| 4231 is clearly a system that works 07:33 - Sep 17 with 2784 views | muccletonjoe |
Too many teams , in higher places, play it regularly, so the next thing to look at is , how does it work ?
Because that must be a question most, if not all itfc supporters must be asking themselves regularly this season.
Without mentioning specific teams and systems, 4231 relies heavily on getting the ball from defence to attack very quickly, ( witness a few of the goals we have scored this season)
The remit of this system does not include leaving gaping holes down either flank for the opposition to expose as soon as the ball is lost.
To a large extent , this is resolved by a high press from the "3" or 2 of those 3 dropping into midfield to make a 442.
I have seen little of either under Paul Cook's supervision.
We have conceded by leaving enormous gaps around the flanks , and over-lapping wing backs scampering back into a stretched defence, who have been receiving little or no cover from the "2" in front of them.
In short , suicidal, no matter how many opportunities you create. When the opposition, starts to press, ( ie. After we score a goal) , we carry on as if its still 0-0, no extra cover to protect a lead, no tactics to revert to.
What is the need to have over- lapping wing backs when you are already leading. They need to be full backs. The midfield should be now be a 4 and the no. 10 utilised to link play. Not remain anonymous for the entire 90 minutes.
So, I hope that has gone some way to explaining how it can work.
But I won't guarantee we will be seeing anything like it tomorrow. |  | | |  |
| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 07:54 - Sep 17 with 2232 views | Oldboy |
The system may well work for other teams, but it ain't working for us at the moment. We need to win football matches quickly, Cook knows that. He has brought players he believes can play that system, but at the moment they can't. I don't care what system system he plays, I just want Ipswich to be successful. Mr Cooks problem. |  | | |
| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 07:59 - Sep 17 with 2224 views | Dubtractor |
The thing with full backs bombing on, is that you only reLly want them doing it one at a time. So if the rb bombs on, the lb tucks round to leave a back 3 with plenty of cover.
That we are so often left with a back 2 is a recipe for disaster. Especially as you say when we are already leading - there is simply no need to be that gung ho. |  |
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| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 08:12 - Sep 17 with 2176 views | ElderGrizzly |
It works if you do the right work off the ball. We aren't. |  | | |
| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 08:33 - Sep 17 with 2108 views | Chocorange |
I said very much the same as one of my points on my thread after the match v West Ham kids.
As an experienced manager , you have to say If we fans can see it , then Cook should see it and solve it… after all it’s not been just one game , watch back the goals and chances conceded this season and it’s as plain as day.
If Evans and Harper won’t tackle , chase or give protection to the back 4 , then I would consider playing Wolf as def mid in front the 2 centre half’s until Morsy is available. |  | | |
| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 08:45 - Sep 17 with 2058 views | Oldboy |
| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 08:33 - Sep 17 by Chocorange |
I said very much the same as one of my points on my thread after the match v West Ham kids.
As an experienced manager , you have to say If we fans can see it , then Cook should see it and solve it… after all it’s not been just one game , watch back the goals and chances conceded this season and it’s as plain as day.
If Evans and Harper won’t tackle , chase or give protection to the back 4 , then I would consider playing Wolf as def mid in front the 2 centre half’s until Morsy is available. |
When we signed Harper,. I went on the WBA site, as I hadn't heard of him. They said he was lazy and easy to knock off the ball. I posted that on here at the time and somebody's answer was to put up a video of his best work? Cook believes he can train him into this system, so guess we will have to wait and see. | | | |
| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 08:47 - Sep 17 with 2045 views | Metal_Hacker |
| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 07:59 - Sep 17 by Dubtractor |
The thing with full backs bombing on, is that you only reLly want them doing it one at a time. So if the rb bombs on, the lb tucks round to leave a back 3 with plenty of cover.
