| Labour 23:44 - Sep 21 with 6801 views | Darth_Koont |
Wow! What a sh1tshow. You have to go back to IDS to see as dysfunctional and lost an opposition as this.
The only winners are an independent Scotland. Possibly Wales and Northern Ireland too at this rate.
As bad as that sounds, not sure what else gives Westminster and our media the kick up the @rse it needs. |  |
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| Labour on 15:10 - Sep 22 with 847 views | itfcjoe |
| Labour on 15:06 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
This politics of the “here and now” looks pretty close to the politics of nowhere and never to me.
80% of the country agree on most of the things put in front of them. The polling for Corbyn’s policies on their own merits and how that’s even leached into Tory rhetoric shows that.
Unbelievably crap state of affairs when a genuine centre-left policy platform can’t get an airing even when it’s a) popular, b) proven to work in many other European countries and c) more needed than ever to face the challenges ahead. No, instead we’ll just have party political posturing and tinkering with people who are playing at being progressive. |
But it wasn't popular when seen in it's entirety, it lacked credibility. |  |
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| Labour on 15:18 - Sep 22 with 829 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Labour on 11:57 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
I’m not sure the Labour of your imagination is the same as the current Labour leadership and far too many of the PLP.
They’re a similarly “lazy, corrupt, self-serving, serially lying, uncaring, immoral bunch of treacherous chancers trying to pass themselves off as centre-left politicians and an "opposition" to the Tories”. Most of them also sabotaged Labour and the chance of getting the Tories out for 5 years (some even before that with Miliband).
“Better than the Tories” has never been enough when it comes to actually addressing and reversing the continuing structural issues in society and the economy. But also I’m not even convinced they are better any more anyway. |
The trouble is "better than the Tories" is probably all you can get right now. If you can't have exactly what you want it makes sense to go for the next best thing imo. That's why I still got married even though I stood no chance with Rachel Riley. Better that than sitting alone at home watching Countdown, with only a candle for heat and eating cat food (not quite sure where this analogy is going).
Joe says the infighting is necessary and maybe it is, but for those of us who aren't that interested in the internal workings of Labour it's a bit of a turn off.
BUT, you have every right to aim for the perfect version that would solve all our problems. There's something to be said for sticking to your principles after all. Just don't expect results in the short term (or possibly at all). |  |
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| Labour on 15:18 - Sep 22 with 829 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour on 14:03 - Sep 22 by BlueandTruesince82 |
I don't unless Labour can show a very transparent route towards funding.
I think people that call these things are Marxist or communism are more across the pond (Karen's claiming being asked to wear a mask is socialism seems to be a national obsession).
I think Blair was center left but I understand why people would disagree, its is a touch subjective.
For me if Labour wants powers it must be competing in the middle ground, it is from there that elections are won. Both sides have loons that shout very loud but ultimately fail to bring victory.
As I said, Labour's only election victories since before Thatcher came about because Blair did claim the middle ground and did, for a time make the the Tories look more extreme and too far to the right, until God spoke to him and told him to invade Iraq.
Of course Labour needs policies to set it apart from the Torily party but those can still be found in the center ground.
Social Democracy is a very European phrase. I don't think it resonates here |
The acid test is whether people think Nordic-style social democracy works for society or not. If not, then I’d like to see their workings. And if they think US-style neoliberalism is the way forward then ditto.
That social democracy is centre-left almost by definition. Starmer (and Blair for that matter) are much further to the right than that. In fact, in Nordic countries they’d be the moderate right. With the Tories even lining up alongside the far-right parties, as they used to do in the EU parliament.
So I agree with you about the Americanised view of social democracy which is often even more referred to as communism, but there’s no doubt we’ve got a healthy dose of that too.
Personally, I think a country whose centre is actually a fair bit on the right and trapped in socio-economic thinking from the previous century is in a lot of trouble when it comes to addressing the future and its new challenges. Especially considering the pig’s ear it’s made of the 2000s and 2010s. | |
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| Labour on 15:34 - Sep 22 with 806 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour on 15:18 - Sep 22 by Swansea_Blue |
The trouble is "better than the Tories" is probably all you can get right now. If you can't have exactly what you want it makes sense to go for the next best thing imo. That's why I still got married even though I stood no chance with Rachel Riley. Better that than sitting alone at home watching Countdown, with only a candle for heat and eating cat food (not quite sure where this analogy is going).
Joe says the infighting is necessary and maybe it is, but for those of us who aren't that interested in the internal workings of Labour it's a bit of a turn off.
BUT, you have every right to aim for the perfect version that would solve all our problems. There's something to be said for sticking to your principles after all. Just don't expect results in the short term (or possibly at all). |
Joe believes pretty much what he’s told I.e. that the infighting is necessary. But it really isn’t and wasn’t under Corbyn. Unfortunately people don’t see how much of this has been initiated and ramped up by the Labour right. They are pretty scummy and more interested in kicking the left than kicking out the Tories. I think that’s because they know deep down in their souls and possibly their brains that the Left is largely right on most issues compared to them.
