| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me 20:53 - Jul 13 with 2591 views | LegendofthePhoenix |
Many Town fans, on here and elsewhere, have been vocal in criticising Toto Nsiala as being a liability, full of mistakes, yellow /red cards etc.
I have concerns that because Toto is a big guy and has black skin, that in the spur of the moment, referees may make a split second decision to yellow card him or award a free kick against him. Several times I have wondered if a white player or lighter skinned player would have had the decision go against them for the same offence. I'm not saying Toto never makes mistakes, what I am saying is I can't help thinking that his appearance may count against him when a ref is making a split second decision. I don't know if there are any stats anywhere on the number of yellow and red cards against players taking skin colour into account, but I would like to know if there is such data and whether it points towards any inherent bias from referees. |  |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:46 - Jul 13 with 611 views | LegendofthePhoenix |
Just to clarify my OP, I'm not accusing fans or refs of any conscious bias. Refs have to make split second decisions in a pretty heated environment. One or two replies above have given links to studies elsewhere that have shown that unconscious bias can exist. I personally thought there were a few occasions - more than I would have expected - when refereeing decisions went more harshly against Toto, which is when I began to wonder if in that split second, the look of a player can be in factor in the referee's decision.
Any study would need to take into account a lot of player data on things such as number of tackles made, minutes played etc. Maybe there is no bias, maybe there is. But if I were a black central defender, I would like to see some data to know that I wasn't suffering from unconscious referee bias. | |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:52 - Jul 13 with 573 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:46 - Jul 13 by LegendofthePhoenix |
Just to clarify my OP, I'm not accusing fans or refs of any conscious bias. Refs have to make split second decisions in a pretty heated environment. One or two replies above have given links to studies elsewhere that have shown that unconscious bias can exist. I personally thought there were a few occasions - more than I would have expected - when refereeing decisions went more harshly against Toto, which is when I began to wonder if in that split second, the look of a player can be in factor in the referee's decision.
Any study would need to take into account a lot of player data on things such as number of tackles made, minutes played etc. Maybe there is no bias, maybe there is. But if I were a black central defender, I would like to see some data to know that I wasn't suffering from unconscious referee bias. |
...so you are suggesting unconscious bias. Your last sentence kind of contradicted your first.
It's ok to suggest that if you like, but stand by it.
I personally don't think there is anything in it, but that's just an opinion. |  |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:07 - Jul 13 with 580 views | BlueForYou |
I thought most referees were blind anyway so wouldn’t see who was fouling & who wasn’t..!! 😀 |  | | |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:07 - Jul 13 with 580 views | LegendofthePhoenix |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:52 - Jul 13 by Marshalls_Mullet |
...so you are suggesting unconscious bias. Your last sentence kind of contradicted your first.
It's ok to suggest that if you like, but stand by it.
I personally don't think there is anything in it, but that's just an opinion. |
Err, I don't see any contradiction, sorry. I'm suggesting that refs may possibly exhibit unconscious bias. This could be tested if a large scale study was conducted. The attached link is a Danish study of football commentary form 80 matches, which showed clear (but no doubt unconscious) bias from the commentators. If the commentators show unconscious bias, isn't it very possible that referees may too?
https://runrepeat.com/racial-bias-study-soccer | |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:12 - Jul 13 with 571 views | jeera |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:07 - Jul 13 by LegendofthePhoenix |
Err, I don't see any contradiction, sorry. I'm suggesting that refs may possibly exhibit unconscious bias. This could be tested if a large scale study was conducted. The attached link is a Danish study of football commentary form 80 matches, which showed clear (but no doubt unconscious) bias from the commentators. If the commentators show unconscious bias, isn't it very possible that referees may too?
https://runrepeat.com/racial-bias-study-soccer |
Of course it's possible and it would make for an interesting and maybe enlightening study.
In Toto's case though we all know and have come to expect some rash decision making from him so unlikely too much to be read into that as it stands.
Maybe you made your point in the OP a little clumsily but the question you ask isn't a bad one. |  |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:12 - Jul 13 with 574 views | Darth_Koont |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 21:52 - Jul 13 by Marshalls_Mullet |
...so you are suggesting unconscious bias. Your last sentence kind of contradicted your first.
It's ok to suggest that if you like, but stand by it.
I personally don't think there is anything in it, but that's just an opinion. |
An opinion about unconscious bias is irrelevant.
It’s a fair question and we need data. Unfortunately, it’s likely that unconscious bias does exist in football as in many other areas. And it takes pointing that out to remove it.
Or disproving it. But the onus is on disproving it based upon what we know about unconscious bias in almost all fields. |  |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:13 - Jul 13 with 552 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:07 - Jul 13 by LegendofthePhoenix |
Err, I don't see any contradiction, sorry. I'm suggesting that refs may possibly exhibit unconscious bias. This could be tested if a large scale study was conducted. The attached link is a Danish study of football commentary form 80 matches, which showed clear (but no doubt unconscious) bias from the commentators. If the commentators show unconscious bias, isn't it very possible that referees may too?
https://runrepeat.com/racial-bias-study-soccer |
Accusing and suggesting (based on what you had seen) are pretty close bed fellows I would say.