That we are so often left with a back 2 is a recipe for disaster. Especially as you say when we are already leading - there is simply no need to be that gung ho. |
Not making a comparison in terms of quality OBVIOUSLY but how many times have we seen both TAA and Robinson for the Bin Dippers both in the opposition penalty box when they're attacking ? Countless I'd say.One has been known to cross for the other to finish
Guess difference in being whoever plays in midfield knows their duty and can tackle ,can take one of the team , break up play , cover for his mate , can read the danger etc
I just think a few adjustments and we'll be fine - time isn't on our side though right now in terms of wanting a win |  |
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| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 08:49 - Sep 17 with 2039 views | Bluefish |
If you want it to work imo you start with the 1. Your number 9 has to hold centrally and has to be able to make the ball stick long enough for the play to transition from defence to attack
Next it is the 3 the wide players mustn't hog touchlines they have support the central forward and switch to forwards from wide players when in attack
The 10 has to equally do the transition work well and be on the ball a lot making clever short passes for the movement around them
The rest can largely do their own thing. For years we have recruited and coached so badly for this shape, it is a very tough ask of the front 4 |  |
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| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 08:52 - Sep 17 with 2025 views | chicoazul |
| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 07:59 - Sep 17 by Dubtractor |
The thing with full backs bombing on, is that you only reLly want them doing it one at a time. So if the rb bombs on, the lb tucks round to leave a back 3 with plenty of cover.
That we are so often left with a back 2 is a recipe for disaster. Especially as you say when we are already leading - there is simply no need to be that gung ho. |
It sounds like the problem cook has had is that Evans and Harper either don’t understand what they’re being asked to do - defend behind the full backs as part of the box Cook talked about with the CBs - or can’t do it yet for whatever reason. Evans has worked for Cook before in this exact system so the former sounds unlikely. |  |
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| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 08:52 - Sep 17 with 2021 views | Beckets |
| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 08:47 - Sep 17 by Metal_Hacker |
Not making a comparison in terms of quality OBVIOUSLY but how many times have we seen both TAA and Robinson for the Bin Dippers both in the opposition penalty box when they're attacking ? Countless I'd say.One has been known to cross for the other to finish
Guess difference in being whoever plays in midfield knows their duty and can tackle ,can take one of the team , break up play , cover for his mate , can read the danger etc
I just think a few adjustments and we'll be fine - time isn't on our side though right now in terms of wanting a win |
Liverpool play 433 though with a defensive midfielder whose role is to cover the two full backs. We could do likewise but Cook appears to be totally wedded to 4231. |  | | |
| The full backs, deep CM, and no 10 are not working in the system on 08:58 - Sep 17 with 2005 views | unstableblue |
... currently
You may even see Donacien starting Saturday as KVY is a bad actor
Will be interesting to see if that erodes Burn's effectiveness, but Harper /Evans should also be feeding him.
The Coulson and Edwards interface was looking more effective
Our players confidence is shot, and the system hasn't embedded
I am sure Cook is hammering some of this on the training ground |  |
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| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 09:06 - Sep 17 with 1945 views | hype313 |
When done well, it works really well, as Cook has demonstrated on many occasions.
Trouble is, the one position we didn't look at was RB, and to be fair all our eggs were in the KVY basket and he has suffered a dramatic loss of form, confidence and fitness, and as much as Donacien has been solid, he isn't the type of player that play in that formation, he gets a nosebleed when he passes the halfway line.
So we are limited on the right flank somewhat by KVY's demise. |  |
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| The full backs, deep CM, and no 10 are not working in the system on 09:11 - Sep 17 with 1926 views | chicoazul |
| The full backs, deep CM, and no 10 are not working in the system on 08:58 - Sep 17 by unstableblue |
... currently
You may even see Donacien starting Saturday as KVY is a bad actor
Will be interesting to see if that erodes Burn's effectiveness, but Harper /Evans should also be feeding him.
The Coulson and Edwards interface was looking more effective
Our players confidence is shot, and the system hasn't embedded
I am sure Cook is hammering some of this on the training ground |
Do you know what bad actor means? | |
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| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 09:21 - Sep 17 with 1911 views | itfcjoe |
https://theathletic.com/1538724/2020/01/17/tactics-front-five-liverpool-manchest
An interesting piece in The Athletic from last year basically saying how when the top sides attack it is effectively in a 2-3-5 formation....where we seem to get the balance wrong is the covering when we go.....as an example if Coulson pushes on you should end up with something like this
-------------------Walton------------------
---------Edmundson----Burgess--------
---KVY-----------Harper----------Evans---
Burns--Chaplin--Bonne--Fraser--Coulson
One full back has to go, then the other one tucks in, and the midfielder on that side covers things.
