| So my friend is trying to persuade... 16:47 - Jul 1 with 5881 views | Fixed_It |
...her daughter not to get jabbed due to 'the vaccine not being tested properly'. Her son is ignoring the advice because he wants to go partying abroad, but the daughter isn't getting jabbed because of the 'risk to fertility'. Clearly, this is twaddle. What are the social and moral arguments in favour of youngsters (early 20s in this case) getting jabbed? |  |
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| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 20:18 - Jul 1 with 1806 views | Tampa_Florida_Blue |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 17:00 - Jul 1 by Fixed_It |
Sh1t - she's turned into a bloke! Was that on the list of side-effects?! |
I have have heard that some females can turn into and get a twin sister to. |  | | |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 20:32 - Jul 1 with 1798 views | bazza |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 16:52 - Jul 1 by Fixed_It |
Devil's advocate - but do we know how it will affect fertility or foetuses? |
That is the problem, no one knows the long term effects, doesn’t matter how many people
Have had it, but As we live in an age where people Live to over 100, and with cures for loads of things that 100 Years ago would have killed you , I will Take the advice and continue to place my trust in that of the scientist and doctors. |  | | |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 21:55 - Jul 1 with 1758 views | GeoffSentence |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 16:52 - Jul 1 by Fixed_It |
Devil's advocate - but do we know how it will affect fertility or foetuses? |
Actually there are reasons to be concerned about fertility. Anecdotally, almost none of the first tranche of people to get vaccinated have become pregnant. |  |
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| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 22:00 - Jul 1 with 1744 views | nodge_blue |
Covid isn't going away. You will come into contact with it at some stage. When you do, would you rather me immunised or just take your chances? |  |
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| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 22:26 - Jul 1 with 1715 views | MerseyBlue |
I'm certainly not an anti-vaxer but was apprehensive about having the vaccine because of the pace at which things have moved. I think I'm right in saying that much of the work in preparing the vaccine was done long ago, it is the refinement of the vaccine to deal with covid specifically that has been undertaken in a short time. I'm not a man of science, I have to rely on the advice that the scientists and health service give. The long-term effects are unknown, but being that vaccinations are pretty well understood by the scientific community, I suspect there are none.
I wonder if part of the hang up for a lot of people comes from the horror stories around vastly different medicines such as thalidomide. With that lack of public understanding of the complexities of medicine, as well as a landscape of fake news filling social media, I can understand some of the anxieties around it, particularly for someone who is pregnant.
If I've got anything about the science wrong, please advise and I'll amend as wouldn't want to misrepresent the development of the vaccine. I quite quickly decided that my concerns were born out of a lack of understanding of the science, rather than any real dangers. In the end, it's simply the right thing to do. |  |
| "Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." | | Poll: | Who will be the winner? |
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| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 22:32 - Jul 1 with 1701 views | jeera |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 22:26 - Jul 1 by MerseyBlue |
I'm certainly not an anti-vaxer but was apprehensive about having the vaccine because of the pace at which things have moved. I think I'm right in saying that much of the work in preparing the vaccine was done long ago, it is the refinement of the vaccine to deal with covid specifically that has been undertaken in a short time. I'm not a man of science, I have to rely on the advice that the scientists and health service give. The long-term effects are unknown, but being that vaccinations are pretty well understood by the scientific community, I suspect there are none.
I wonder if part of the hang up for a lot of people comes from the horror stories around vastly different medicines such as thalidomide. With that lack of public understanding of the complexities of medicine, as well as a landscape of fake news filling social media, I can understand some of the anxieties around it, particularly for someone who is pregnant.
If I've got anything about the science wrong, please advise and I'll amend as wouldn't want to misrepresent the development of the vaccine. I quite quickly decided that my concerns were born out of a lack of understanding of the science, rather than any real dangers. In the end, it's simply the right thing to do. |
Thalidomide wasn't a vaccine and was something dreadful that happened 40 years ago and more.
Disgraceful as it was, the outfall from that led to some of the stringent measures that are in place today.
I don't doubt for a moment that all medicines aren't 100% safe but by that logic I wouldn't take paracetamol.
Let alone allow a complete stranger knock me out for hours on end whist their colleague, another stranger, cut me open and perform surgery on me.
Actually I'm more wary of the latter than the vaccines just to be clear. [Post edited 1 Jul 2021 22:47]
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| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 22:51 - Jul 1 with 1686 views | MerseyBlue |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 22:32 - Jul 1 by jeera |
Thalidomide wasn't a vaccine and was something dreadful that happened 40 years ago and more.
Disgraceful as it was, the outfall from that led to some of the stringent measures that are in place today.
