| Nail on head from the Daily Mail 08:16 - Aug 16 with 4432 views | bluelagos |
Not a time for gloating, rather for thinking about the many people affected and what they will be going through. Many of the friends, relatives and colleagues of those who served and lost their lives in Afghanistan must be in pieces this weekend.
And those we have abandoned to the horrors of life under the Taliban, utterly shameful how this has panned out. |  |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 08:42 - Aug 16 with 3193 views | Guthrum |
I don't know that anyone is in a position to gloat over this situation. Not even the Taliban, who have simply had an opportunity drop into their laps.
In answer to the Mail's question: They died attempting to create and uphold a civil, liberal and democratic society in Afghanistan, for two decades denying a base of operations for those planning attacks upon the Western world - including the UK. The fact that ultimately collapsed should not reflect badly upon what they were trying to achieve. This wasn't rapacious colonial exploitation, it was striving to make a better world (as most of us see it). |  |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 08:57 - Aug 16 with 3118 views | bluelagos |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 08:42 - Aug 16 by Guthrum |
I don't know that anyone is in a position to gloat over this situation. Not even the Taliban, who have simply had an opportunity drop into their laps.
In answer to the Mail's question: They died attempting to create and uphold a civil, liberal and democratic society in Afghanistan, for two decades denying a base of operations for those planning attacks upon the Western world - including the UK. The fact that ultimately collapsed should not reflect badly upon what they were trying to achieve. This wasn't rapacious colonial exploitation, it was striving to make a better world (as most of us see it). |
Just some anti war collation types getting on their high horses over Blair. | |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:03 - Aug 16 with 3086 views | Guthrum |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 08:57 - Aug 16 by bluelagos |
Just some anti war collation types getting on their high horses over Blair. |
Which ignores the fact that terrorist atrocities including 9/11 were planned and trained at bases in Afghanistan, operating under Taliban government protection. Unlike Iraq, this was a direct strike against the source of attacks upon the countries who then invaded. | |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:10 - Aug 16 with 3043 views | bluelagos |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:03 - Aug 16 by Guthrum |
Which ignores the fact that terrorist atrocities including 9/11 were planned and trained at bases in Afghanistan, operating under Taliban government protection. Unlike Iraq, this was a direct strike against the source of attacks upon the countries who then invaded. |
The biggest fckwit take I've read
She is referring to Brexit (as is clear on her other posts) - I despair at the fckwittery of some people who would use what is happening in Afghanistan to try and score an internet point about Brexit.
I am a remainer but how your first thoughts can be over Brexit - ffs. Know it's only 1 moron on twitter but seriously? | |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:14 - Aug 16 with 3016 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 08:42 - Aug 16 by Guthrum |
I don't know that anyone is in a position to gloat over this situation. Not even the Taliban, who have simply had an opportunity drop into their laps.
In answer to the Mail's question: They died attempting to create and uphold a civil, liberal and democratic society in Afghanistan, for two decades denying a base of operations for those planning attacks upon the Western world - including the UK. The fact that ultimately collapsed should not reflect badly upon what they were trying to achieve. This wasn't rapacious colonial exploitation, it was striving to make a better world (as most of us see it). |
This.
They were successful for 20 years in stopping Afghanistan from being a safe haven and power base for terrorists and terrorism.
Maybe US and UK got fed up seeing all the millions of £'s being pocketed by corrupt Afghan officials. Maybe they warned them for years that they had better clean up.
I don't know. Personally I would have left a military presence there or at least given air support.
I don't know what to think. It's an iceberg.
I can understand though why families of dead soldiers would be asking questions |  |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:15 - Aug 16 with 3000 views | wkj |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:10 - Aug 16 by bluelagos |
The biggest fckwit take I've read
She is referring to Brexit (as is clear on her other posts) - I despair at the fckwittery of some people who would use what is happening in Afghanistan to try and score an internet point about Brexit.
I am a remainer but how your first thoughts can be over Brexit - ffs. Know it's only 1 moron on twitter but seriously? |
Clearly she's talking about Hurst's time at ITFC and not Brexit.
