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Labour 23:44 - Sep 21 with 6742 viewsDarth_Koont

Wow! What a sh1tshow. You have to go back to IDS to see as dysfunctional and lost an opposition as this.

The only winners are an independent Scotland. Possibly Wales and Northern Ireland too at this rate.

As bad as that sounds, not sure what else gives Westminster and our media the kick up the @rse it needs.

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Labour on 11:00 - Sep 22 with 1045 viewsC_HealyIsAPleasure

Labour on 10:36 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont

If there’s no clear water between Labour and the Tories people vote Tory. If the Labour government didn’t do enough to address regional and structural issues in our economy, people especially in the Red Wall turn to the Tories (like Scotland has already turned to the SNP from Labour). If the current Labour leadership don’t have any vision or principles then people turn to the Tories because they think unwisely they might at least be better off.

This has been going on for years and you think it’s enough to say the Tories are the problem. Come off it.


Thats true if you ignore things like, you know, the actual number of people who vote Tory

1992 - 14m
2010 - 10.7m
2015 - 11.3m
2019 - 13.9m

Highlighting crass stupidity since sometime around 2010
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Labour on 11:07 - Sep 22 with 1033 viewsRyorry

Labour on 09:55 - Sep 22 by Bluefish

Don't really ever notice you mention the Tories you only seem bothered by Labour




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Labour on 11:15 - Sep 22 with 1009 viewsitfcjoe

Labour on 10:59 - Sep 22 by Swansea_Blue

Been a massive disappointment for years, and not getting much better under Starmer. Starmer seems intelligent enough (he should be given his background), but what do labour actually stand for these days? His lack of charisma hurts them (sadly, but that's the way we've dumbed down politics). And the infighting is killing them too.

Mind you, at least they are still in people's consciousness unlike the Lib Dems. Whatever happened to them eh?


The infighting is needed to get the party back on a steady footing - it's ugly, and not ideal, and he probably won't be the person to see the benefit of it.

But the party is only ever going to be elected from a centre left position, and those on the far left of it aren't simply those wanting to push 'social democratic policies'. Yes some, even a lot, are those sort of policies, but there is so much going with it which turns people off as it is on the side of the 20% of the culture war as opposed to the 80%.

Labour will at some point need to form some sort of non-aggression, confidence and supply arrangement with the Lib Dems, and the Greens - and it is only going to happen if they are a more centralised party - as much as that upsets some people.

Labour can't pretend the country isn't socially conservative, and just plough on regardless being unpopular and 'winning the argument' - it has to be elected and in 2019 it was as far away from that happening as it has ever been, after 9 years of Tory Government.

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Labour on 11:22 - Sep 22 with 987 viewsRyorry

Labour on 10:13 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont

I think if people see the problem with this country as the Tories, then they’re not really paying attention. It’s our politics and media across the board that’s brought us here – and has done for decades.

Expecting so little from our opposition in terms of meaningful change and reversing our trajectory enables the Tories as much as anything else. Thanks to weak as p1ss Labour opposition and a period in government that barely shifted the direction of travel, the Tories have even co-opted the disillusioned and disenfranchised in England!!

To make matters worse, the current incarnation of Labour is now just as bad and pretty indistinguishable in terms of its vision.


"To make matters worse, the current incarnation of Labour is now just as bad and pretty indistinguishable in terms of its vision."

If in all seriousness you really can't see the differences currently between Labour & the current shower of lazy, corrupt, self-serving, serially-lying, uncaring, immoral bunch of treacherous Tory chancers trying to pass themselves off as our "government", then heaven help you, because we on this forum certainly can't.
And even I agree btw that Labour aren't as effective under Starmer as they might be.

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Labour on 11:31 - Sep 22 with 957 viewsBluefish

Labour on 11:22 - Sep 22 by Ryorry

"To make matters worse, the current incarnation of Labour is now just as bad and pretty indistinguishable in terms of its vision."

