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Masks post July 19 08:05 - Jul 5 with 9389 viewsbluelagos

Appears that the mandatory wearing of masks will be replaced by personal choice with govt guidance to wear them in enclosed busy places.

One obviously enclosed busy place is public transport, tubes, trains etc.

Playbook reported that TFL could retain masks as a condition of entry but it seems unlikely and would be unforecable imho.

So, is there a case for mask carriages, say 2 per tube, where you are expected to wear one. Would give those anxious or vulnerable the ability to travel as they choose and those who wish not to wear a mask the opportunity to do so without impacting on others by choosing a different carriage.

Good idea or as crp as my alternative days idea for pubs ? (Cv passport)
[Post edited 5 Jul 2021 8:12]

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Masks post July 19 on 08:11 - Jul 5 with 3963 views26_Paz

Good idea in principle, wouldn’t work in practice. Imagine busy platforms, how would you know where to stand to get in the appropriate carriage. Would be carnage with people trying to move once the train arrives.

The Paz Man

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Masks post July 19 on 08:14 - Jul 5 with 3975 viewsStokieBlue

"Playbook reported that TFL could retain masks as a condition of entry but it seems unlikely and would be unforecable imho."

It's unenforceable even now, every time I've been on public transport in London a good percentage haven't been wearing masks and nothing is done about it (far, far higher than any exemptions would be). Your suggestion wouldn't work because the same people who ignore the rules now will ignore the "mask-only" carriage rules when the trains are busy.

The whole thing has become ridiculous, Javid doesn't care a jot what the scientists say (and they are pretty much uniformly against opening up in such as complete way) and the whole thing has become a self-propelling "Freedom Day" narrative for the Tories.

The only thing which might save us is the fact we are doing well on vaccinations but if the Delta is allowed to spread at it's natural R then it's going to find enough people where the vaccination isn't working well enough for them. Scientists are saying we should wait until 80+% of adults are double-dosed (preferably more than that) and also vaccinate 12+ to ensure the pool it has to circulate is vastly reduced. I guess we will see if they are right in about 6 weeks time.

Let's hope the Lambda variant isn't more transmissible than the Delta variant (jury is out on this at the moment) as it's also showing signs of being better at evading the vaccine-based immunity.

SB

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Masks post July 19 on 08:16 - Jul 5 with 3962 viewsStokieBlue

Masks post July 19 on 08:11 - Jul 5 by 26_Paz

Good idea in principle, wouldn’t work in practice. Imagine busy platforms, how would you know where to stand to get in the appropriate carriage. Would be carnage with people trying to move once the train arrives.


Indeed.

So just keep masks full stop in enclosed public transport like the tube. I mean is it really a hardship to wear one for 20 minutes whilst travelling in order to protect yourself and others? You don't see all these complaints in Asia from people wearing them.

Overground trains might be OK as all the windows can be opened to provide at least some ventilation.

I'm still planning on wearing my mask for the foreseeable on things like public transport. Lets hope people aren't abused for taking this decision if they so choose.

SB
[Post edited 5 Jul 2021 8:17]

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Masks post July 19 on 08:20 - Jul 5 with 3929 viewsblueblueburleymcgrew

Masks post July 19 on 08:16 - Jul 5 by StokieBlue

Indeed.

So just keep masks full stop in enclosed public transport like the tube. I mean is it really a hardship to wear one for 20 minutes whilst travelling in order to protect yourself and others? You don't see all these complaints in Asia from people wearing them.

Overground trains might be OK as all the windows can be opened to provide at least some ventilation.

I'm still planning on wearing my mask for the foreseeable on things like public transport. Lets hope people aren't abused for taking this decision if they so choose.

SB
[Post edited 5 Jul 2021 8:17]


I think your final paragraph is key. It should be entirely up to the individual, mask wearers and non mask wearers should be respected and not challenged.

It must be about unhindered personal choice.
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Masks post July 19 on 08:23 - Jul 5 with 3900 viewsbluelagos

Masks post July 19 on 08:14 - Jul 5 by StokieBlue

"Playbook reported that TFL could retain masks as a condition of entry but it seems unlikely and would be unforecable imho."

It's unenforceable even now, every time I've been on public transport in London a good percentage haven't been wearing masks and nothing is done about it (far, far higher than any exemptions would be). Your suggestion wouldn't work because the same people who ignore the rules now will ignore the "mask-only" carriage rules when the trains are busy.

The whole thing has become ridiculous, Javid doesn't care a jot what the scientists say (and they are pretty much uniformly against opening up in such as complete way) and the whole thing has become a self-propelling "Freedom Day" narrative for the Tories.