However, yes - This is the type of nonsense that has been created by tribalism. What do you expect though, the world is full of experts that know how the Afganistan withdrawal shouldn't be done - but not very many seem to know how it should have been done.
I don't think many people would have bet against this happening at any point following a withdrawal, whether it happened sooner or later. [Post edited 16 Aug 2021 9:23]
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:22 - Aug 16 with 2957 views | Ftnfwest |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:14 - Aug 16 by Lord_Lucan |
This.
They were successful for 20 years in stopping Afghanistan from being a safe haven and power base for terrorists and terrorism.
Maybe US and UK got fed up seeing all the millions of £'s being pocketed by corrupt Afghan officials. Maybe they warned them for years that they had better clean up.
I don't know. Personally I would have left a military presence there or at least given air support.
I don't know what to think. It's an iceberg.
I can understand though why families of dead soldiers would be asking questions |
Agree on the families and its basically down to the speed of what's happened that's caused the most problems. Ultimately if you train up and equip an army over a period of years so that it also outnumbers your opponents 4:1, you'd reasonably expect them to be able to maintain power to some degree at least. |  | | |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:22 - Aug 16 with 2948 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:14 - Aug 16 by Lord_Lucan |
This.
They were successful for 20 years in stopping Afghanistan from being a safe haven and power base for terrorists and terrorism.
Maybe US and UK got fed up seeing all the millions of £'s being pocketed by corrupt Afghan officials. Maybe they warned them for years that they had better clean up.
I don't know. Personally I would have left a military presence there or at least given air support.
I don't know what to think. It's an iceberg.
I can understand though why families of dead soldiers would be asking questions |
I got the impression UK gov not happy about it and even tried to drum up support from Europe to maintain forces in Afghanistan. |  |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:28 - Aug 16 with 2919 views | Steve_M |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:22 - Aug 16 by Ftnfwest |
Agree on the families and its basically down to the speed of what's happened that's caused the most problems. Ultimately if you train up and equip an army over a period of years so that it also outnumbers your opponents 4:1, you'd reasonably expect them to be able to maintain power to some degree at least. |
"Ultimately if you train up and equip an army over a period of years so that it also outnumbers your opponents 4:1, you'd reasonably expect them to be able to maintain power to some degree at least."#
Depends if they rely on US contractors for logistics and to to maintain the airforce. Those people leaving as well, and so rapidly, seems to be a big part of the problem.
A total, and bi-partisan, moral failure from the US going back to Trump and Pompeo's 'deal' with the Taliban last year and compounded by Biden's dogmatic decision to withdraw. |  |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:30 - Aug 16 with 2904 views | Guthrum |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:14 - Aug 16 by Lord_Lucan |
This.
They were successful for 20 years in stopping Afghanistan from being a safe haven and power base for terrorists and terrorism.
Maybe US and UK got fed up seeing all the millions of £'s being pocketed by corrupt Afghan officials. Maybe they warned them for years that they had better clean up.
I don't know. Personally I would have left a military presence there or at least given air support.
I don't know what to think. It's an iceberg.
I can understand though why families of dead soldiers would be asking questions |
I believe that's a lot of the reason the US and NATO decided to pack up, along with the steady drip of killed and wounded. Plus some unwarranted optimism among senior presidential advisors.
As long as we retained a presence in the country, there would be that drain on lives and treasure. With no other ending in sight. | |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:30 - Aug 16 with 2898 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:28 - Aug 16 by Steve_M |
"Ultimately if you train up and equip an army over a period of years so that it also outnumbers your opponents 4:1, you'd reasonably expect them to be able to maintain power to some degree at least."#
Depends if they rely on US contractors for logistics and to to maintain the airforce. Those people leaving as well, and so rapidly, seems to be a big part of the problem.
A total, and bi-partisan, moral failure from the US going back to Trump and Pompeo's 'deal' with the Taliban last year and compounded by Biden's dogmatic decision to withdraw. |
Didn’t Trumps deal with Taliban include getting the guy who is now President released from prison. | |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:39 - Aug 16 with 2849 views | factual_blue |
The mail of course asks a stupid question. Stupid in that the same question can be asked of pretty well any war.
