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Hope him and his flying ark make it out 09:41 - Aug 25 with 1051 viewsgiant_stow

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/25/hope-ex-marine-rescue-cats-dogs-an

Sounds like a good man.

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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 09:58 - Aug 25 with 1008 viewsDanTheMan

Excellent news.

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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 10:23 - Aug 25 with 977 viewsGuthrum

Still a very tricky operation. With what's going on at the airport, they really can't afford to have 'planes sitting around waiting for people to turn up. I imagine it's an extremely tight schedule of landings, loading and takeoffs, especially as there's only one runway.

Hopefully they can all get to the airport in time.

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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 11:58 - Aug 25 with 910 viewsArnoldMoorhen

I'll be prepared to take stick here and say that I think it is utterly immoral for a plane to take off full of cats and dogs whilst human beings are waiting on the tarmac at the same airport, desperately hoping against hope that a space will be found for them before the 31st August deadline.

Both dogs and cats cope absolutely fine living a feral, urban, life, and would thrive even better in remote rural areas.

We need to stop seeing them as pets, and see them for what they truly are: animals adapted to live outdoors and to be hunters.
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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 12:14 - Aug 25 with 885 viewsEireannach_gorm

I assume the dogs had American passports.

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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:09 - Aug 25 with 863 viewsGuthrum

Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 11:58 - Aug 25 by ArnoldMoorhen

I'll be prepared to take stick here and say that I think it is utterly immoral for a plane to take off full of cats and dogs whilst human beings are waiting on the tarmac at the same airport, desperately hoping against hope that a space will be found for them before the 31st August deadline.

Both dogs and cats cope absolutely fine living a feral, urban, life, and would thrive even better in remote rural areas.

We need to stop seeing them as pets, and see them for what they truly are: animals adapted to live outdoors and to be hunters.


In this case, the plan appears to be for the animals to go in the hold, where humans wouldn't be carried anyway. Spare seats in the cabin to go to human evacuees.

Edit: This works with a charter airliner, but not an RAF transport 'plane.
[Post edited 25 Aug 2021 13:16]

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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:15 - Aug 25 with 845 viewsRyorry

Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:09 - Aug 25 by Guthrum

In this case, the plan appears to be for the animals to go in the hold, where humans wouldn't be carried anyway. Spare seats in the cabin to go to human evacuees.

Edit: This works with a charter airliner, but not an RAF transport 'plane.
[Post edited 25 Aug 2021 13:16]


Exactly -

I'm beginning to quite like Ben Wallace by Ryorry 24 Aug 2021 22:35
I'm not (thread explains it for those not ITK) -

https://twitter.com/HumaneAware/status/1430059206523203605?s=20



And this flight is privately funded, not taken from tax-payers (unless they specifically chose to donate to the mission).
[Post edited 25 Aug 2021 13:21]

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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:19 - Aug 25 with 838 viewsGuthrum

Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:15 - Aug 25 by Ryorry

Exactly -

I'm beginning to quite like Ben Wallace by Ryorry 24 Aug 2021 22:35
I'm not (thread explains it for those not ITK) -

https://twitter.com/HumaneAware/status/1430059206523203605?s=20



And this flight is privately funded, not taken from tax-payers (unless they specifically chose to donate to the mission).
[Post edited 25 Aug 2021 13:21]


I still agree with Wallace that animals cannot be given priority over people if directly competing for space. However, a way has been found around it.

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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:23 - Aug 25 with 827 viewsRyorry

Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:19 - Aug 25 by Guthrum

I still agree with Wallace that animals cannot be given priority over people if directly competing for space. However, a way has been found around it.


Nobody has proposed that animals should be prioritised over people, including the organiser/s of this mission.

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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:26 - Aug 25 with 814 viewsGuthrum

Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:23 - Aug 25 by Ryorry

Nobody has proposed that animals should be prioritised over people, including the organiser/s of this mission.


Would have been an issue if military transport aircraft were the only option available. However, an airliner has been chartered and approved. Which gets round the problem to everyone's satisfaction.

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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:29 - Aug 25 with 799 viewsSouperJim

Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:23 - Aug 25 by Ryorry

Nobody has proposed that animals should be prioritised over people, including the organiser/s of this mission.