The only thing which might save us is the fact we are doing well on vaccinations but if the Delta is allowed to spread at it's natural R then it's going to find enough people where the vaccination isn't working well enough for them. Scientists are saying we should wait until 80+% of adults are double-dosed (preferably more than that) and also vaccinate 12+ to ensure the pool it has to circulate is vastly reduced. I guess we will see if they are right in about 6 weeks time.

Let's hope the Lambda variant isn't more transmissible than the Delta variant (jury is out on this at the moment) as it's also showing signs of being better at evading the vaccine-based immunity.

SB


Not convinced people would ignore it.

People who currently ignore the rules on masks may be doing it because they dont like wearing them rather than a desire to break rules and/or antagonise people. The odd idiot would no doubt look to be a knob but I reckon 99% of those who chose not to wear a mask going forward would respect those who do.

Maybe if the carriages were labelled "vulnerable carriages" there would be even more compliance?

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Masks post July 19 on 08:27 - Jul 5 with 3868 viewsbluelagos

Masks post July 19 on 08:16 - Jul 5 by StokieBlue

Indeed.

So just keep masks full stop in enclosed public transport like the tube. I mean is it really a hardship to wear one for 20 minutes whilst travelling in order to protect yourself and others? You don't see all these complaints in Asia from people wearing them.

Overground trains might be OK as all the windows can be opened to provide at least some ventilation.

I'm still planning on wearing my mask for the foreseeable on things like public transport. Lets hope people aren't abused for taking this decision if they so choose.

SB
[Post edited 5 Jul 2021 8:17]


Anyone abusing a mask wearer, would be a proper scumbag.

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Masks post July 19 on 08:34 - Jul 5 with 3815 viewsStokieBlue

Masks post July 19 on 08:23 - Jul 5 by bluelagos

Not convinced people would ignore it.

People who currently ignore the rules on masks may be doing it because they dont like wearing them rather than a desire to break rules and/or antagonise people. The odd idiot would no doubt look to be a knob but I reckon 99% of those who chose not to wear a mask going forward would respect those who do.

Maybe if the carriages were labelled "vulnerable carriages" there would be even more compliance?


I think you are underestimating the selfishness of some people.

Some people simply think the rules don't apply to them, it's tough luck if you don't like wearing a mask, the rules are you have to and you should be fined if you don't however it doesn't happen and people know this.

I honestly think that many people would totally ignore it - that is what the evidence of the past year shows so why would we not use that evidence?

SB

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Masks post July 19 on 08:42 - Jul 5 with 3775 viewsbluelagos

Masks post July 19 on 08:34 - Jul 5 by StokieBlue

I think you are underestimating the selfishness of some people.

Some people simply think the rules don't apply to them, it's tough luck if you don't like wearing a mask, the rules are you have to and you should be fined if you don't however it doesn't happen and people know this.

I honestly think that many people would totally ignore it - that is what the evidence of the past year shows so why would we not use that evidence?

SB


So given the rules are changing (whether you or I like it) would you not prefer to give the idea a go? It could work, it could fail, it might be 95% ok. Two of those outcomes would surely be better for those who are vulnerable and/or chose to wear a mask inline with the guidance.

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Masks post July 19 on 09:17 - Jul 5 with 3643 viewsStokieBlue

Masks post July 19 on 08:42 - Jul 5 by bluelagos

So given the rules are changing (whether you or I like it) would you not prefer to give the idea a go? It could work, it could fail, it might be 95% ok. Two of those outcomes would surely be better for those who are vulnerable and/or chose to wear a mask inline with the guidance.


The changing guidance is deeply flawed according to the scientific community but if we assume it's going to happen then perhaps this idea could work (although I would prefer 90% masked carriages and 10% unmasked/free choice).

I think even if you had 2 carriages of mask-only travellers you'd still see loads of complaints about people not being given their "freedoms" back as they can't use those carriages and others who specifically make a point to go in those carriages without a mask which might make people in there even more anxious.

We know C19 spreads rapidly and effectively in confined and poorly ventilated places - masks should still be used in those specific places for the foreseeable future in my opinion.

SB

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Masks post July 19 on 09:23 - Jul 5 with 3622 viewshype313

Masks post July 19 on 09:17 - Jul 5 by StokieBlue

The changing guidance is deeply flawed according to the scientific community but if we assume it's going to happen then perhaps this idea could work (although I would prefer 90% masked carriages and 10% unmasked/free choice).

I think even if you had 2 carriages of mask-only travellers you'd still see loads of complaints about people not being given their "freedoms" back as they can't use those carriages and others who specifically make a point to go in those carriages without a mask which might make people in there even more anxious.

