops...
Much of the movement we see now towards change is because of them. |
Have an uppie for use of "No Beef"
Slightly inappropriate in this context, no?
But bloody funny | | | |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 21:28 - May 16 with 1092 views | BABLUE |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 15:34 - May 16 by GlasgowBlue |
You mean the guff that she put India on the red list on April 19. The same day Johnson did? That guff? |
And Tory Boy is back again |  | | |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 21:30 - May 16 with 1089 views | lightuser |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 20:26 - May 16 by jeera |
Agree myself.
No beef with lightuser at all, who I often find myself in agreement with, but am bewildered by his post here.
I knew Greenpeace members who were up on the roof of Sizewell back in the 80s/90s.
Out on the streets preaching heavily on the negative influence of plastics on the environment, the over consumption of meat.
Lobbying local and central government.
There were court cases and large fines meted out to members who made a constant nuisance of themselves to highlight GM crops...
Much of the movement we see now towards change is because of them. |
Hi Jeera,
I don't disagree with regards to your friends efforts towards what was then known about environmental issues. Great work for those times.
But this is 2021 and I'm still not hearing much from the Green's etc about the biggest issue, meat consumption. Not eating meat has a massive impact on our carbon footprint, pollution water usage, land use etc.
For example, look at the Green's policies and objectives. There's almost nothing about one of the biggest causes of environmental damage/carbon emissions. Talking about "healthy and sustainable food", mentioning cutting out sugars, certain fats from school meals without mentioning meat which is neither healthy, sustainable or necessary to a humans diet is deliberately avoiding the issue.
I've also had another look at Greenpeace. They are working against fossil fuels and "Industrial agriculture". Unfortunately, industrial agriculture seems to be anti the destruction of habitats for palm oil manufacture, not the more prevalent destruction for meat farming?
I'm just really stuggling to find the data and the plans and actions for "culling" the meat industry which is the biggest and most unnecessary environmental polluter? Not these other small issues.
Edited to add that I'm sorry, didn't mean to suggest fossil fuels and plastics aren't a massive issue too. [Post edited 16 May 2021 21:43]
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 21:32 - May 16 with 1084 views | lightuser |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 21:05 - May 16 by EdwardStone |
Have an uppie for use of "No Beef"
Slightly inappropriate in this context, no?
But bloody funny |
Lol. Missed that. Well done that man. | | | |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 21:38 - May 16 with 1067 views | lightuser |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 20:49 - May 16 by lowhouseblue |
vegan and cutting down are very different. people need to eat a lot less animal products - and it will have a big effect. but the all or nothing approach of veganism muddies that discussion and causes lots of people not to engage with the issue. |
Yeah, I understand the reluctance.
That why we should be hearing a lot more education about this.
It's literally jaw dropping when you see the data. | | | |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 21:39 - May 16 with 1058 views | WeWereZombies |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 21:30 - May 16 by lightuser |
Hi Jeera,
I don't disagree with regards to your friends efforts towards what was then known about environmental issues. Great work for those times.
But this is 2021 and I'm still not hearing much from the Green's etc about the biggest issue, meat consumption. Not eating meat has a massive impact on our carbon footprint, pollution water usage, land use etc.
For example, look at the Green's policies and objectives. There's almost nothing about one of the biggest causes of environmental damage/carbon emissions. Talking about "healthy and sustainable food", mentioning cutting out sugars, certain fats from school meals without mentioning meat which is neither healthy, sustainable or necessary to a humans diet is deliberately avoiding the issue.
I've also had another look at Greenpeace. They are working against fossil fuels and "Industrial agriculture". Unfortunately, industrial agriculture seems to be anti the destruction of habitats for palm oil manufacture, not the more prevalent destruction for meat farming?
I'm just really stuggling to find the data and the plans and actions for "culling" the meat industry which is the biggest and most unnecessary environmental polluter? Not these other small issues.
Edited to add that I'm sorry, didn't mean to suggest fossil fuels and plastics aren't a massive issue too. [Post edited 16 May 2021 21:43]
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An election or so ago the Green Party candidate on the island I live on was the only candidate in local elections to propose the building of an abattoir on the island to save crofters the trouble and expense of having to send sheep and cattle one hundred and twenty miles to Inverness for slaughter. But she didn't win a seat... |  |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 20:47 - May 17 with 943 views | tractordownsouth |
I think this might kill off the prospect, if it was even on the table anyway. The Tories have just teamed up with Green and Eco-Socialist independent councillors to kick Labour out of power on Lancaster City Council. The Eco-Socialist independents are formally Labour councillors who left because Starmer was too right wing for them, but they're now jumping into bed with the Tories. Work that one out...
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 21:15 - May 17 with 923 views | Darth_Koont |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 20:47 - May 17 by tractordownsouth |
I think this might kill off the prospect, if it was even on the table anyway. The Tories have just teamed up with Green and Eco-Socialist independent councillors to kick Labour out of power on Lancaster City Council. The Eco-Socialist independents are formally Labour councillors who left because Starmer was too right wing for them, but they're now jumping into bed with the Tories. Work that one out...