If in all seriousness you really can't see the differences currently between Labour & the current shower of lazy, corrupt, self-serving, serially-lying, uncaring, immoral bunch of treacherous Tory chancers trying to pass themselves off as our "government", then heaven help you, because we on this forum certainly can't.
And even I agree btw that Labour aren't as effective under Starmer as they might be.


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Labour on 11:57 - Sep 22 with 915 viewsDarth_Koont

Labour on 11:22 - Sep 22 by Ryorry

"To make matters worse, the current incarnation of Labour is now just as bad and pretty indistinguishable in terms of its vision."

If in all seriousness you really can't see the differences currently between Labour & the current shower of lazy, corrupt, self-serving, serially-lying, uncaring, immoral bunch of treacherous Tory chancers trying to pass themselves off as our "government", then heaven help you, because we on this forum certainly can't.
And even I agree btw that Labour aren't as effective under Starmer as they might be.


I’m not sure the Labour of your imagination is the same as the current Labour leadership and far too many of the PLP.

They’re a similarly “lazy, corrupt, self-serving, serially lying, uncaring, immoral bunch of treacherous chancers trying to pass themselves off as centre-left politicians and an "opposition" to the Tories”. Most of them also sabotaged Labour and the chance of getting the Tories out for 5 years (some even before that with Miliband).

“Better than the Tories” has never been enough when it comes to actually addressing and reversing the continuing structural issues in society and the economy. But also I’m not even convinced they are better any more anyway.

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Labour on 12:00 - Sep 22 with 904 viewsDarth_Koont

Labour on 11:15 - Sep 22 by itfcjoe

The infighting is needed to get the party back on a steady footing - it's ugly, and not ideal, and he probably won't be the person to see the benefit of it.

But the party is only ever going to be elected from a centre left position, and those on the far left of it aren't simply those wanting to push 'social democratic policies'. Yes some, even a lot, are those sort of policies, but there is so much going with it which turns people off as it is on the side of the 20% of the culture war as opposed to the 80%.

Labour will at some point need to form some sort of non-aggression, confidence and supply arrangement with the Lib Dems, and the Greens - and it is only going to happen if they are a more centralised party - as much as that upsets some people.

Labour can't pretend the country isn't socially conservative, and just plough on regardless being unpopular and 'winning the argument' - it has to be elected and in 2019 it was as far away from that happening as it has ever been, after 9 years of Tory Government.


What does centre-left mean to you? To me it’s social democracy which Labour doesn’t really come close to.

By European measures, current Labour are centrist moderates at very best. Certainly right of the SNP which is a fairly broad church anyway.

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Labour on 12:10 - Sep 22 with 882 viewsRyorry

Labour on 11:57 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont

I’m not sure the Labour of your imagination is the same as the current Labour leadership and far too many of the PLP.

They’re a similarly “lazy, corrupt, self-serving, serially lying, uncaring, immoral bunch of treacherous chancers trying to pass themselves off as centre-left politicians and an "opposition" to the Tories”. Most of them also sabotaged Labour and the chance of getting the Tories out for 5 years (some even before that with Miliband).

“Better than the Tories” has never been enough when it comes to actually addressing and reversing the continuing structural issues in society and the economy. But also I’m not even convinced they are better any more anyway.



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Labour on 12:40 - Sep 22 with 850 viewsDarth_Koont

Labour on 11:00 - Sep 22 by C_HealyIsAPleasure

Thats true if you ignore things like, you know, the actual number of people who vote Tory

1992 - 14m
2010 - 10.7m
2015 - 11.3m
2019 - 13.9m


Yeah, and now do the Labour one.

They’ve been losing millions of votes every election since 1997. Except for 2017 (a non-Brexit election) but then especially in 2019 (a Brexit election that Starmer and the People’s Votes bods misjudged).

The idea that Labour’s route to power is via the right and soft Toryism isn’t supported by the data. That’s actually strengthened the Tories in our FPTP system.

