| Rory Stewart spot on again 06:53 - Sep 1 with 6184 views | bluelagos |
And as an aside - this sums up perfectly for me an issue with so many people:- Twtdrs, social media, lining up a couple of months ago to be outraged and disgusted over a couple of bell ends taking an unwanted selfie with Chris Whitty...yet barely a wimper from the same posters / mob over an unfolding humanitarian crisis evolving right in front of us all.
I despair how so many people get themselves invested in irrelevant nonsense as opposed to things that actually matter... [Post edited 1 Sep 2021 6:54]
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 08:01 - Sep 1 with 2977 views | ghostofescobar |
Well said. In life in general, if people could devote the same amount of energy into something positive as they do into something negative, we'd live in a much better place. There is enough crap in this world, so why would you want to add to it? |  |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 08:37 - Sep 1 with 2842 views | Zx1988 |
But poorly alpacas... |  |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 09:15 - Sep 1 with 2708 views | Darth_Koont |
Stewart to his credit is talking about providing humanitarian aid through NGOs and organisations like UNICEF (which should be the basis of our “interventions” overseas anyway IMO). Rather than sending in military or using drones that de-stabilise life more for innocent Afghans than militia that is set up to fight in the first place.
But too many of our politicians, media and the general population are bored by non-military stuff – or even actively against aid and development. For them it’s about projecting Global Britain and influence, it’s never really been about women and children who bear the brunt of a military intervention anyway. |  |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 09:36 - Sep 1 with 2647 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
I haven't posted much about Afghanistan because I find it unbearably sad, and I don't know what the answers are anyway.
The first mistake was Blair's in going in with gung-ho Dubya in the first place. After Kosovo, sadly, Blair seems to have seen himself as some sort of Messiah who could solve the world's problems with a few Tornado air strikes followed up by peace keeping boots on the ground.
Trump's vanity in thinking that he was the only person who could do a deal with the Taliban, and Biden's failure to work up a sensible plan for such a withdrawal, have created another humanitarian crisis which shames them, and us as their junior partners for the whole sorry episode.
Rory Stewart is right about many things. I hope that sensible Tory voters can reflect on the fact that he was sacked by text as an MP, and realise that the current mob of bluffers and bull-shtters are a very long way from the principles of integrity in public office which were upheld by Thatcher and Major.
And it is true that a large number of the British population cared more about cats and dogs in Afghanistan than they ever have, or will, about Afghani children, women or men.
It's all unbearably sad. | | | |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 10:09 - Sep 1 with 2541 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 09:36 - Sep 1 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I haven't posted much about Afghanistan because I find it unbearably sad, and I don't know what the answers are anyway.
The first mistake was Blair's in going in with gung-ho Dubya in the first place. After Kosovo, sadly, Blair seems to have seen himself as some sort of Messiah who could solve the world's problems with a few Tornado air strikes followed up by peace keeping boots on the ground.
Trump's vanity in thinking that he was the only person who could do a deal with the Taliban, and Biden's failure to work up a sensible plan for such a withdrawal, have created another humanitarian crisis which shames them, and us as their junior partners for the whole sorry episode.
Rory Stewart is right about many things. I hope that sensible Tory voters can reflect on the fact that he was sacked by text as an MP, and realise that the current mob of bluffers and bull-shtters are a very long way from the principles of integrity in public office which were upheld by Thatcher and Major.
And it is true that a large number of the British population cared more about cats and dogs in Afghanistan than they ever have, or will, about Afghani children, women or men.
It's all unbearably sad. |
Biden’s comments, and actions, are for home consumption. Reading US friends comments on Facebook you would believe that the US alone were involved in bringing people out of Kabul.
One asked me why UK, and other European countries, hadn’t publicly thanked the US for the repatriation of their people from Afghanistan. |  |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 10:20 - Sep 1 with 2493 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 10:09 - Sep 1 by Pinewoodblue |
Biden’s comments, and actions, are for home consumption. Reading US friends comments on Facebook you would believe that the US alone were involved in bringing people out of Kabul.
One asked me why UK, and other European countries, hadn’t publicly thanked the US for the repatriation of their people from Afghanistan. |
Sure. And the performative stuff in our HoC and in the papers was much the same – little desire to look at the situation objectively, little self-reflection and little remorse.