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They’ve got a choice of working with right-wingers with government support. Or right-wingers with zero support.
I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again. The current incarnation of Labour have been outflanked on every major issue because they don’t know what they stand for*. Environment, the economy, tax, the union, minority rights, workers’ rights, electoral reform. Whatever issue you want to mention Labour aren’t leading it, not even close.
They’re done. Unless, as I said in my OP, they look outside for help. Or they look to local areas Like Preston, Wales and Burnham’s mayorship where the national “leadership” hasn’t got in the way.
*Actually, I do know what they stand for and it’s power, influence and money. Political representation is just the industry they’re looking to capitalise on. | |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 21:35 - May 17 with 911 views | tractordownsouth |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 21:15 - May 17 by Darth_Koont |
They’ve got a choice of working with right-wingers with government support. Or right-wingers with zero support.
I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again. The current incarnation of Labour have been outflanked on every major issue because they don’t know what they stand for*. Environment, the economy, tax, the union, minority rights, workers’ rights, electoral reform. Whatever issue you want to mention Labour aren’t leading it, not even close.
They’re done. Unless, as I said in my OP, they look outside for help. Or they look to local areas Like Preston, Wales and Burnham’s mayorship where the national “leadership” hasn’t got in the way.
*Actually, I do know what they stand for and it’s power, influence and money. Political representation is just the industry they’re looking to capitalise on. |
This “they’re all the same” false narrative ironically contributes to the apathy you rightfully highlight. Pretending a centre-left leader is too right wing and then jumping in bed with right wingers makes no sense at all.
As for Burnham, his latest musings are clearly designed to win over the soft left in order to get the leadership. His work on homelessness has been great and would translate to a national manifesto but other areas of his policy platform (such as nationalising buses) will be moderated if he becomes leader of UK Labour. It’s one thing being mayor of a left wing city and another being the leader of a country which is broadly centrist. I think you’ll be disappointed in him if he gets the leadership. | |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 22:01 - May 17 with 882 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 20:47 - May 17 by tractordownsouth |
I think this might kill off the prospect, if it was even on the table anyway. The Tories have just teamed up with Green and Eco-Socialist independent councillors to kick Labour out of power on Lancaster City Council. The Eco-Socialist independents are formally Labour councillors who left because Starmer was too right wing for them, but they're now jumping into bed with the Tories. Work that one out...
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It looks a bit more complicated than that.
The diagram is the result of a vote on the new council leader, not any form of coalition. The winner is a member of the Greens, who will be running the council in coalition with the Eco-Socialists (with the Tories not involved).
I'm guessing this is a result of a disagreement between the Greens/Ecosocialists and Labour over which party/bloc got the leadership (as the two are roughly the same size and Labour probably demanded the leadership as the largest single party), resulting in a straight vote between the two, which the Tories took as an opportunity to embarrass Labour. [Post edited 17 May 2021 22:02]
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 22:40 - May 17 with 860 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 22:01 - May 17 by Clapham_Junction |
It looks a bit more complicated than that.
The diagram is the result of a vote on the new council leader, not any form of coalition. The winner is a member of the Greens, who will be running the council in coalition with the Eco-Socialists (with the Tories not involved).
I'm guessing this is a result of a disagreement between the Greens/Ecosocialists and Labour over which party/bloc got the leadership (as the two are roughly the same size and Labour probably demanded the leadership as the largest single party), resulting in a straight vote between the two, which the Tories took as an opportunity to embarrass Labour. [Post edited 17 May 2021 22:02]
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On the plus side....eco socialists in Lancaster...might be time for a move! |  |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 22:49 - May 17 with 851 views | Darth_Koont |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 21:35 - May 17 by tractordownsouth |
This “they’re all the same” false narrative ironically contributes to the apathy you rightfully highlight. Pretending a centre-left leader is too right wing and then jumping in bed with right wingers makes no sense at all.
As for Burnham, his latest musings are clearly designed to win over the soft left in order to get the leadership. His work on homelessness has been great and would translate to a national manifesto but other areas of his policy platform (such as nationalising buses) will be moderated if he becomes leader of UK Labour. It’s one thing being mayor of a left wing city and another being the leader of a country which is broadly centrist. I think you’ll be disappointed in him if he gets the leadership. |
It’s really not a narrative. Think who and what you’re supporting in Labour HQ and ask yourself what’s the difference between them and ChangeUK or even the Tories.
They’re grifters and opportunists. | |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 10:05 - May 18 with 768 views | tractordownsouth |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 22:01 - May 17 by Clapham_Junction |
It looks a bit more complicated than that.
The diagram is the result of a vote on the new council leader, not any form of coalition. The winner is a member of the Greens, who will be running the council in coalition with the Eco-Socialists (with the Tories not involved).
I'm guessing this is a result of a disagreement between the Greens/Ecosocialists and Labour over which party/bloc got the leadership (as the two are roughly the same size and Labour probably demanded the leadership as the largest single party), resulting in a straight vote between the two, which the Tories took as an opportunity to embarrass Labour. [Post edited 17 May 2021 22:02]
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A similar thing happened in the Senedd in 2016. Leanne Wood and Plaid Cymru made a deal with the Tories and UKIP to try and get Wood to become FM. Of course it failed and she’s now doing the same thing of slagging off Labour for not being socialist enough and for apparently being too friendly with the Tories. Irony overload.