Anything is possible in terms of unconscious bias of course.
Looking at disciplinary records suggests its not the case.
Happy to agree to differ. (Until someone does a PHD on this particular hypothesis). | |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:14 - Jul 13 with 548 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:07 - Jul 13 by BlueForYou |
I thought most referees were blind anyway so wouldn’t see who was fouling & who wasn’t..!! 😀 |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:15 - Jul 13 with 541 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:12 - Jul 13 by Darth_Koont |
An opinion about unconscious bias is irrelevant.
It’s a fair question and we need data. Unfortunately, it’s likely that unconscious bias does exist in football as in many other areas. And it takes pointing that out to remove it.
Or disproving it. But the onus is on disproving it based upon what we know about unconscious bias in almost all fields. |
True, might be unconscious bias, might not be.
Ok to have differing views. | |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:19 - Jul 13 with 553 views | jaykay |
are you talking about the player who was booked only twice last season and 3 times the season before or someone else |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:19 - Jul 13 with 548 views | Darth_Koont |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:15 - Jul 13 by Marshalls_Mullet |
True, might be unconscious bias, might not be.
Ok to have differing views. |
Sure. But our views are irrelevant compared to the truth.
Asking the question isn’t a problem if there is no bias, and it’s useful if there is, right?
But I’ll repeat that unconscious bias is present in almost all fields, and always those involving human judgement. | |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:22 - Jul 13 with 521 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:19 - Jul 13 by Darth_Koont |
Sure. But our views are irrelevant compared to the truth.
Asking the question isn’t a problem if there is no bias, and it’s useful if there is, right?
But I’ll repeat that unconscious bias is present in almost all fields, and always those involving human judgement. |
Yup, I am not denying its a thing, and I'd be interested to see the outcome of any review.
I'd be suprised if it concluded any bias on the part of the refs. | |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:25 - Jul 13 with 530 views | Darth_Koont |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:22 - Jul 13 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Yup, I am not denying its a thing, and I'd be interested to see the outcome of any review.
I'd be suprised if it concluded any bias on the part of the refs. |
Me too. In a way it would be surprising if they hadn’t addressed it before.
But having said that, the NBA didn’t and that was proportionally a lot more black players going back decades. | |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:29 - Jul 13 with 526 views | BlueBadger |
He's been criticised for being rubbish.
Which is quite the step up from the very white Norwood, who's been criticised for being rubbish, fat, unfit and a criminal. |  |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 18:40 - Jul 14 with 414 views | braveblue |
How to create an issue out of something with no evidence whatsoever!!! |  | | |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 18:58 - Jul 14 with 410 views | jeera |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 18:40 - Jul 14 by braveblue |
How to create an issue out of something with no evidence whatsoever!!! |
You haven't understood a word have you. | |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 19:16 - Jul 14 with 393 views | jayessess |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:22 - Jul 13 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Yup, I am not denying its a thing, and I'd be interested to see the outcome of any review.
I'd be suprised if it concluded any bias on the part of the refs. |
Given what we know about how racial prejudice operates, it'd be surprising not to find any, wouldn't it? There's tonnes of research showing that on a societal level people in authority often treat black men prejudicially in recruitment, policing, education etc. Why would you expect all football referees to be impervious? |  |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 19:40 - Jul 14 with 382 views | eireblue |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 19:16 - Jul 14 by jayessess |
Given what we know about how racial prejudice operates, it'd be surprising not to find any, wouldn't it? There's tonnes of research showing that on a societal level people in authority often treat black men prejudicially in recruitment, policing, education etc. Why would you expect all football referees to be impervious? |
You raise an interesting point.
Unconscious bias exists in society, that has been demonstrated in many different studies, in different situations.
Referee decisions have also been shown to have bias in other studies, e.g. favouring home or more successful teams.
So referees demonstrate a bias, and society demonstrates bias.
If referees display no racial bias, then that would be an interesting thing. |  | | |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 20:39 - Jul 14 with 373 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 18:58 - Jul 14 by jeera |
You haven't understood a word have you. |
Par for the course from that poster. |  |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:05 - Jul 14 with 354 views | jeera |
| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 20:39 - Jul 14 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Par for the course from that poster. |
Seems that way sometimes.
When I first read the OP I thought it over the top but that was more my misunderstanding his point than disagreeing with it.
If matey read through the thread he would see what the guy was getting at and it makes perfect sense to wonder about unconscious bias.
I didn't really want to bring up Dalian but do we never learn about bias and how it affects decision making? I'm damn sure I've been guilty of it in my past but by listening and learning we get to address these things. | |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:13 - Jul 14 with 336 views | 26_Paz |
I said on here a few times last season how much he had improved and how well he was playing. I think he has a role to play next season but come on mate, to suggest that any of the various calamities he’s had is down to anything other than clumsy defending is crazy |  |
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| On the subject of racism in football, something that has been bothering me on 22:25 - Jul 14 with 328 views | PrideOfTheEast |
Doubt that very much. He’s simply a poor footballer - I’ll never forget his performance at Accrington for our first defeat in the season before last.
I actually think he could have been sent off/carded more than he has been. | | | |
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