| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me 20:53 - Jul 13 with 2590 views | LegendofthePhoenix |
Many Town fans, on here and elsewhere, have been vocal in criticising Toto Nsiala as being a liability, full of mistakes, yellow /red cards etc.
I have concerns that because Toto is a big guy and has black skin, that in the spur of the moment, referees may make a split second decision to yellow card him or award a free kick against him. Several times I have wondered if a white player or lighter skinned player would have had the decision go against them for the same offence. I'm not saying Toto never makes mistakes, what I am saying is I can't help thinking that his appearance may count against him when a ref is making a split second decision. I don't know if there are any stats anywhere on the number of yellow and red cards against players taking skin colour into account, but I would like to know if there is such data and whether it points towards any inherent bias from referees. |  |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 20:55 - Jul 13 with 1937 views | textbackup |
I mean, no..… its just down to misplaced tackles due to a lack of quality.
don't look for things that aren't there, there's enough to focus on |  |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 20:58 - Jul 13 with 1891 views | Darth_Koont |
No idea. But good if so.
A similar bias was revealed in the NBA, the referees took note and then the bias disappeared. There was no hint of conscious prejudice either, just an unconscious tendency. |  |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 20:59 - Jul 13 with 1873 views | gtsb1966 |
Probably one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read on here. |  | | |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:00 - Jul 13 with 1869 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
It is OK to criticise a black player for not playing well.
It is not OK to single out said player because of the colour of his skin.
It is an utter disgrace for any criticism to reference the colour of their skin.
I see no evidence that the second line has happened and certainly not the third - at least not on here.
I am a fan of Toto but I can see why people do not think he is good enough. For what it's worth, I think he is a hugely improved player and the views of some are skewed towards the mistakes he made in his first season here.
EDIT: Notice I didn't read the OP carefully enough and notice it was more unconscious bias from refs you were referring to. Would make an interesting analysis as a sports science experiment comparing fouls from different players and referee reactions. [Post edited 13 Jul 2021 21:03]
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:01 - Jul 13 with 1838 views | chrismakin |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 20:59 - Jul 13 by gtsb1966 |
Probably one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read on here. |
Its not at all. Fair play to the OP for posting it. |  |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:01 - Jul 13 with 1842 views | LegendofthePhoenix |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 20:59 - Jul 13 by gtsb1966 |
Probably one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read on here. |
because unconscious racism just doesn't exist, right? | |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:02 - Jul 13 with 1830 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:00 - Jul 13 by Nthsuffolkblue |
It is OK to criticise a black player for not playing well.
It is not OK to single out said player because of the colour of his skin.
It is an utter disgrace for any criticism to reference the colour of their skin.
I see no evidence that the second line has happened and certainly not the third - at least not on here.
I am a fan of Toto but I can see why people do not think he is good enough. For what it's worth, I think he is a hugely improved player and the views of some are skewed towards the mistakes he made in his first season here.
EDIT: Notice I didn't read the OP carefully enough and notice it was more unconscious bias from refs you were referring to. Would make an interesting analysis as a sports science experiment comparing fouls from different players and referee reactions. [Post edited 13 Jul 2021 21:03]
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I think he's got a part to play this season.
Didn't last anyone down last season. |  |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:02 - Jul 13 with 1836 views | Guthrum |
No, it has more to do with him being the last defender in a team which is very porous through the middle, open to crosses coming in from wide and where others don't always track their man.
In any case, that issue is vastly overstated. It's only happened about three or four times in 60-odd appearances. Plus it ignores the number of good blocks he makes, undoubtedly preventing quite a few goals. |  |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:04 - Jul 13 with 1791 views | chrismakin |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:00 - Jul 13 by Nthsuffolkblue |
It is OK to criticise a black player for not playing well.
It is not OK to single out said player because of the colour of his skin.
It is an utter disgrace for any criticism to reference the colour of their skin.
I see no evidence that the second line has happened and certainly not the third - at least not on here.
I am a fan of Toto but I can see why people do not think he is good enough. For what it's worth, I think he is a hugely improved player and the views of some are skewed towards the mistakes he made in his first season here.
EDIT: Notice I didn't read the OP carefully enough and notice it was more unconscious bias from refs you were referring to. Would make an interesting analysis as a sports science experiment comparing fouls from different players and referee reactions. [Post edited 13 Jul 2021 21:03]
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Have I misread the OPs intention? It's not about fan opinion its about officiating? | |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:05 - Jul 13 with 1782 views | Darth_Koont |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:01 - Jul 13 by LegendofthePhoenix |
because unconscious racism just doesn't exist, right? |
Indeed. I’m not saying there’s an anti-black tendency without evidence but none of this stuff hurts from asking the question.
Whereas the flat-out denial does hurt. | |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:06 - Jul 13 with 1774 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:04 - Jul 13 by chrismakin |
Have I misread the OPs intention? It's not about fan opinion its about officiating? |
That is the edit which may have been added while you were typing. | |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:07 - Jul 13 with 1769 views | Vaughan8 |
So you're wondering if refs penalise him more because he's tall and black?
If it is, then this is one of the most ridiculous posts on this forum, which is saying something. |  | | |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:08 - Jul 13 with 1741 views | OriginalMarkyP |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 20:59 - Jul 13 by gtsb1966 |
Probably one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read on here. |
Read Malcolm Gladwell's book Blink. It talks about unconscious bias and the Implicit Association Test.