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Labour on 12:44 - Sep 22 with 837 viewsDarth_Koont

Labour on 12:10 - Sep 22 by Ryorry



Tell me about it. 😀

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Labour on 12:56 - Sep 22 with 819 viewsTimefliesbyintheblue

Next election odds:

Most Seats: Tories 4/9, Labour 15/8
Tory Majority; Evens
Lab Majority; 6/1

After Brexit and Covid either Tories are performing better than made out on here or/and
Labour are nothing but a disaster.
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Labour on 13:01 - Sep 22 with 802 viewsC_HealyIsAPleasure

Labour on 12:40 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont

Yeah, and now do the Labour one.

They’ve been losing millions of votes every election since 1997. Except for 2017 (a non-Brexit election) but then especially in 2019 (a Brexit election that Starmer and the People’s Votes bods misjudged).

The idea that Labour’s route to power is via the right and soft Toryism isn’t supported by the data. That’s actually strengthened the Tories in our FPTP system.


You said that if there wasn’t a distinction between Labour and Tory then people vote Tory. The Labour numbers are irrelevant that, the actual numbers show that the number of Tory voters dropped significantly when a version of Labour existed that you consider to be the Tories in red ties, and they surged with the version of Labour that you champion

I am also baffled at what data you are referring to in your last paragraph, seeing as all the relevant data (namely, Labours electoral performance relative to the Tories) shows that only one version of Labour has been successful in half a lifetime

Highlighting crass stupidity since sometime around 2010
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Labour on 13:02 - Sep 22 with 800 viewsitfcjoe

Labour on 12:00 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont

What does centre-left mean to you? To me it’s social democracy which Labour doesn’t really come close to.

By European measures, current Labour are centrist moderates at very best. Certainly right of the SNP which is a fairly broad church anyway.


Attempting to improve equality of opportunity, investing in schools and the early years, improving outcomes for the lower paid with minimum wage, looking to tax wealth rather than just focussing primarily on income.

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Labour on 13:05 - Sep 22 with 795 viewsRyorry

Labour on 12:40 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont

Yeah, and now do the Labour one.

They’ve been losing millions of votes every election since 1997. Except for 2017 (a non-Brexit election) but then especially in 2019 (a Brexit election that Starmer and the People’s Votes bods misjudged).

The idea that Labour’s route to power is via the right and soft Toryism isn’t supported by the data. That’s actually strengthened the Tories in our FPTP system.


You never would listen to Labour candidates or Labour agents, who time after time after time in the Dec '19 GE reported having front doors slammed in their faces by formerly diehard, lifelong Labour voters saying they wouldn't vote Labour whilst Corbyn was its Leader.

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Labour on 13:06 - Sep 22 with 788 viewsBlueandTruesince82

Labour on 12:40 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont

Yeah, and now do the Labour one.

They’ve been losing millions of votes every election since 1997. Except for 2017 (a non-Brexit election) but then especially in 2019 (a Brexit election that Starmer and the People’s Votes bods misjudged).

The idea that Labour’s route to power is via the right and soft Toryism isn’t supported by the data. That’s actually strengthened the Tories in our FPTP system.


But nor is there a route with the policies further to the left.

Actually labour's only election victories in the last 50 years were delivered by an almost centre, centre proponent the trouble was his victory divided the party into those aghast at what the victory costs in terms party outlook, those who celebrated and have worshiped at the font of Blair even since and those who were so annoyed atbactually being elected in the first place because there are some even still in the Labour Party that much prefer being I'm opposition anyway.

The biggest issues faced is that (rightly or wrongly) the Bristish public distrusts Labour on the economy and even in times such as this where emotive subjects such as brexit have dominated conversations so much voting still come down to the economy stupid.