(In modern times WW2 is probably an exception when viewed from Allied eyes.) |  |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:40 - Aug 16 with 2835 views | Guthrum |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:22 - Aug 16 by Ftnfwest |
Agree on the families and its basically down to the speed of what's happened that's caused the most problems. Ultimately if you train up and equip an army over a period of years so that it also outnumbers your opponents 4:1, you'd reasonably expect them to be able to maintain power to some degree at least. |
How many people were really in the Afghan army? Some commanders were doing the old trick of claiming wages for troops which did not actually exist.
When was the last time they were paid? Some not for months. apparently.
How strong was their morale? Often bombed or shot even in barracks and training facilities, owing nominal loyalty to politicians and commanders on the make who legged it at the first sign of danger. I suspect, from what I've read, that they mostly weren't recruited from the best military material (who were already in the tribal militias).
How well did they absorb the training? Illiterate recruits attempting to use high-technology Western-style equipment. | |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 10:20 - Aug 16 with 2649 views | Price_1991 |
Part of the issue is the fact that surrounding countries became safe havens for the Taliban while British and American troops where in the Afghanistan. As soon as they pulled out the Taliban came back in without any resistance due to the fact the Afgan army and Police we not fully equipped to deal with them.
Personally I think both Pakistan and Iran should have more pressure put on them to help the people of Afghanistan in eradicating the main portion of the Taliban and help to create a stable government and military force to ensure the people can live a life in peace. |  | | |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 10:45 - Aug 16 with 2544 views | bluelagos |
Just emailed my MP. Had to rewrite it to keep it polite but hopefully people will do the same. Takes 2 minutes...
https://members.parliament.uk/FindYourMP
James
Absolutely shocking and shameful how we appear to have abandoned the people of Afghanistan to the horrors of life under the Taliban. You won't need me to spell out what that means, especially for women and girls.
Additionally am sure there will be thousands of relatives, friends and colleagues of killed and injured British serviceman devastated at the way things are panning out.
As an absolute minimum, can I press on you the obligation we have to assist the local Afghanis who assisted us at great personal risk to themselves and their families.
I appreciate that the common mood in the country is often anti-migrant / refugees and there are not many votes to be won on this issue. But times like these need good people to speak up. You have the opportunity to be a voice in cabinet, much like Johnny Mercer and Tom Tugendhat have done from the bench benches.
On a human level we owe these people much and to not assist them as much as possible would be unforgivable. I urge you to do all you can to be a voice for these people to whom we owe so much | |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 11:08 - Aug 16 with 2444 views | factual_blue |
If you and others haven't already seen it, Adam Curtis' film Bitter Lake (on iPlayer) is a must-see.
It's about the entire involvement of the West in region. To cut a long story short, it's all about keeping Saudi Arabia onside.
Bitter Lake was the venue of the meeting between Harry S Truman and the Saudi king at which the Saudis were told they had a free hand so long as the oil kept flowing. This allowed Saudis to divert the problems Wahhabists caused within the kingdom to elsewhere in the region.
And also created a large part of the modern heroin problem. To support a pro-Western Afghan regime in the fifties, the Yanks spent millions on dams and irrigation, making Helmand more fertile, and creating the ideal conditions of large-scale poppy farming. | |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 11:11 - Aug 16 with 2422 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
Wasn't the time to raise the question when it was decided to withdraw and leave behind the power vacuum? It is a bit late to try to do something about it now.
A truly dreadful situation and one we now have to deal with in the best way possible but it seems like the plan for withdrawal was deeply flawed. |  |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 11:14 - Aug 16 with 2410 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:15 - Aug 16 by wkj |
Clearly she's talking about Hurst's time at ITFC and not Brexit.
However, yes - This is the type of nonsense that has been created by tribalism. What do you expect though, the world is full of experts that know how the Afganistan withdrawal shouldn't be done - but not very many seem to know how it should have been done.