The pullout was on the cards for 18 months, Biden even extended it. But the stark revelation to the UK politicians, media and population that the war in Afghanistan was a failure at great human cost sees us retreat further into self-delusion and blaming others.
We need to take a long, hard look at ourselves and what we’ve become. | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 12:40 - Sep 1 with 2291 views | bluelagos |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 08:37 - Sep 1 by Zx1988 |
But poorly alpacas... |
Beggars belief doesn't it. | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 12:41 - Sep 1 with 2282 views | Digger77 |
Imagine if Trump was still POTUS!
Imagine! | | | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 12:46 - Sep 1 with 2259 views | bluelagos |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 09:36 - Sep 1 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I haven't posted much about Afghanistan because I find it unbearably sad, and I don't know what the answers are anyway.
The first mistake was Blair's in going in with gung-ho Dubya in the first place. After Kosovo, sadly, Blair seems to have seen himself as some sort of Messiah who could solve the world's problems with a few Tornado air strikes followed up by peace keeping boots on the ground.
Trump's vanity in thinking that he was the only person who could do a deal with the Taliban, and Biden's failure to work up a sensible plan for such a withdrawal, have created another humanitarian crisis which shames them, and us as their junior partners for the whole sorry episode.
Rory Stewart is right about many things. I hope that sensible Tory voters can reflect on the fact that he was sacked by text as an MP, and realise that the current mob of bluffers and bull-shtters are a very long way from the principles of integrity in public office which were upheld by Thatcher and Major.
And it is true that a large number of the British population cared more about cats and dogs in Afghanistan than they ever have, or will, about Afghani children, women or men.
It's all unbearably sad. |
"And it is true that a large number of the British population cared more about cats and dogs in Afghanistan than they ever have, or will, about Afghani children, women or men. "
We have had a twitter storm trying to help Pen Farthing get 200 cats and dogs out of Kabul. Great that he was successful in getting them out but what about his Afghan staff ffs? Real people now at huge risk to their personal safety and where is the noise? Something is properly messed up imho.
I also read today we have thus far only managed to get half of the female Afghan MPs out, leaving the rest to endure the dangers of a border run to escape a country where their lives are in huge danger. [Post edited 1 Sep 2021 13:41]
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 12:47 - Sep 1 with 2254 views | The_Last_Baron |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 12:41 - Sep 1 by Digger77 |
Imagine if Trump was still POTUS!
Imagine! |
He will be in 2025. |  |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 12:54 - Sep 1 with 2234 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 12:47 - Sep 1 by The_Last_Baron |
He will be in 2025. |
No chance.
But if there is a tiny chance he gets nominated and then elected, what does that say about the US, the levels of ignorance and the utter state of the ineffectual centrism that enables such dead-brained right-wing populism? And by extension our own democracy, economy and society that shadow the US for the most part? | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 12:55 - Sep 1 with 2225 views | bluelagos |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 10:20 - Sep 1 by Darth_Koont |
Sure. And the performative stuff in our HoC and in the papers was much the same – little desire to look at the situation objectively, little self-reflection and little remorse.
The pullout was on the cards for 18 months, Biden even extended it. But the stark revelation to the UK politicians, media and population that the war in Afghanistan was a failure at great human cost sees us retreat further into self-delusion and blaming others.
We need to take a long, hard look at ourselves and what we’ve become. |
Listening to Biden, Raab (and to a lesser extent Johnson) trying to present the past 2 weeks as some form of success sticks in the throat. They knew 18 months ago of the agreement with the Taliban (rightly or wrongly) and it seems that we now end up with 8000+ (Sunday Times) people left to find their own way out of Afghanistan to safety.
These people who helped our soldiers, government, charities and many face the real prospect of being killed. Whole thing is utterly shameful and some politicians try to present it as a success? | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 12:57 - Sep 1 with 2197 views | Digger77 |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 12:47 - Sep 1 by The_Last_Baron |
He will be in 2025. |
Nailed on. Return of the Don. | | | |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 13:01 - Sep 1 with 2173 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 12:55 - Sep 1 by bluelagos |
Listening to Biden, Raab (and to a lesser extent Johnson) trying to present the past 2 weeks as some form of success sticks in the throat. They knew 18 months ago of the agreement with the Taliban (rightly or wrongly) and it seems that we now end up with 8000+ (Sunday Times) people left to find their own way out of Afghanistan to safety.