Now many of you will argue that the Tories haven't done a great job of steering that either and I'm sure will present some facts and figures to support that argument which may be true. But possession is 9 tenths of tbe law and perception is 9 tenths of an election victory and so the shadow of Gordon "I've eliminated boom and bust" Brown flogging the UKs gold for peanuts before prices ricketd still looms large.

I would go so far as to say that much of labour's economics success of then 90s was built upon the work Ken Clarke did as chancellor and steering us through that initial recession in the 90s and only towards the end if their tenure, when GB had unpicked and made his own mark, did the county see what a mess he had made of it
.

Throw in the War criminal (my opinion, I imagine him a litigious sort) Tony Blairs shadow which is genesis point for so much of labour's current infighting and you have a party in mess.

Meanwhile (and lots of you won'time it) Boris is likeable, affable even and so he can ride out the troughs....unpalatable though he may be to many on here, Boris doesn't claim to be perfect, so people don't hold him to the same regard others.

God, this meandered quite a bit in the end.

Point is Labour is mess. Left left won't win elections, centre left might but it would be close. The grey man doesn't have the force of personality so Labour must wait for consistent balls ups which may not be too far away.
[Post edited 22 Sep 2021 13:36]

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Labour on 13:30 - Sep 22 with 746 viewsDarth_Koont

Labour on 13:05 - Sep 22 by Ryorry

You never would listen to Labour candidates or Labour agents, who time after time after time in the Dec '19 GE reported having front doors slammed in their faces by formerly diehard, lifelong Labour voters saying they wouldn't vote Labour whilst Corbyn was its Leader.


How did that work in 2017? Brexit and Labour’s ostensible remain position was by far the biggest factor in 2019?

I know the perception of Corbyn wasn’t great. But even with the full-on smears and lies it wasn’t the deciding factor in 2017 or 2019.

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Labour on 13:37 - Sep 22 with 724 viewsRyorry

Labour on 13:30 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont

How did that work in 2017? Brexit and Labour’s ostensible remain position was by far the biggest factor in 2019?

I know the perception of Corbyn wasn’t great. But even with the full-on smears and lies it wasn’t the deciding factor in 2017 or 2019.


I didn't say it was the case in 2017, I only mentioned 2019.

And if Corbyn wasn't responsible for Labour's positions on Brexit, then 1. who was? 2. he wasn't much of a leader; and 3. if he was, it was clearly an epic fail.

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Labour on 13:46 - Sep 22 with 709 viewsDarth_Koont

Labour on 13:02 - Sep 22 by itfcjoe

Attempting to improve equality of opportunity, investing in schools and the early years, improving outcomes for the lower paid with minimum wage, looking to tax wealth rather than just focussing primarily on income.


That’s pretty much centrism to a tee. Perhaps swinging to the right with “equality of opportunity” which is basically liberty by another name.

Being anywhere on the actual left involves looking at structural issues and inequalities rather than tinkering. What about climate change and green industry, racial/regional/age inequalities, what about actually addressing child poverty and hunger rather than relying on economic growth to do the job (and undo the job in a recession, housing, infrastructure investment, local services, mental health, social care, technical/industrial regeneration, trade and overseas development, defence reviews etc. etc. There’s a myriad of social democratic measures to bring the UK into the 21st century and prepare it for a likely challenging future.

And do you really think current Labour are committed to taxing wealth and more redistributive policies? Starmer can’t even say it when it’s an utter staple of progressive politics and to represent the wider country.

It’s weak, unimaginative stuff that Boris is inches from outflanking Labour on anyway.

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Labour on 13:49 - Sep 22 with 696 viewsDarth_Koont

Labour on 13:37 - Sep 22 by Ryorry

I didn't say it was the case in 2017, I only mentioned 2019.

And if Corbyn wasn't responsible for Labour's positions on Brexit, then 1. who was? 2. he wasn't much of a leader; and 3. if he was, it was clearly an epic fail.


Where were you in 2019?

This was the whole Change UK and People’s Vote nonsense.