We know C19 spreads rapidly and effectively in confined and poorly ventilated places - masks should still be used in those specific places for the foreseeable future in my opinion.

SB


The thing is we're seeing a significant surge in numbers, even though mask wearing is still mandated. So it's clear it has limited utility when set against removal of social distancing.

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Masks post July 19 on 09:29 - Jul 5 with 3589 viewsOldsmoker

Masks post July 19 on 08:27 - Jul 5 by bluelagos

Anyone abusing a mask wearer, would be a proper scumbag.


I still intend to carry a mask with me and will wear it when I think it's appropriate.
I (sadly) expect the number of scumbags I meet will increase exponentially.

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Masks post July 19 on 09:42 - Jul 5 with 3538 viewsStokieBlue

Masks post July 19 on 09:23 - Jul 5 by hype313

The thing is we're seeing a significant surge in numbers, even though mask wearing is still mandated. So it's clear it has limited utility when set against removal of social distancing.


Indeed, although it will make some difference. Every element you remove from the restrictions allows C19 to spread at closer to it's natural R value which is now >6 for the Delta variant. Vaccines will reduce that due to a lower viral load but we are still looking at a virus which is far more transmissible than it was when it emerged 18 months ago.

I would also question if people are still really wearing their masks at the moment, I see a good proportion who have totally stopped in shops etc already and certainly on transport it seems to have gone right out the window.

Nothing we can do now, the Tories have made their decision based on what they feel are the import factors so we will just wait and see how things turn out over the next 6 weeks or so. It's definitely possible things will tick along fine with no increase in hospitalisation.

SB
[Post edited 5 Jul 2021 9:48]

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Masks post July 19 on 09:45 - Jul 5 with 3513 viewsfactual_blue

Masks post July 19 on 09:23 - Jul 5 by hype313

The thing is we're seeing a significant surge in numbers, even though mask wearing is still mandated. So it's clear it has limited utility when set against removal of social distancing.


The key indicator for the government is the number of hospital admissions, which are remaining low. Not having to spend one penny more than is necessary on communist medicine is this god-awful libertarian government's key principle.

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Masks post July 19 on 10:09 - Jul 5 with 3415 viewsartsbossbeard

I'm still wearing a mask in shops, supermarkets and public transport for the foreseeable.

First person to give me grief in Tesco gets lashed into the freezer.

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Masks post July 19 on 10:13 - Jul 5 with 3391 viewsWeWereZombies

Sorry Lagos, that makes no sense. If the intention of asking people to wear masks is to reduce infection, reduce the spread of Covid-19, then it has to be an absolute for enclosed spaces (with the only exceptions being people who genuinely are grossly hindered by wearing a mask e.g. severe breathing difficulties). Imagine a situation where a hundred isolated people had to pass through a couple of tunnels to get under a river, we know that one of those hundred people has a highly contagious and fatal disease but we do not know who that person is. If we say that people can choose which tunnel to use depending on whether they want to wear a mask or not then we have created a situation where the opportunity for the disease is spread is increased by whatever percentage of people use the no mask tunnel even if all hundred people isolate again on the other side of the river.

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Masks post July 19 on 10:17 - Jul 5 with 3360 viewsdickie

Masks post July 19 on 10:09 - Jul 5 by artsbossbeard

I'm still wearing a mask in shops, supermarkets and public transport for the foreseeable.

First person to give me grief in Tesco gets lashed into the freezer.


This.

I can just see the future... Next variant kicks in but we've relaxed too soon so we're starting from high figures already, back into lockdown in the autumn (and let's hope that the next variant isn't vaccine resistant)

I sincerely hope I'm wrong though
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Masks post July 19 on 10:27 - Jul 5 with 3294 viewsbluelagos

Masks post July 19 on 10:13 - Jul 5 by WeWereZombies

Sorry Lagos, that makes no sense. If the intention of asking people to wear masks is to reduce infection, reduce the spread of Covid-19, then it has to be an absolute for enclosed spaces (with the only exceptions being people who genuinely are grossly hindered by wearing a mask e.g. severe breathing difficulties). Imagine a situation where a hundred isolated people had to pass through a couple of tunnels to get under a river, we know that one of those hundred people has a highly contagious and fatal disease but we do not know who that person is. If we say that people can choose which tunnel to use depending on whether they want to wear a mask or not then we have created a situation where the opportunity for the disease is spread is increased by whatever percentage of people use the no mask tunnel even if all hundred people isolate again on the other side of the river.