These people who helped our soldiers, government, charities and many face the real prospect of being killed. Whole thing is utterly shameful and some politicians try to present it as a success? |
This is what happens in a failed war though.
If the British government (and the cheerleading media) didn’t know what was coming then they’re thicker, more incurious and more uncaring than even I gave them credit for. | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 13:26 - Sep 1 with 2108 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 12:54 - Sep 1 by Darth_Koont |
No chance.
But if there is a tiny chance he gets nominated and then elected, what does that say about the US, the levels of ignorance and the utter state of the ineffectual centrism that enables such dead-brained right-wing populism? And by extension our own democracy, economy and society that shadow the US for the most part? |
Have you taken into account the fact Boris Johnson was elected with a big majority. | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 13:26 - Sep 1 with 2104 views | bluelagos |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 13:01 - Sep 1 by Darth_Koont |
This is what happens in a failed war though.
If the British government (and the cheerleading media) didn’t know what was coming then they’re thicker, more incurious and more uncaring than even I gave them credit for. |
There's two different discussion points here Darth. The rights and wrongs of military intervention (in 2001) is one.
And there is the humanitarian / development one. Having worked in that field (in Liberia, Kenya and Malawi) I can assure you the very first thing you need before you can provide aid or see development, is peace. In a post war setting you simply won't get development until people have faith they can get on with (re)building their lives in peace.
Transitioning from a military intervention to a development one was never going to be easy or quick, but listening to Biden yesterday he has basically washed his hands of the development role, seemingly zero interest in helping people to build a safe and secure society.
And be clear what it means, it means abandoning millions of Afghans to a worse future, an oppressed future where the rights of woman and minorities is far from certain. And it quite possibly means civil war lies ahead.
And also an environment where Islamic extremism could well flourish with all the consequences of that.
Failed war? I'll agree it's been a failed strategy - or at least a strategy that has failed as we abandoned it - and the Afghan people - and walked away whilst washing our hands of our responsibilities...
A humanitarian disaster, a civil war, increased terrorism - that's a hell of a price likely to be paid... | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 13:27 - Sep 1 with 2099 views | chicoazul |
When you say spot on again we are talking about the same Rory Stewart I often read about who is, quite famously, wrong about everything almost all the time? |  |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 13:29 - Sep 1 with 2088 views | bluelagos |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 13:27 - Sep 1 by chicoazul |
When you say spot on again we are talking about the same Rory Stewart I often read about who is, quite famously, wrong about everything almost all the time? |
Go troll someone else you knob. Not in the mood for it. | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 13:52 - Sep 1 with 2024 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 13:26 - Sep 1 by Pinewoodblue |
Have you taken into account the fact Boris Johnson was elected with a big majority. |
Absolutely – he’s the clearest symptom of what I’m talking about in UK terms. | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 13:58 - Sep 1 with 2011 views | NthQldITFC |
The IPCC's Sixth Assessment Report was only front page news for one day! |  |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 14:04 - Sep 1 with 1986 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 13:26 - Sep 1 by bluelagos |
There's two different discussion points here Darth. The rights and wrongs of military intervention (in 2001) is one.
And there is the humanitarian / development one. Having worked in that field (in Liberia, Kenya and Malawi) I can assure you the very first thing you need before you can provide aid or see development, is peace. In a post war setting you simply won't get development until people have faith they can get on with (re)building their lives in peace.
Transitioning from a military intervention to a development one was never going to be easy or quick, but listening to Biden yesterday he has basically washed his hands of the development role, seemingly zero interest in helping people to build a safe and secure society.
And be clear what it means, it means abandoning millions of Afghans to a worse future, an oppressed future where the rights of woman and minorities is far from certain. And it quite possibly means civil war lies ahead.
And also an environment where Islamic extremism could well flourish with all the consequences of that.
Failed war? I'll agree it's been a failed strategy - or at least a strategy that has failed as we abandoned it - and the Afghan people - and walked away whilst washing our hands of our responsibilities...