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Labour on 13:54 - Sep 22 with 686 viewsDarth_Koont

Labour on 13:06 - Sep 22 by BlueandTruesince82

But nor is there a route with the policies further to the left.

Actually labour's only election victories in the last 50 years were delivered by an almost centre, centre proponent the trouble was his victory divided the party into those aghast at what the victory costs in terms party outlook, those who celebrated and have worshiped at the font of Blair even since and those who were so annoyed atbactually being elected in the first place because there are some even still in the Labour Party that much prefer being I'm opposition anyway.

The biggest issues faced is that (rightly or wrongly) the Bristish public distrusts Labour on the economy and even in times such as this where emotive subjects such as brexit have dominated conversations so much voting still come down to the economy stupid.

Now many of you will argue that the Tories haven't done a great job of steering that either and I'm sure will present some facts and figures to support that argument which may be true. But possession is 9 tenths of tbe law and perception is 9 tenths of an election victory and so the shadow of Gordon "I've eliminated boom and bust" Brown flogging the UKs gold for peanuts before prices ricketd still looms large.

I would go so far as to say that much of labour's economics success of then 90s was built upon the work Ken Clarke did as chancellor and steering us through that initial recession in the 90s and only towards the end if their tenure, when GB had unpicked and made his own mark, did the county see what a mess he had made of it
.

Throw in the War criminal (my opinion, I imagine him a litigious sort) Tony Blairs shadow which is genesis point for so much of labour's current infighting and you have a party in mess.

Meanwhile (and lots of you won'time it) Boris is likeable, affable even and so he can ride out the troughs....unpalatable though he may be to many on here, Boris doesn't claim to be perfect, so people don't hold him to the same regard others.

God, this meandered quite a bit in the end.

Point is Labour is mess. Left left won't win elections, centre left might but it would be close. The grey man doesn't have the force of personality so Labour must wait for consistent balls ups which may not be too far away.
[Post edited 22 Sep 2021 13:36]


You don’t think social democracy would clean up?

Admittedly there’s massive bad faith going around where people seem to have no shame calling it Marxism etc. But these are popular policies whenever they’re discussed outside the political and media bubble.

Your “centre left” (actually they’re centre-right but see above for why people don’t accept that) approach brings them into direct and unflattering comparison with Boris. Astonishing as that is.

But as I say, I hope this current Labour project crashes and burns so there’s at least a chance of an opposition and an alternative emerging.

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Labour on 14:03 - Sep 22 with 672 viewsBlueandTruesince82

Labour on 13:54 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont

You don’t think social democracy would clean up?

Admittedly there’s massive bad faith going around where people seem to have no shame calling it Marxism etc. But these are popular policies whenever they’re discussed outside the political and media bubble.

Your “centre left” (actually they’re centre-right but see above for why people don’t accept that) approach brings them into direct and unflattering comparison with Boris. Astonishing as that is.

But as I say, I hope this current Labour project crashes and burns so there’s at least a chance of an opposition and an alternative emerging.


I don't unless Labour can show a very transparent route towards funding.

I think people that call these things are Marxist or communism are more across the pond (Karen's claiming being asked to wear a mask is socialism seems to be a national obsession).

I think Blair was center left but I understand why people would disagree, its is a touch subjective.

For me if Labour wants powers it must be competing in the middle ground, it is from there that elections are won. Both sides have loons that shout very loud but ultimately fail to bring victory.

As I said, Labour's only election victories since before Thatcher came about because Blair did claim the middle ground and did, for a time make the the Tories look more extreme and too far to the right, until God spoke to him and told him to invade Iraq.

Of course Labour needs policies to set it apart from the Torily party but those can still be found in the center ground.

Social Democracy is a very European phrase. I don't think it resonates here

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Labour on 14:03 - Sep 22 with 672 viewsRyorry

Labour on 13:49 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont

Where were you in 2019?

This was the whole Change UK and People’s Vote nonsense.