So we would be condensing those without masks and increasing spread? Your argument makes sense on a practical level.

Happy to ditch it to the dustbin of "meant well but ultimately rubbish" ideas...

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Masks post July 19 on 10:41 - Jul 5 with 3243 viewsPinewoodblue

Masks post July 19 on 10:27 - Jul 5 by bluelagos

So we would be condensing those without masks and increasing spread? Your argument makes sense on a practical level.

Happy to ditch it to the dustbin of "meant well but ultimately rubbish" ideas...


Depends on what percentage take the mask free tunnel.

Peer pressure will come to the fore. If you are in a confined space and the majority are masked you are more likely to feel the need to do likewise. Same works in reverse walk into a bar with 50 twenty somethings in, with all but a handful mask free, you are unlikely to wear one.

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Masks post July 19 on 10:44 - Jul 5 with 3228 viewsb1079blue

Masks post July 19 on 10:27 - Jul 5 by bluelagos

So we would be condensing those without masks and increasing spread? Your argument makes sense on a practical level.

Happy to ditch it to the dustbin of "meant well but ultimately rubbish" ideas...


Masks will be the new hoodie, another device for the feral yoof of today to avoid recognition. No wonder this country has lost its stiff upper lip it is hidden behind a face nappy. I didn't fight two world wars to have some woolie leftie tell me what i can put around my mouth. (supply your own punchline) Thats the sort of thing the boche would have done.
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Masks post July 19 on 10:52 - Jul 5 with 3196 viewsDanTheMan

Masks post July 19 on 10:44 - Jul 5 by b1079blue

Masks will be the new hoodie, another device for the feral yoof of today to avoid recognition. No wonder this country has lost its stiff upper lip it is hidden behind a face nappy. I didn't fight two world wars to have some woolie leftie tell me what i can put around my mouth. (supply your own punchline) Thats the sort of thing the boche would have done.


Poe's law in action right here.

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Masks post July 19 on 10:53 - Jul 5 with 3196 viewsCotty

Masks post July 19 on 08:20 - Jul 5 by blueblueburleymcgrew

I think your final paragraph is key. It should be entirely up to the individual, mask wearers and non mask wearers should be respected and not challenged.

It must be about unhindered personal choice.


The consequences of not wearing a mask are not personal, they are collective.
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Masks post July 19 on 10:55 - Jul 5 with 3180 viewsWeWereZombies

Masks post July 19 on 10:44 - Jul 5 by b1079blue

Masks will be the new hoodie, another device for the feral yoof of today to avoid recognition. No wonder this country has lost its stiff upper lip it is hidden behind a face nappy. I didn't fight two world wars to have some woolie leftie tell me what i can put around my mouth. (supply your own punchline) Thats the sort of thing the boche would have done.


Now listen here laddie, you think we don't twig your sarcasm?

So when I come down to England next month I shall be wearing a face mask, and one with a Saltire of St. Andrew on it (maybe with a caption saying 'only team to take a point off England and stop them scoring')...or maybe one with the Saltire of St. Patrick on it just to confuse the feck out of everybody.

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Masks post July 19 on 10:58 - Jul 5 with 3146 viewsThe_Last_Baron

Masks post July 19 on 09:29 - Jul 5 by Oldsmoker

I still intend to carry a mask with me and will wear it when I think it's appropriate.
I (sadly) expect the number of scumbags I meet will increase exponentially.


I'm happy you have the right to wear a mask.

I'm also happy for people to have the right not to do so.

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Masks post July 19 on 11:06 - Jul 5 with 3113 viewsStokieBlue

Masks post July 19 on 10:58 - Jul 5 by The_Last_Baron

I'm happy you have the right to wear a mask.

I'm also happy for people to have the right not to do so.


The issue here though is that the "right" not to wear a mask can adversely affect people whilst the same isn't true the other way around.

It's not the equivalence you are portraying.

SB

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Masks post July 19 on 11:15 - Jul 5 with 3065 viewsStokieBlue

Masks post July 19 on 10:17 - Jul 5 by dickie

This.

I can just see the future... Next variant kicks in but we've relaxed too soon so we're starting from high figures already, back into lockdown in the autumn (and let's hope that the next variant isn't vaccine resistant)

I sincerely hope I'm wrong though


Early days but the Lambda variant is outcompeting the Delta variant in South America which implies a higher R and more transmissibility. It also has some worrying mutations that might affect the vaccines but nobody knows at the moment.

https://www.cityam.com/six-uk-cases-fast-spreading-lambda-variant-puzzles-covid-

Hopefully a tweeted booster will resolve issues coming from spike protein mutations.

SB

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