We see both going - and rather than having 5 in attack, with 5 covering the rest of the pitch, we end up with 6 in attack and 4 covering the rest of the pitch
If you are to play a 433 like Liverpool do, and then both full backs can go and the 2 CBs and 3 CMs leave you with the 5 and 5.... |  |
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| The full backs, deep CM, and no 10 are not working in the system on 09:22 - Sep 17 with 1884 views | Bluefish |
| The full backs, deep CM, and no 10 are not working in the system on 09:11 - Sep 17 by chicoazul |
Do you know what bad actor means? |
It is a horrendous new Americanism that people seem to try and crowbar into every conversation | |
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| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 09:24 - Sep 17 with 1873 views | HighgateBlue |
| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 08:49 - Sep 17 by Bluefish |
If you want it to work imo you start with the 1. Your number 9 has to hold centrally and has to be able to make the ball stick long enough for the play to transition from defence to attack
Next it is the 3 the wide players mustn't hog touchlines they have support the central forward and switch to forwards from wide players when in attack
The 10 has to equally do the transition work well and be on the ball a lot making clever short passes for the movement around them
The rest can largely do their own thing. For years we have recruited and coached so badly for this shape, it is a very tough ask of the front 4 |
I agree with that apart from the last paragraph. Our principal problems are in defence. Yet discussions of our system always obsess about bombing forward and never appear to analyse why the system (which I'm going to keep obstinately referring to as 2-7-1) lets us down so badly in defence. |  | | |
| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 09:25 - Sep 17 with 1869 views | HighgateBlue |
| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 07:54 - Sep 17 by Oldboy |
The system may well work for other teams, but it ain't working for us at the moment. We need to win football matches quickly, Cook knows that. He has brought players he believes can play that system, but at the moment they can't. I don't care what system system he plays, I just want Ipswich to be successful. Mr Cooks problem. |
There's no plan B.
Or at least, Cook has no Plan B. I would hope that Ashton and O'Leary do..... | | | |
| The full backs, deep CM, and no 10 are not working in the system on 09:26 - Sep 17 with 1872 views | chicoazul |
| The full backs, deep CM, and no 10 are not working in the system on 09:22 - Sep 17 by Bluefish |
It is a horrendous new Americanism that people seem to try and crowbar into every conversation |
Ah right. Bad actor has a proper English definition though and it’s extremely unfair to label one of our players a bad actor. I just assumed it was the poster in question showing their ignorance rather than following fashion. | |
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| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 09:28 - Sep 17 with 1855 views | Basuco |
| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 09:21 - Sep 17 by itfcjoe |
https://theathletic.com/1538724/2020/01/17/tactics-front-five-liverpool-manchest
An interesting piece in The Athletic from last year basically saying how when the top sides attack it is effectively in a 2-3-5 formation....where we seem to get the balance wrong is the covering when we go.....as an example if Coulson pushes on you should end up with something like this
-------------------Walton------------------
---------Edmundson----Burgess--------
---KVY-----------Harper----------Evans---
Burns--Chaplin--Bonne--Fraser--Coulson
One full back has to go, then the other one tucks in, and the midfielder on that side covers things.
We see both going - and rather than having 5 in attack, with 5 covering the rest of the pitch, we end up with 6 in attack and 4 covering the rest of the pitch
If you are to play a 433 like Liverpool do, and then both full backs can go and the 2 CBs and 3 CMs leave you with the 5 and 5.... |
This was known to Bolton who exploited it very effectively, four goals with their first four shots on target, which means scouts from the rest of L1 have seen exactly where our weakness is. Hopefully this has been worked on this week. |  | | |
| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 09:38 - Sep 17 with 1813 views | rickw |
England played it successfully in the summer.
The difference is Rice and Phillips seemed to have a clear understanding that their main objective is to protect the defence and win the ball.
Also with England Kyle Walker wasn't so attacking, this isn't usually the case with most teams that play this way.
When Morsy is available the system might have better balance, until then I'd suggest bringing in Carroll and moving Harper more offensive, but still making the system closer to 433 than 4231 |  |
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| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 09:38 - Sep 17 with 1810 views | Metal_Hacker |
| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 09:21 - Sep 17 by itfcjoe |
https://theathletic.com/1538724/2020/01/17/tactics-front-five-liverpool-manchest
An interesting piece in The Athletic from last year basically saying how when the top sides attack it is effectively in a 2-3-5 formation....where we seem to get the balance wrong is the covering when we go.....as an example if Coulson pushes on you should end up with something like this
-------------------Walton------------------
---------Edmundson----Burgess--------
---KVY-----------Harper----------Evans---
Burns--Chaplin--Bonne--Fraser--Coulson
One full back has to go, then the other one tucks in, and the midfielder on that side covers things.