I don't doubt for a moment that all medicines aren't 100% safe but by that logic I wouldn't take paracetamol.
Let alone allow a complete stranger knock me out for hours on end whist their colleague, another stranger, cut me open and perform surgery on me.
Actually I'm more wary of the latter than the vaccines just to be clear. [Post edited 1 Jul 2021 22:47]
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Oh absolutely, as I say, vastly different but I wonder if to the general public things like that make it harder to trust in big pharma and the health service. I remember studying the thalidomide scandal at secondary school in the early-2000s so maybe it is a the back of some people's minds. I don't really know and I suspect not but just a thought.
Whilst it's easy enough to find out that these things are completely different, social media has a horrible way of promoting harmful and false narratives and I wonder if the 5G nonsense, for example, is just a continuation of this. More likely it is the rise of opinions being treated as fact, the lack of trust in large organisations, and the fracturing of society into online echo chambers. | |
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| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 23:57 - Jul 1 with 1659 views | hoppy |
Ah, but it says about being partly due to "...changes to sexual development..." so I don't think you Norfolk types have too much to worry about on that front... |  |
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| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 08:21 - Jul 2 with 1578 views | ADStephenson |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 20:09 - Jul 1 by jeera |
Congratulations.
Trust they're both doing well.
As I (and others) said to our fellow poster there, a mum's first instinct is to do whatever she can to protect her baby and rightly so. I am pro-vaccine all day long but if that were me I would be cautious of my missus taking anything we weren't 100% certain of whilst carrying.
Following the birth etc, then sure, it's the wise thing to do. [Post edited 1 Jul 2021 20:16]
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Thank you - both are doing very well (after the not uncommon touch of jaundice). The midwife recommended she wait as it was only about a month between being eligible and the due date. A week after the birth she was booked in and jabbed. |  |
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| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 08:29 - Jul 2 with 1565 views | urbanblue |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 16:57 - Jul 1 by Fixed_It |
Without wanting to stereotype - she is a hairdresser! |
That's actually quite offensive.
You say you don't want to stereotype ... and then do exactly that.
Can you please explain why Hairdressers are stupid? |  | | |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 08:37 - Jul 2 with 1557 views | ElephantintheRoom |
It's a reasonable point of view to not want to get jabbed with a vaccine that hasn't been through normal approval processes for a disease that isnt going to affect you. To say tens of millions worldwide have been vaccinated is true enough - but there could still be problems ahead that take years to emerge. Getting jabbed because you dont want to die is one thing - getting jabbed just to go on holiday is slightly different. |  |
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| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 08:41 - Jul 2 with 1549 views | DanTheMan |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 08:37 - Jul 2 by ElephantintheRoom |
It's a reasonable point of view to not want to get jabbed with a vaccine that hasn't been through normal approval processes for a disease that isnt going to affect you. To say tens of millions worldwide have been vaccinated is true enough - but there could still be problems ahead that take years to emerge. Getting jabbed because you dont want to die is one thing - getting jabbed just to go on holiday is slightly different. |
"that hasn't been through normal approval processes"
Please outline which steps were missed and why they are considered important. |  |
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| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 08:48 - Jul 2 with 1525 views | StokieBlue |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 08:37 - Jul 2 by ElephantintheRoom |
It's a reasonable point of view to not want to get jabbed with a vaccine that hasn't been through normal approval processes for a disease that isnt going to affect you. To say tens of millions worldwide have been vaccinated is true enough - but there could still be problems ahead that take years to emerge. Getting jabbed because you dont want to die is one thing - getting jabbed just to go on holiday is slightly different. |
The vaccine went through all the usual stages of testing and was actually tested on a far larger cohort that most other vaccines or techniques which are subsequently approved.
Why would there be problems that might emerge in many years time? The vaccines are just stimulating the body to construct and recognise the spike protein of C19. Your "something might happen" point can be made about anything one puts in their body or about many other things. Many studies have been done on vaccine side-effects and in almost all cases any problems occur very soon after the vaccine, not many years down the line.
Covid affects everyone. Many young people have died and many, many more have got long covid which has had an awful impact on their lives. Saying it doesn't effect anyone who isn't in the very last stages of their lives is incorrect.
SB |  | | |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 08:57 - Jul 2 with 1502 views | NthQldITFC |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 22:26 - Jul 1 by MerseyBlue |
I'm certainly not an anti-vaxer but was apprehensive about having the vaccine because of the pace at which things have moved. I think I'm right in saying that much of the work in preparing the vaccine was done long ago, it is the refinement of the vaccine to deal with covid specifically that has been undertaken in a short time. I'm not a man of science, I have to rely on the advice that the scientists and health service give. The long-term effects are unknown, but being that vaccinations are pretty well understood by the scientific community, I suspect there are none.