Presumably they can only process a given number of living beings through the airport before the deadline... ideally everyone will get out, but I agree with the sentiment that human beings should not be left behind while cats and dogs get out.

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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:34 - Aug 25 with 791 viewsC_HealyIsAPleasure

Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:26 - Aug 25 by Guthrum

Would have been an issue if military transport aircraft were the only option available. However, an airliner has been chartered and approved. Which gets round the problem to everyone's satisfaction.


I think the issues were wider than that, in simple terms it’s another flight that needs to be managed plus the rather obvious burden that shepherding a convoy of animals through the security perimeters etc at the airport puts on the operation

Whether those ultimately impact on the ability to evacuate others I guess none of us will know for sure, but the cynic in me does wonder if this outcome has happened due to the persons background and publicity generated, rather than it being deemed the right thing to do

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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:36 - Aug 25 with 784 viewsRyorry

Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:26 - Aug 25 by Guthrum

Would have been an issue if military transport aircraft were the only option available. However, an airliner has been chartered and approved. Which gets round the problem to everyone's satisfaction.


Well I've never used the "straw man" argument before, but if I understand the term correctly, this is one instance of it!

Using a "military transport aircraft" has never been an option that anyone ever suggested, nor any plane used to *only* fly pets out, as Mr Moorhen would have known if he'd read up on the situation before posting his comment.

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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:37 - Aug 25 with 780 viewsgiant_stow

Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:34 - Aug 25 by C_HealyIsAPleasure

I think the issues were wider than that, in simple terms it’s another flight that needs to be managed plus the rather obvious burden that shepherding a convoy of animals through the security perimeters etc at the airport puts on the operation

Whether those ultimately impact on the ability to evacuate others I guess none of us will know for sure, but the cynic in me does wonder if this outcome has happened due to the persons background and publicity generated, rather than it being deemed the right thing to do


Personally, the cats and dogs are side show - the 68 people in his employ/family/clan are what matters.

Presumably, they'd all be for the chop once the evacuation is over.

If they can move the animals as a side win, then great.

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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:39 - Aug 25 with 773 viewsRyorry

Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:34 - Aug 25 by C_HealyIsAPleasure

I think the issues were wider than that, in simple terms it’s another flight that needs to be managed plus the rather obvious burden that shepherding a convoy of animals through the security perimeters etc at the airport puts on the operation

Whether those ultimately impact on the ability to evacuate others I guess none of us will know for sure, but the cynic in me does wonder if this outcome has happened due to the persons background and publicity generated, rather than it being deemed the right thing to do


I can see your point re management, but basically the flight is getting people out that need to be got out. Putting some animals in the hold where nothing else would have gone is a bonus. On a previous flight, a car had been loaded for evacuation!

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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:48 - Aug 25 with 741 viewsRyorry

Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:37 - Aug 25 by giant_stow

Personally, the cats and dogs are side show - the 68 people in his employ/family/clan are what matters.

Presumably, they'd all be for the chop once the evacuation is over.

If they can move the animals as a side win, then great.


Yes, and not just the 68 people working for him would get out - the flight is able to take 250 passengers in total, and "the remaining 130 seats on the plane would be filled with at-risk Afghans".

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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:49 - Aug 25 with 742 viewsGuthrum

Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:37 - Aug 25 by giant_stow

Personally, the cats and dogs are side show - the 68 people in his employ/family/clan are what matters.

Presumably, they'd all be for the chop once the evacuation is over.

If they can move the animals as a side win, then great.


He and his staff always had, or were going to get, approval to leave. It was only ever a matter of logistics regarding the animals.

Whether any of them can make it to the airport in time is another issue.

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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:49 - Aug 25 with 740 viewsC_HealyIsAPleasure

Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:37 - Aug 25 by giant_stow

Personally, the cats and dogs are side show - the 68 people in his employ/family/clan are what matters.

Presumably, they'd all be for the chop once the evacuation is over.

If they can move the animals as a side win, then great.


They’d already been given clearance to go though, the fuss was that the government was refusing to accommodate bringing the animals aswell as this would jeopardise getting other people out in time

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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:53 - Aug 25 with 729 viewsGuthrum

Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:36 - Aug 25 by Ryorry

Well I've never used the "straw man" argument before, but if I understand the term correctly, this is one instance of it!