Talk about swerve - what I *actually* said was -

"You never would listen to Labour candidates or Labour agents, who time after time after time in the Dec '19 GE reported having front doors slammed in their faces by formerly diehard, lifelong Labour voters saying they wouldn't vote Labour whilst Corbyn was its Leader".

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Labour on 14:07 - Sep 22 with 660 viewslowhouseblue

Labour on 14:03 - Sep 22 by Ryorry

Talk about swerve - what I *actually* said was -

"You never would listen to Labour candidates or Labour agents, who time after time after time in the Dec '19 GE reported having front doors slammed in their faces by formerly diehard, lifelong Labour voters saying they wouldn't vote Labour whilst Corbyn was its Leader".


for people like dk voters are an inconvenience. he knows how they should think and he couldn't care less how they actually do they think. people like dk care much more about thinking they're right than ever winning an election. in fact anything a majority of people in the Uk agreed with would, by definition, be abhorrent to dk.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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Labour on 14:36 - Sep 22 with 611 viewsitfcjoe

Labour on 13:46 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont

That’s pretty much centrism to a tee. Perhaps swinging to the right with “equality of opportunity” which is basically liberty by another name.

Being anywhere on the actual left involves looking at structural issues and inequalities rather than tinkering. What about climate change and green industry, racial/regional/age inequalities, what about actually addressing child poverty and hunger rather than relying on economic growth to do the job (and undo the job in a recession, housing, infrastructure investment, local services, mental health, social care, technical/industrial regeneration, trade and overseas development, defence reviews etc. etc. There’s a myriad of social democratic measures to bring the UK into the 21st century and prepare it for a likely challenging future.

And do you really think current Labour are committed to taxing wealth and more redistributive policies? Starmer can’t even say it when it’s an utter staple of progressive politics and to represent the wider country.

It’s weak, unimaginative stuff that Boris is inches from outflanking Labour on anyway.


It's better to aim for 'equality of opportunity' and try to address it then just talk about equality of outcome which will never happen

I just see doing things that actually affect people in the here and now as much more important - it's not to say the other stuff has to just be shelved, but ultimately - improving housing stock (existing and building more), improving education both in schools and in early years, increasing wages, strengthening workers rights, investing in the NHS/Social Care as left policies and once that are urgently needed.

I don't care if Boris outflanks Labour on it, if it means he was to actually get it done - but that just simply isn't the case.

Gove going into the 'levelling up(down?)' job is an interesting move as he seems to be able to achieve things when he has a brief........but Labour and the Conservatives have to fight for the same voters - 80% of the country broadly agrees on most issues.

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Labour on 15:06 - Sep 22 with 561 viewsDarth_Koont

Labour on 14:36 - Sep 22 by itfcjoe

It's better to aim for 'equality of opportunity' and try to address it then just talk about equality of outcome which will never happen

I just see doing things that actually affect people in the here and now as much more important - it's not to say the other stuff has to just be shelved, but ultimately - improving housing stock (existing and building more), improving education both in schools and in early years, increasing wages, strengthening workers rights, investing in the NHS/Social Care as left policies and once that are urgently needed.

I don't care if Boris outflanks Labour on it, if it means he was to actually get it done - but that just simply isn't the case.

Gove going into the 'levelling up(down?)' job is an interesting move as he seems to be able to achieve things when he has a brief........but Labour and the Conservatives have to fight for the same voters - 80% of the country broadly agrees on most issues.


This politics of the “here and now” looks pretty close to the politics of nowhere and never to me.

80% of the country agree on most of the things put in front of them. The polling for Corbyn’s policies on their own merits and how that’s even leached into Tory rhetoric shows that.

Unbelievably crap state of affairs when a genuine centre-left policy platform can’t get an airing even when it’s a) popular, b) proven to work in many other European countries and c) more needed than ever to face the challenges ahead. No, instead we’ll just have party political posturing and tinkering with people who are playing at being progressive.

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