A humanitarian disaster, a civil war, increased terrorism - that's a hell of a price likely to be paid... |
I get that and agree those are certainly the conditions in Liberia, Malawi and Kenya. There we enter as peacekeepers and negotiators, end the fighting and then we’re there to help with humanitarian aid and development funds to provide peace, stability and some prosperity.
But Afghanistan was different. We entered as combatants in a larger often proxy war where Afghanistan was the battleground. Our aid and development over the next two decades wasn’t humanitarian but nation building and trying to establish a sympathetic foothold in the region.
The transition to humanitarian aid and development was missed because it was never the plan. That’s why it’s NGOs and nationally independent organisations like UNICEF that need to be the focus.
So I think the two are very much connected in the case of Afghanistan. And the only thing left was to beat a retreat and learn from our mistakes. We blew it from a humanitarian perspective from the start. | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 14:22 - Sep 1 with 1952 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 13:58 - Sep 1 by NthQldITFC |
The IPCC's Sixth Assessment Report was only front page news for one day! |
Yeah, that dropped almost without trace into the bottomless void of our politics and media.
10 or 20 years from now people are going to look back at us and just shake their heads. Like we do to the religious bigots, racists and homophobes that dominated society and the status quo before.
I almost have more sympathy for climate change deniers. | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 14:24 - Sep 1 with 1946 views | bluelagos |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 14:04 - Sep 1 by Darth_Koont |
I get that and agree those are certainly the conditions in Liberia, Malawi and Kenya. There we enter as peacekeepers and negotiators, end the fighting and then we’re there to help with humanitarian aid and development funds to provide peace, stability and some prosperity.
But Afghanistan was different. We entered as combatants in a larger often proxy war where Afghanistan was the battleground. Our aid and development over the next two decades wasn’t humanitarian but nation building and trying to establish a sympathetic foothold in the region.
The transition to humanitarian aid and development was missed because it was never the plan. That’s why it’s NGOs and nationally independent organisations like UNICEF that need to be the focus.
So I think the two are very much connected in the case of Afghanistan. And the only thing left was to beat a retreat and learn from our mistakes. We blew it from a humanitarian perspective from the start. |
I think the fact that the original intervention was military, doesn't mean the humanitarian aspect was always doomed. In Sierra Leone and Liberia to name but two, military intervention was successfully followed by development in those countries. The aid was largely channeled through NGOs and the peace keeping was always going to be by men with big guns.
Is why I am not a pacifist. Sometimes you need good men with guns to sort out bad men with guns. The alternative (civil war) happened in Liberia for years - 1/12 of the population killed and 3/4 displaced from their homes. Why would Afghanistan be any different? And do the maths on their population if something similar happens...
Sad truth is that wars leave everyone fcked up, especially those at the bottom of the foodchain. Is why those commenting (not you) that the ordinary Afghans should stand up to the Taliban are so utterly clueless in their comments, the idea that a mother with 3 kids is going to take on an armed insurgent...
Back on point - development comes in many shapes and sizes. NGOs clearly play a massive part, but so does a functioning state. A state needs to provide security, health, education etc and NGOs can only ever play a part in that. They can't function effectively in a failed state, is why supporting govt.s is seen as key part of development.
Where I suspect we have much common ground Darth, is thinking the idea that you can just replicate and impose a Western 'model' of a state on another country - that is always going to be problematic. That aspect in Afghanistan has patently failed (with respect to security and governance) - no argument from me there.
What I am seeing is a military intervention, followed by nearly 20 years of state building / humanitarian aid / NGO led development - and then bang - we just abandon the lot and fck off home and undo all the undoubted good work that was going on.
And the consequences could be horrific. I simply don't accept it was always going to be thus, the Afghans needed far better support, more time, better leadership - not being sold out and left to it, as is being done now. | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 14:31 - Sep 1 with 1930 views | Kievthegreat |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 13:26 - Sep 1 by Pinewoodblue |
Have you taken into account the fact Boris Johnson was elected with a big majority. |
Have you taken into account the fact Boris Johnson was elected by a minority of voters |  | | |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 14:48 - Sep 1 with 1894 views | jaykay |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 12:57 - Sep 1 by Digger77 |
Nailed on. Return of the Don. |
anyone want to odds up on who this past poster is |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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