Using a "military transport aircraft" has never been an option that anyone ever suggested, nor any plane used to *only* fly pets out, as Mr Moorhen would have known if he'd read up on the situation before posting his comment.


It was just a logistical prioritising issue, which has been solved. Nobody is going to be left behind because these animals are brought out.

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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:53 - Aug 25 with 728 viewsC_HealyIsAPleasure

Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:39 - Aug 25 by Ryorry

I can see your point re management, but basically the flight is getting people out that need to be got out. Putting some animals in the hold where nothing else would have gone is a bonus. On a previous flight, a car had been loaded for evacuation!


It’s only a bonus though if accommodating this flight doesn’t mean another flight that would be full of passengers doesn’t happen in time

Given that clearance has now been given we can only conclude that won’t be the case - or that the publicity generated has forced the governments hand regardless

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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 14:00 - Aug 25 with 712 viewsArnoldMoorhen

Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 13:36 - Aug 25 by Ryorry

Well I've never used the "straw man" argument before, but if I understand the term correctly, this is one instance of it!

Using a "military transport aircraft" has never been an option that anyone ever suggested, nor any plane used to *only* fly pets out, as Mr Moorhen would have known if he'd read up on the situation before posting his comment.


I didn't mention military transport aircraft, so the only straw man argument being put forward is yours. It means deliberately mischaracterising somebody else's argument to then easily put it down.

However, military transport aircraft are being used, as they were on the first day of evacuations, for example here's a recent one:

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/08/25/russian-military-evacuates-500-from-af

But if you look a bit higher on this thread you can clearly see US military dogs on seats.
Meanwhile babies were crying on the tarmac the other side of the airport, where the lower priority humans are being "processed".

And you don't address my other point: dogs and cats are hunters who are forced to live un-natural lifestyles by "owners", and are adapted for a hunting lifestyle, in rural areas, or are perfectly able to live a scavenger existence in urban areas.

Plastic "beds" with nylon fleeces and tinned meat are not essential to the well-being of cats and dogs, nor are their feet particularly well adapted to, for example, tiled kitchen floors.
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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 14:07 - Aug 25 with 701 viewsNthsuffolkblue

Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 11:58 - Aug 25 by ArnoldMoorhen

I'll be prepared to take stick here and say that I think it is utterly immoral for a plane to take off full of cats and dogs whilst human beings are waiting on the tarmac at the same airport, desperately hoping against hope that a space will be found for them before the 31st August deadline.

Both dogs and cats cope absolutely fine living a feral, urban, life, and would thrive even better in remote rural areas.

We need to stop seeing them as pets, and see them for what they truly are: animals adapted to live outdoors and to be hunters.


My initial reaction was this. The value of human is (in my opinion) far above that of dogs and cats. However, the issue is not with plane capacity but rather flow through to airside. There is still an argument that dealing with the dogs and cats will almost certainly slow flow through to airside. However, how much will it do so and is it quicker to get those citizens through with the animals than it would be to try to prevent them bringing them?

The biggest issue her is that there will be people who should be evacuated who will not be able to be. Quite how the limiting factors play out in determining who that will be is impossible for me to know.

In terms of the life of the animals if they are released into the wild, are they part of the diet in Afghanistan? Again, there is a difference in how a vegan, cat and dog owner will see that to how a meat-eating, non-pet owner will.

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Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 14:16 - Aug 25 with 682 viewsArnoldMoorhen

Hope him and his flying ark make it out on 14:07 - Aug 25 by Nthsuffolkblue

My initial reaction was this. The value of human is (in my opinion) far above that of dogs and cats. However, the issue is not with plane capacity but rather flow through to airside. There is still an argument that dealing with the dogs and cats will almost certainly slow flow through to airside. However, how much will it do so and is it quicker to get those citizens through with the animals than it would be to try to prevent them bringing them?

The biggest issue her is that there will be people who should be evacuated who will not be able to be. Quite how the limiting factors play out in determining who that will be is impossible for me to know.

In terms of the life of the animals if they are released into the wild, are they part of the diet in Afghanistan? Again, there is a difference in how a vegan, cat and dog owner will see that to how a meat-eating, non-pet owner will.


The vast majority of Afghanis are Muslim, and therefore eating cats or dogs is forbidden ("haram", the opposite of "halal", allowed).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_dietary_laws#Animals_with_fangs
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