True it’s tough to change the establishment from within (the clue is in the name) but I don’t necessarily see the answer within the current 2-party system and the Westminster bubble anyway. Not initially at least.
But I think, like UKIP but as a force for good, an external party or force can chip away at public support and change the narrative. Maybe the Greens but to be honest it could be anyone and everyone who keeps fighting for overdue change. BLM for example, renters unions, trade unions, LGBT, the Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish, the young etc.
People who basically don’t buy the platitudes because they can’t afford to. | |
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| Labour on 15:35 - Sep 22 with 804 views | noggin |
| Labour on 09:48 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
Norway did from Sweden. Iceland from Denmark. Both in the 20th century. And of course both Denmark and Finland have adopted the Euro in the EU. |
Denmark hasn't, they still have the Danish Krone. I agree with you otherwise. |  |
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| Labour on 15:40 - Sep 22 with 781 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour on 15:10 - Sep 22 by itfcjoe |
But it wasn't popular when seen in it's entirety, it lacked credibility. |
Why? Because you were told it wasn’t credible by the media and even the Labour right briefing from within the party?
It must be a constant amazement to you how other countries manage this stuff. Or how we made the much bigger investment of paying for Covid just to stay still and not even make society better. | |
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| Labour on 15:40 - Sep 22 with 778 views | chicoazul |
| Labour on 15:35 - Sep 22 by noggin |
Denmark hasn't, they still have the Danish Krone. I agree with you otherwise. |
Apologies DK I missed your reply
I don’t know as much as you about Nordic history but a quick google suggests that Norway and Sweden were de facto separate countries with their own currency borders armed forces and monarchies. I don’t think that’s very similar to the current situation between England and the rest of the Union. As I say I think a better example would be the balkans and the Czechs as they suffered/benefitted from immediate shocking change similar to what would happen to the UK if Scotland voted to leave. |  |
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| Labour on 15:41 - Sep 22 with 769 views | itfcjoe |
| Labour on 15:34 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
Joe believes pretty much what he’s told I.e. that the infighting is necessary. But it really isn’t and wasn’t under Corbyn. Unfortunately people don’t see how much of this has been initiated and ramped up by the Labour right. They are pretty scummy and more interested in kicking the left than kicking out the Tories. I think that’s because they know deep down in their souls and possibly their brains that the Left is largely right on most issues compared to them.
True it’s tough to change the establishment from within (the clue is in the name) but I don’t necessarily see the answer within the current 2-party system and the Westminster bubble anyway. Not initially at least.
But I think, like UKIP but as a force for good, an external party or force can chip away at public support and change the narrative. Maybe the Greens but to be honest it could be anyone and everyone who keeps fighting for overdue change. BLM for example, renters unions, trade unions, LGBT, the Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish, the young etc.
People who basically don’t buy the platitudes because they can’t afford to. |
The Labour right, like the Labour left did previously, believe that the only way to win at the polls is to have a united party and need control at all levels.
Bearing in mind the Labour right have won an election (well 3 actually) in the last 50 years, and the Labour left has seen the worst electoral defeat in living memory then it is no great surprise that they believe the internal politics are important after seeing what has happened to the party since Ed Millibands disastrous decision to change how the leader was elected.
But you will blame the media, Starmer, Brexit and a myriad of other people saying......but the policies were popular.......when they weren't. They led to a historic, and catastrophic defeat which needs to be owned by the left of the party who thought Corbyn was electable despite the clear issues which were never going to wash with the British people. | |
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| Labour on 15:45 - Sep 22 with 754 views | hype313 |
| Labour on 15:34 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
Joe believes pretty much what he’s told I.e. that the infighting is necessary. But it really isn’t and wasn’t under Corbyn. Unfortunately people don’t see how much of this has been initiated and ramped up by the Labour right. They are pretty scummy and more interested in kicking the left than kicking out the Tories. I think that’s because they know deep down in their souls and possibly their brains that the Left is largely right on most issues compared to them.
True it’s tough to change the establishment from within (the clue is in the name) but I don’t necessarily see the answer within the current 2-party system and the Westminster bubble anyway. Not initially at least.
But I think, like UKIP but as a force for good, an external party or force can chip away at public support and change the narrative. Maybe the Greens but to be honest it could be anyone and everyone who keeps fighting for overdue change. BLM for example, renters unions, trade unions, LGBT, the Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish, the young etc.
People who basically don’t buy the platitudes because they can’t afford to. |
"They are pretty scummy and more interested in kicking the left than kicking out the Tories"
Given they lost two elections by considerable margin do you not think that by getting rid of the people that were responsible for those losses should be purged?
They won the argument, great, on that basis we should have kept with Lambert as he was constantly saying how great things were. |  |
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| Labour on 15:51 - Sep 22 with 747 views | itfcjoe |
| Labour on 15:40 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
Why? Because you were told it wasn’t credible by the media and even the Labour right briefing from within the party?