I wonder if part of the hang up for a lot of people comes from the horror stories around vastly different medicines such as thalidomide. With that lack of public understanding of the complexities of medicine, as well as a landscape of fake news filling social media, I can understand some of the anxieties around it, particularly for someone who is pregnant.
If I've got anything about the science wrong, please advise and I'll amend as wouldn't want to misrepresent the development of the vaccine. I quite quickly decided that my concerns were born out of a lack of understanding of the science, rather than any real dangers. In the end, it's simply the right thing to do. |
For a professed 'non-scientist' I think you have an excellent approach towards assessing and dealing with the uncertainties involved, and in humbly expressing the desire to be 'corrected' where necessary. |  |
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| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 09:17 - Jul 2 with 1490 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 08:48 - Jul 2 by StokieBlue |
The vaccine went through all the usual stages of testing and was actually tested on a far larger cohort that most other vaccines or techniques which are subsequently approved.
Why would there be problems that might emerge in many years time? The vaccines are just stimulating the body to construct and recognise the spike protein of C19. Your "something might happen" point can be made about anything one puts in their body or about many other things. Many studies have been done on vaccine side-effects and in almost all cases any problems occur very soon after the vaccine, not many years down the line.
Covid affects everyone. Many young people have died and many, many more have got long covid which has had an awful impact on their lives. Saying it doesn't effect anyone who isn't in the very last stages of their lives is incorrect.
SB |
You can spout thr government line all you like - but vaccine hysteria was generated because the government opted out of test and trace and border closures. Vaccines are the conservative governments hail mary - conveniently ignoring that vaccinated people can still catch and pass on covid. They have also been guilty of misrepresenting what vaccines can do - stop you dying and getting serious disease, especially in vulnerable cohorts. They wont stop the spread of covid because the only way to do that is isolate carriers - in fact they can encourage its spread as people let their guard down and queue up to take their delta variant on holiday.
There are unknowns that are known - and unknowns that are unknown - vaccinating people by the million can have unforseen effects down the line. There are precedents for this - perhaps most pertinently the 1976 swine flu vaccination programme. It will be many decades before the consequences of cynically using people as human guinea pigs will be known.
There are multiple vaccines, all of which went through different trial processes, some of which are now banned in many countries. Covid is a global problem - and will only end with a global solution - if it ends at all. I note that your blurb also misprepresents truth in that saying someone isnt likely to get seriously ill through covid doesnt mean that a few people do. Nobody is denying reality - apart from you apparently denying people the right to opt out of an untested vaccine for a problem they dont have | |
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| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 09:23 - Jul 2 with 1467 views | DanTheMan |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 09:17 - Jul 2 by ElephantintheRoom |
You can spout thr government line all you like - but vaccine hysteria was generated because the government opted out of test and trace and border closures. Vaccines are the conservative governments hail mary - conveniently ignoring that vaccinated people can still catch and pass on covid. They have also been guilty of misrepresenting what vaccines can do - stop you dying and getting serious disease, especially in vulnerable cohorts. They wont stop the spread of covid because the only way to do that is isolate carriers - in fact they can encourage its spread as people let their guard down and queue up to take their delta variant on holiday.
There are unknowns that are known - and unknowns that are unknown - vaccinating people by the million can have unforseen effects down the line. There are precedents for this - perhaps most pertinently the 1976 swine flu vaccination programme. It will be many decades before the consequences of cynically using people as human guinea pigs will be known.
There are multiple vaccines, all of which went through different trial processes, some of which are now banned in many countries. Covid is a global problem - and will only end with a global solution - if it ends at all. I note that your blurb also misprepresents truth in that saying someone isnt likely to get seriously ill through covid doesnt mean that a few people do. Nobody is denying reality - apart from you apparently denying people the right to opt out of an untested vaccine for a problem they dont have |
Which processes / tests did the vaccines not go through that usual ones would have? You've repeated this assertion and I don't believe you can back it up. | |
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| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 09:24 - Jul 2 with 1464 views | hype313 |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 09:23 - Jul 2 by DanTheMan |
Which processes / tests did the vaccines not go through that usual ones would have? You've repeated this assertion and I don't believe you can back it up. |
He can't. |  |
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| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 09:30 - Jul 2 with 1451 views | NthQldITFC |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 09:17 - Jul 2 by ElephantintheRoom |
You can spout thr government line all you like - but vaccine hysteria was generated because the government opted out of test and trace and border closures. Vaccines are the conservative governments hail mary - conveniently ignoring that vaccinated people can still catch and pass on covid. They have also been guilty of misrepresenting what vaccines can do - stop you dying and getting serious disease, especially in vulnerable cohorts. They wont stop the spread of covid because the only way to do that is isolate carriers - in fact they can encourage its spread as people let their guard down and queue up to take their delta variant on holiday.