The London Assembly thing was a bit different because it has no leader (its role is to scrutinise Khan) whereas a council does.. Still not a good look to pine for a progressive alliance and then kick the other progressive party out of power by using Tory votes. Ideal scenario would’ve been some sort of alliance between Labour and Greens - I’m sure both sides are to blame for that not coming to pass but without a formal coalition it’s not particularly democratic for the leader of a party with 10 seats to win a position of power over another with 16, especially as those eco-socialists were elected as Labour councillors. | |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 10:09 - May 18 with 756 views | tractordownsouth |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 22:49 - May 17 by Darth_Koont |
It’s really not a narrative. Think who and what you’re supporting in Labour HQ and ask yourself what’s the difference between them and ChangeUK or even the Tories.
They’re grifters and opportunists. |
If Labour had voted against Free School Meals, supported the Internal Market Act, backed the NHS real-terms pay cut/ migrant surcharge, wanted the sentences for damaging statues to be higher than the minimum for rape and dished a load of money out to their mates then I’d agree with you. But the Tories argued for them and Labour didn’t - there’s a world of difference. | |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 10:27 - May 18 with 736 views | Darth_Koont |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 10:09 - May 18 by tractordownsouth |
If Labour had voted against Free School Meals, supported the Internal Market Act, backed the NHS real-terms pay cut/ migrant surcharge, wanted the sentences for damaging statues to be higher than the minimum for rape and dished a load of money out to their mates then I’d agree with you. But the Tories argued for them and Labour didn’t - there’s a world of difference. |
Tweaks and twitches. This is small stuff (what was Labour’s proposed pay-rise for the NHS?) and still about showing they’re not a threat to establishment interests.
Meanwhile they’ve ushered through all manner of legislation like the SpyCops bill and a hard Brexit. And even fought against a rise in corporation tax!!!
In real, practical terms there’s next to no clear water between them. Certainly when it comes to showing another direction of travel or reversing the existing one. | |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 11:20 - May 18 with 705 views | tractordownsouth |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 10:27 - May 18 by Darth_Koont |
Tweaks and twitches. This is small stuff (what was Labour’s proposed pay-rise for the NHS?) and still about showing they’re not a threat to establishment interests.
Meanwhile they’ve ushered through all manner of legislation like the SpyCops bill and a hard Brexit. And even fought against a rise in corporation tax!!!
In real, practical terms there’s next to no clear water between them. Certainly when it comes to showing another direction of travel or reversing the existing one. |
Wait, so good stuff is “tweaks and twitches” but bad stuff is terrible? For what it’s worth I agree it would’ve been wise to put an exact figure on the pay rise too, but as for Brexit - the option was hard Brexit or no deal. The supposedly progressive SNP chose the latter - they were willing to risk the even more jobs just for the sake of a bit of posturing - that’s the very opposite of patriotism and showed the same uncompromising and ridiculous attitude as Rees-Mogg on the other side of the debate. | |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 11:53 - May 18 with 681 views | Darth_Koont |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 11:20 - May 18 by tractordownsouth |
Wait, so good stuff is “tweaks and twitches” but bad stuff is terrible? For what it’s worth I agree it would’ve been wise to put an exact figure on the pay rise too, but as for Brexit - the option was hard Brexit or no deal. The supposedly progressive SNP chose the latter - they were willing to risk the even more jobs just for the sake of a bit of posturing - that’s the very opposite of patriotism and showed the same uncompromising and ridiculous attitude as Rees-Mogg on the other side of the debate. |
No. But ultimately it’s small and reactive stuff that they’re reluctant to take a lead on. The NHS and Free School Meals were open goals but others still led the way.
I see nothing. No principles, values or vision. Just trying to triangulate their way around the centre-right.
We deserve better opposition and representation than these aimless clowns. They’re not even competent or electable which was the biggest lie/self-deception of all. | |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 11:59 - May 18 with 672 views | ElephantintheRoom |
The time for an alliance amongst the opposition parties was when they held the majoirity in parliament. The delusional misfits in charge of Labour and the lib Dems at the time let that huge and glaring opportunity slip through their fingers.
If Labour have to form an alliance with a party not quite capable of filling a tandem under the current electoral system they really are struggling. The real problem is blindingly obvious - by being cynical, the Tories stole the UKIP vote that was distorting Labour's support. Now every right wing nutter votes tory happy because of the oven ready Brexit and bashing immigrants. IF the tories make good on their bribery and become the unaccountable spend, spend, spend party - then Labour have no way back unless they begin to focus on what voters 'want' - and that is difficult in a party hamstrung by conference which doesnt really care about voters or the country, | |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 13:15 - May 18 with 637 views | Darth_Koont |
In other performative and empty news, it seems Starmer is going to do a fly-on-the-wall documentary about life as a leader ...
Suggested title: Through the Keirhole | |
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