It's quite revealing. It's covered a bit in this article.
https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/arts-and-books/why-malcolm-gladwell-thinks-im
That post wasn't ridiculous at all. |  |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:10 - Jul 13 with 1716 views | chrismakin |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:07 - Jul 13 by Vaughan8 |
So you're wondering if refs penalise him more because he's tall and black?
If it is, then this is one of the most ridiculous posts on this forum, which is saying something. |
The ridiculous thing is those who cant see that it could very much exist. | |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:12 - Jul 13 with 1707 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
The stats are only meaningful in the context of the number of black players as a ratio of overall players. The Premier League all time is also different from at lower league level.
However, without knowing the proportion of black players, I would suspect League 1 last season suggests no such bias: https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/league-one/suenderkartei/wettbewerb/GB3/plus//ga | |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:15 - Jul 13 with 1684 views | Darth_Koont |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:00 - Jul 13 by Nthsuffolkblue |
It is OK to criticise a black player for not playing well.
It is not OK to single out said player because of the colour of his skin.
It is an utter disgrace for any criticism to reference the colour of their skin.
I see no evidence that the second line has happened and certainly not the third - at least not on here.
I am a fan of Toto but I can see why people do not think he is good enough. For what it's worth, I think he is a hugely improved player and the views of some are skewed towards the mistakes he made in his first season here.
EDIT: Notice I didn't read the OP carefully enough and notice it was more unconscious bias from refs you were referring to. Would make an interesting analysis as a sports science experiment comparing fouls from different players and referee reactions. [Post edited 13 Jul 2021 21:03]
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I think your post with the edit sums it up.
We can think Toto is rash and that he can use his athleticism to unwisely stick out a leg. But also he probably doesn’t get the unconscious benefit of being an “old school defender”.
I always thought that Berra was incredibly skilled at almost always fouling but never quite enough for the ref to blow the whistle. Wonder if a bigger, darker player would have gotten away with the same. | |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:19 - Jul 13 with 1650 views | Guthrum |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:10 - Jul 13 by chrismakin |
The ridiculous thing is those who cant see that it could very much exist. |
Possibly more of an issue is that the fans become fixated on a few relatively rare mistakes (some of which situations he was landed in by others' errors or omissions) and unjustifiably turn the player in question into a scapegoat for all the team's ills. | |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:19 - Jul 13 with 1643 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:12 - Jul 13 by Nthsuffolkblue |
The stats are only meaningful in the context of the number of black players as a ratio of overall players. The Premier League all time is also different from at lower league level.
However, without knowing the proportion of black players, I would suspect League 1 last season suggests no such bias: https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/league-one/suenderkartei/wettbewerb/GB3/plus//ga |
It's estimated that around 25% of Premier League players are from a BAME background.
With that context the link would suggest no such bias.
I accept its not very scientific, but it's indicative. | |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:20 - Jul 13 with 1648 views | Darth_Koont |
This is just one of the problems with people thinking their opinions are sacrosanct. They’ll even use it to argue against things that are unconscious.
We’ve had this discussion on here re: the Rooney rule and the number of black managers and coaches ... and still they don’t get it! | |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:21 - Jul 13 with 1640 views | Vaughan8 |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:10 - Jul 13 by chrismakin |
The ridiculous thing is those who cant see that it could very much exist. |
It could exist, it could not exist. You can look for racism everywhere if you want.
I'm guessing No1 can prove there is any correlation but I'm happy to be proved wrong.
Also, he got 2 yellow cards last year? Hardly loads.
So does everyone who doesn't think Nsiala is very good is subconsciously racist? Where does it end? [Post edited 13 Jul 2021 21:22]
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:22 - Jul 13 with 1636 views | Churchman |
It’s an interesting question, but I don’t believe skin colour has ever come into refereeing decisions going right back to the days of Miller and Clyde Best.
I’ve never seen any evidence of that, but then it’s something I’ve never considered or looked for, so I may be wrong. |  | | |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:27 - Jul 13 with 1595 views | Seablu |
Blimey, that’s a lot to digest.
I watch an awful lot of league 1 & 2 football and I was underwhelmed by the signing of Toto.
He does have a mistake or two in him, but is a decent league 1 centre half.
At the moment, I don’t honestly see him ever cutting it as a championship level player.
That said, his attitude and effort eclipsed many of the half ar*ed floaters we’ve indulged over the last 3 years.
Is my opinion in any way influenced by the colour of his skin?
As a woke and soft leftie, I can honestly say it isn’t.
As for some of the Ipswich fans it’s been my horror to encounter both in real life and on here, I’d say their opinion is most definitely influenced by his ethnicity.
As to whether refs make decisions based on skin colour, I genuinely don’t think so.
Toto’s a lovely and honest bloke and I’d love it if he was here in 3 years time, carving up the top league, having rammed my amateur opinion firmly up my ar*e. |  | | |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:28 - Jul 13 with 1590 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:19 - Jul 13 by Marshalls_Mullet |
It's estimated that around 25% of Premier League players are from a BAME background.
With that context the link would suggest no such bias.
I accept its not very scientific, but it's indicative. |
Would be if you were looking at data for while 25% have been black. The link you selected was all-time and I suspect the proportion of black players has increased since the Premier League started. | |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:43 - Jul 13 with 1500 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:28 - Jul 13 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Would be if you were looking at data for while 25% have been black. The link you selected was all-time and I suspect the proportion of black players has increased since the Premier League started. |
Crikey. Pedants corner.
Just adjust it for 2020/21 it's not difficult and a similar result. | |
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