I don't think many people would have bet against this happening at any point following a withdrawal, whether it happened sooner or later. [Post edited 16 Aug 2021 9:23]
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She's definitely talking about us. Although I think she's confused the Taliban for Hamo's ban. Easy mistake to make though as at that time ITFC was a regressive regime that silenced anyone who spoke out against them.
Def info. |  |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 11:17 - Aug 16 with 2369 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 10:45 - Aug 16 by bluelagos |
Just emailed my MP. Had to rewrite it to keep it polite but hopefully people will do the same. Takes 2 minutes...
https://members.parliament.uk/FindYourMP
James
Absolutely shocking and shameful how we appear to have abandoned the people of Afghanistan to the horrors of life under the Taliban. You won't need me to spell out what that means, especially for women and girls.
Additionally am sure there will be thousands of relatives, friends and colleagues of killed and injured British serviceman devastated at the way things are panning out.
As an absolute minimum, can I press on you the obligation we have to assist the local Afghanis who assisted us at great personal risk to themselves and their families.
I appreciate that the common mood in the country is often anti-migrant / refugees and there are not many votes to be won on this issue. But times like these need good people to speak up. You have the opportunity to be a voice in cabinet, much like Johnny Mercer and Tom Tugendhat have done from the bench benches.
On a human level we owe these people much and to not assist them as much as possible would be unforgivable. I urge you to do all you can to be a voice for these people to whom we owe so much |
Penultimate paragraph needs "back" before the last word instead repeated "benches". Sounds good, though.
EDIT: Might also add anyone from any other religion as well. [Post edited 16 Aug 2021 11:18]
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 11:19 - Aug 16 with 2350 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:28 - Aug 16 by Steve_M |
"Ultimately if you train up and equip an army over a period of years so that it also outnumbers your opponents 4:1, you'd reasonably expect them to be able to maintain power to some degree at least."#
Depends if they rely on US contractors for logistics and to to maintain the airforce. Those people leaving as well, and so rapidly, seems to be a big part of the problem.
A total, and bi-partisan, moral failure from the US going back to Trump and Pompeo's 'deal' with the Taliban last year and compounded by Biden's dogmatic decision to withdraw. |
We also have a history of arming the side that ends up becoming our enemy! | |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 11:21 - Aug 16 with 2339 views | RamRob |
Maybe they are all withdrawing so they can bomb the place. Not that I agree with that strategy.
I do find it hard to take that the US and UK are getting flak when other UN nations could also have been involved but chose not to. We can't be the world's police all the time.
It's a horrible situation that the only way to keep peace is to put our soldiers at risk. Yet when we pull our military out we are also in the wrong. |  |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 11:46 - Aug 16 with 2284 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 11:21 - Aug 16 by RamRob |
Maybe they are all withdrawing so they can bomb the place. Not that I agree with that strategy.
I do find it hard to take that the US and UK are getting flak when other UN nations could also have been involved but chose not to. We can't be the world's police all the time.
It's a horrible situation that the only way to keep peace is to put our soldiers at risk. Yet when we pull our military out we are also in the wrong. |
The big problem with the UN is the general lack of agreement to take action anywhere.
That said, when this is the ultimate outcome you start to see a little of one of the reasons why.
Whatever lies behind it, we need to manage the withdrawal from these situations with far better foresight. Now we are in a very messy position. | |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 12:06 - Aug 16 with 2214 views | RamRob |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 11:46 - Aug 16 by Nthsuffolkblue |
The big problem with the UN is the general lack of agreement to take action anywhere.
That said, when this is the ultimate outcome you start to see a little of one of the reasons why.
Whatever lies behind it, we need to manage the withdrawal from these situations with far better foresight. Now we are in a very messy position. |
It probably didn't help that Biden announced in advance that the US were withdrawing giving the Taliban the chance to gear up for a big offensive. | |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 12:19 - Aug 16 with 2175 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 12:06 - Aug 16 by RamRob |
It probably didn't help that Biden announced in advance that the US were withdrawing giving the Taliban the chance to gear up for a big offensive. |
Really? You really think that?  | |
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