We see both going - and rather than having 5 in attack, with 5 covering the rest of the pitch, we end up with 6 in attack and 4 covering the rest of the pitch
If you are to play a 433 like Liverpool do, and then both full backs can go and the 2 CBs and 3 CMs leave you with the 5 and 5.... |
Makes total sense and as someone has already asked , if we can see it as arm chair managers ,surely PC can right ?
If he can why can't we get the right balance ?
Is it a lack of self awareness and discipline from individual players ? | |
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| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 09:46 - Sep 17 with 1778 views | ElderGrizzly |
| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 09:25 - Sep 17 by HighgateBlue |
There's no plan B.
Or at least, Cook has no Plan B. I would hope that Ashton and O'Leary do..... |
And Cook almost boasts that he doesn't have a Plan B.
It's the most bizarre way to manage a club | | | |
| Oh I really do, but perhaps not in the context you are considering on 10:28 - Sep 17 with 1672 views | unstableblue |
| The full backs, deep CM, and no 10 are not working in the system on 09:11 - Sep 17 by chicoazul |
Do you know what bad actor means? |
In one of my lines of work 'bad actor' is a common engineering term, but should not have used here on the board, many apologies
Had nothing to do with the connotations perhaps you are considering, or as an 'americanism' as Bluefish considers
Its perhaps the perfect term for the point I was making (see below), which is we have a failure in our playing system, that is the space and openness on the right hand edge of our box which is leading to goals. Is the bad actor KVY and his positional awareness, the defensive shape itself, or cheap ball turnover up the field??? what is the root cause?? Cook's training and system, gelling of players into the system, KVY as a player... Corrective action: sack Cook, training and game time, replace KVY with Donacien, SIMPLES!!
Which one is it Chico?
"Bad Actor Management is a process by which harmful and unplanned failures are captured, prioritised and investigated to identify the root cause. Corrective actions are then developed and implemented to eliminate or mitigate a repeat failure."
"A bad actor program is designed to identify the gaps present in an organization's current reliability strategies by analyzing unplanned failures based on the impact of each failure on maintenance cost and plant downtime." | |
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| The full backs, deep CM, and no 10 are not working in the system on 10:29 - Sep 17 with 1663 views | unstableblue |
| The full backs, deep CM, and no 10 are not working in the system on 09:26 - Sep 17 by chicoazul |
Ah right. Bad actor has a proper English definition though and it’s extremely unfair to label one of our players a bad actor. I just assumed it was the poster in question showing their ignorance rather than following fashion. |
"showing their ignorance"
?!
See above, I await an apology | |
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| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 10:42 - Sep 17 with 1622 views | Swansea_Blue |
It doesn't necessarily rely on getting the ball forward quickly. The formation is separate from how its deployed. I've seen teams go direct with it, play the ball slowly forward tiki taka style and probably everything in between. You can press and win the ball high up the pitch or sit deep and only press in your own half. There are many different ways it can be deployed depending (ideally!) on your strengths.
Agree on the two sitting DMs. I've not seen enough covering from our 2 DMs for my liking. Either a DM should drop into CB and one of the CB moves to RB/LB or the CM drops into RB/LB. That's the way I've seen other teams counter the flank threat when their full back bombs on. You're right that we just seem to leave a hole. |  |
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| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 10:49 - Sep 17 with 1598 views | Bluefields |
| 4231 is clearly a system that works on 08:33 - Sep 17 by Chocorange |
I said very much the same as one of my points on my thread after the match v West Ham kids.
As an experienced manager , you have to say If we fans can see it , then Cook should see it and solve it… after all it’s not been just one game , watch back the goals and chances conceded this season and it’s as plain as day.
If Evans and Harper won’t tackle , chase or give protection to the back 4 , then I would consider playing Wolf as def mid in front the 2 centre half’s until Morsy is available. |
Has Wolf ever played in midfield at any level?
Big difference having all of the play in front you when defending to having the ability to scan 360degrees in midfield. |  | | |
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