There are unknowns that are known - and unknowns that are unknown - vaccinating people by the million can have unforseen effects down the line. There are precedents for this - perhaps most pertinently the 1976 swine flu vaccination programme. It will be many decades before the consequences of cynically using people as human guinea pigs will be known.
There are multiple vaccines, all of which went through different trial processes, some of which are now banned in many countries. Covid is a global problem - and will only end with a global solution - if it ends at all. I note that your blurb also misprepresents truth in that saying someone isnt likely to get seriously ill through covid doesnt mean that a few people do. Nobody is denying reality - apart from you apparently denying people the right to opt out of an untested vaccine for a problem they dont have |
lol | |
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| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 09:36 - Jul 2 with 1438 views | Swansea_Blue |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 09:17 - Jul 2 by ElephantintheRoom |
You can spout thr government line all you like - but vaccine hysteria was generated because the government opted out of test and trace and border closures. Vaccines are the conservative governments hail mary - conveniently ignoring that vaccinated people can still catch and pass on covid. They have also been guilty of misrepresenting what vaccines can do - stop you dying and getting serious disease, especially in vulnerable cohorts. They wont stop the spread of covid because the only way to do that is isolate carriers - in fact they can encourage its spread as people let their guard down and queue up to take their delta variant on holiday.
There are unknowns that are known - and unknowns that are unknown - vaccinating people by the million can have unforseen effects down the line. There are precedents for this - perhaps most pertinently the 1976 swine flu vaccination programme. It will be many decades before the consequences of cynically using people as human guinea pigs will be known.
There are multiple vaccines, all of which went through different trial processes, some of which are now banned in many countries. Covid is a global problem - and will only end with a global solution - if it ends at all. I note that your blurb also misprepresents truth in that saying someone isnt likely to get seriously ill through covid doesnt mean that a few people do. Nobody is denying reality - apart from you apparently denying people the right to opt out of an untested vaccine for a problem they dont have |
I think that everything you say in that first para has actually been made front and centre of the medical profession comms. We know that vaccinated people can still catch and pass on covid. We know that their main impact is to reduce the likelihood of getting seriously ill. We know they won't stop the spread. None of that is being "conveniently ignored". as far as I'm aware.
People may not realise it or may be ignoring those things, but that's something else entirely. |  |
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| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 09:40 - Jul 2 with 1431 views | StokieBlue |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 09:17 - Jul 2 by ElephantintheRoom |
You can spout thr government line all you like - but vaccine hysteria was generated because the government opted out of test and trace and border closures. Vaccines are the conservative governments hail mary - conveniently ignoring that vaccinated people can still catch and pass on covid. They have also been guilty of misrepresenting what vaccines can do - stop you dying and getting serious disease, especially in vulnerable cohorts. They wont stop the spread of covid because the only way to do that is isolate carriers - in fact they can encourage its spread as people let their guard down and queue up to take their delta variant on holiday.
There are unknowns that are known - and unknowns that are unknown - vaccinating people by the million can have unforseen effects down the line. There are precedents for this - perhaps most pertinently the 1976 swine flu vaccination programme. It will be many decades before the consequences of cynically using people as human guinea pigs will be known.
There are multiple vaccines, all of which went through different trial processes, some of which are now banned in many countries. Covid is a global problem - and will only end with a global solution - if it ends at all. I note that your blurb also misprepresents truth in that saying someone isnt likely to get seriously ill through covid doesnt mean that a few people do. Nobody is denying reality - apart from you apparently denying people the right to opt out of an untested vaccine for a problem they dont have |
So citing a vaccine from 1976 is a false equivalence. The technology used in the vaccine was totally different, the testing was less than was done for the C19 vaccines and science has moved forward nearly 50 years. You might as well cite leeches as a treatment that has side-effects if you are going to cite things that are 50 years behind the current levels of scientific understanding.
"They have also been guilty of misrepresenting what vaccines can do - stop you dying and getting serious disease, especially in vulnerable cohorts. They wont stop the spread of covid because the only way to do that is isolate carriers - in fact they can encourage its spread as people let their guard down and queue up to take their delta variant on holiday."
This is simply untrue. They have been very honest about what the vaccines do and they do minimise the spread of C19 (this has been proven) as the viral load is lower. Just stating your opinion without any evidence is worthless.
"I note that your blurb also misprepresents truth in that saying someone isnt likely to get seriously ill through covid doesnt mean that a few people do. Nobody is denying reality - apart from you apparently denying people the right to opt out of an untested vaccine for a problem they dont have."
It's pretty rich to cite me for misrepresentation when what I said is scientifically true whilst then totally mispresenting my position in your final sentence.
SB [Post edited 2 Jul 2021 9:42]
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| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 09:57 - Jul 2 with 1411 views | JammyDodgerrr |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 22:26 - Jul 1 by MerseyBlue |
I'm certainly not an anti-vaxer but was apprehensive about having the vaccine because of the pace at which things have moved. I think I'm right in saying that much of the work in preparing the vaccine was done long ago, it is the refinement of the vaccine to deal with covid specifically that has been undertaken in a short time. I'm not a man of science, I have to rely on the advice that the scientists and health service give. The long-term effects are unknown, but being that vaccinations are pretty well understood by the scientific community, I suspect there are none.
I wonder if part of the hang up for a lot of people comes from the horror stories around vastly different medicines such as thalidomide. With that lack of public understanding of the complexities of medicine, as well as a landscape of fake news filling social media, I can understand some of the anxieties around it, particularly for someone who is pregnant.
If I've got anything about the science wrong, please advise and I'll amend as wouldn't want to misrepresent the development of the vaccine. I quite quickly decided that my concerns were born out of a lack of understanding of the science, rather than any real dangers. In the end, it's simply the right thing to do. |
You are correct in your first paragraph - MRNA Vaccines started their first work 30 years ago roughly, and they have been other vaccines for other Coronaviruses. The thing to remember about vaccine and medicine development is, that it is by and large quite a slow process because it is held up by endless requests for funding. The difference this time is the whole world is literally throwing money at the problem, which means that the scientists can get on and do what they do best.
Important to remember as well that they have focus groups, months and months ahead of general public rollout, so any other effects or issues(unlikely though as SB has outlined in other posts) will be flagged long before we know about them. |  |
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| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 10:16 - Jul 2 with 1395 views | MerseyBlue |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 08:57 - Jul 2 by NthQldITFC |
For a professed 'non-scientist' I think you have an excellent approach towards assessing and dealing with the uncertainties involved, and in humbly expressing the desire to be 'corrected' where necessary. |
Appreciate that, thank you. I just don't want to spread anything false or harmful around the good work that has been done by all involved, there is enough of that going around already. | |
| "Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." | | Poll: | Who will be the winner? |
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| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 10:23 - Jul 2 with 1385 views | giant_stow |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 09:17 - Jul 2 by ElephantintheRoom |
You can spout thr government line all you like - but vaccine hysteria was generated because the government opted out of test and trace and border closures. Vaccines are the conservative governments hail mary - conveniently ignoring that vaccinated people can still catch and pass on covid. They have also been guilty of misrepresenting what vaccines can do - stop you dying and getting serious disease, especially in vulnerable cohorts. They wont stop the spread of covid because the only way to do that is isolate carriers - in fact they can encourage its spread as people let their guard down and queue up to take their delta variant on holiday.
There are unknowns that are known - and unknowns that are unknown - vaccinating people by the million can have unforseen effects down the line. There are precedents for this - perhaps most pertinently the 1976 swine flu vaccination programme. It will be many decades before the consequences of cynically using people as human guinea pigs will be known.
There are multiple vaccines, all of which went through different trial processes, some of which are now banned in many countries. Covid is a global problem - and will only end with a global solution - if it ends at all. I note that your blurb also misprepresents truth in that saying someone isnt likely to get seriously ill through covid doesnt mean that a few people do. Nobody is denying reality - apart from you apparently denying people the right to opt out of an untested vaccine for a problem they dont have |
not up to your usual standard. |  |
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| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 10:24 - Jul 2 with 1384 views | MerseyBlue |
| So my friend is trying to persuade... on 09:57 - Jul 2 by JammyDodgerrr |
You are correct in your first paragraph - MRNA Vaccines started their first work 30 years ago roughly, and they have been other vaccines for other Coronaviruses. The thing to remember about vaccine and medicine development is, that it is by and large quite a slow process because it is held up by endless requests for funding. The difference this time is the whole world is literally throwing money at the problem, which means that the scientists can get on and do what they do best.
Important to remember as well that they have focus groups, months and months ahead of general public rollout, so any other effects or issues(unlikely though as SB has outlined in other posts) will be flagged long before we know about them. |
Nicely explained, good to know I've taken in the main points! Thank you. | |
| "Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." | | Poll: | Who will be the winner? |
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