It must be a constant amazement to you how other countries manage this stuff. Or how we made the much bigger investment of paying for Covid just to stay still and not even make society better. |
There was a new multi billion pound promise every day - topped off by the WASPI pension promise where a few days before the election they basically said they'd gift every woman in the country born between 1950 and 1960 £30k at a cost of £60bn.
It seemed mental, and looked like a plan for if they were in power for a 50 year term, not a 5 year one - taking percentages of businesses, buying back all the utilities and train franchises in a single term.
It lacked credibility - nothing to do what I was told - anyone with half a brain could see it
I still voted for them, because I couldn't stick Johnson and his cronies - but it wasn't much to shout about at the time [Post edited 22 Sep 2021 15:53]
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| Labour on 15:52 - Sep 22 with 741 views | tractordownsouth |
| Labour on 08:23 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
Hmmm. If only there were real-life comparisons we could use rather than conjecture ...
Like Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, the Netherlands, the Republic of Ireland. Yes, in fact every single one of our neighbours in this corner of the world.
Why can’t any of these and their economy/trade be a model for an independent Scotland and its future? Give it your best shot.
Of course, you also know full well the reason why Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are the worst performing countries in Northwestern Europe but nobody seems able to mention that it’s because the UK is the most centralised and unbalanced country in the OECD. And based almost entirely on your brand of outdated, failed politics. |
You can't agree with the experts when they warn against the impacts of Brexit and then dismiss them when they state how Scottish independence would be equally disastrous. The SNP actually coined the phrase "project fear." |  |
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| Labour on 15:52 - Sep 22 with 738 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour on 15:41 - Sep 22 by itfcjoe |
The Labour right, like the Labour left did previously, believe that the only way to win at the polls is to have a united party and need control at all levels.
Bearing in mind the Labour right have won an election (well 3 actually) in the last 50 years, and the Labour left has seen the worst electoral defeat in living memory then it is no great surprise that they believe the internal politics are important after seeing what has happened to the party since Ed Millibands disastrous decision to change how the leader was elected.
But you will blame the media, Starmer, Brexit and a myriad of other people saying......but the policies were popular.......when they weren't. They led to a historic, and catastrophic defeat which needs to be owned by the left of the party who thought Corbyn was electable despite the clear issues which were never going to wash with the British people. |
The Labour Party leadership has never been as factional as it is now. At least, not since Kinnock versus Militant back in the early 80s.
What’s shocking is that the current left and organisations like Momentum are pretty mainstream and nothing at all like Militant. The Labour right are basically parasites looking for power and money. If they have an ideology it’s pro-establishment neoliberalism with a bit of illiberal interventionism thrown in.
I know you can’t understand that because it’s not in The Times or whatever but that doesn’t change the truth of it. | |
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| Labour on 15:57 - Sep 22 with 710 views | itfcjoe |
| Labour on 15:52 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
The Labour Party leadership has never been as factional as it is now. At least, not since Kinnock versus Militant back in the early 80s.
What’s shocking is that the current left and organisations like Momentum are pretty mainstream and nothing at all like Militant. The Labour right are basically parasites looking for power and money. If they have an ideology it’s pro-establishment neoliberalism with a bit of illiberal interventionism thrown in.
I know you can’t understand that because it’s not in The Times or whatever but that doesn’t change the truth of it. |
The truth of it.....! | |
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| Labour on 15:59 - Sep 22 with 701 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour on 15:52 - Sep 22 by tractordownsouth |
You can't agree with the experts when they warn against the impacts of Brexit and then dismiss them when they state how Scottish independence would be equally disastrous. The SNP actually coined the phrase "project fear." |
If you’re talking about short-term pain and costs then I don’t know anyone serious who would deny that’s true. But even in GB’s linked report they say that the challenges aren’t insurmountable. And it’s the upside and boosting GDP to put it anywhere even vaguely near Denmark that is the point of independence.
That massive upside doesn’t exist for Brexit, just slow long-term pain.
If you want to argue the economic future of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland then tell me why it’s really a benefit to continue being at the @rse end of Northwest European countries thanks to the Union. I’d love to hear how that works. | |
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| Labour on 16:01 - Sep 22 with 694 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour on 15:57 - Sep 22 by itfcjoe |
The truth of it.....! |
Yes. All I hear from you is regurgitated commentators’ opinions.
What did I say that was wrong about the factionalism under Starmer? | |
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| Labour on 16:04 - Sep 22 with 681 views | lowhouseblue |
| Labour on 15:52 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
The Labour Party leadership has never been as factional as it is now. At least, not since Kinnock versus Militant back in the early 80s.
What’s shocking is that the current left and organisations like Momentum are pretty mainstream and nothing at all like Militant. The Labour right are basically parasites looking for power and money. If they have an ideology it’s pro-establishment neoliberalism with a bit of illiberal interventionism thrown in.
I know you can’t understand that because it’s not in The Times or whatever but that doesn’t change the truth of it. |
"The Labour right are basically parasites looking for power and money."
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Labour on 16:05 - Sep 22 with 680 views | itfcjoe |
| Labour on 16:01 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
Yes. All I hear from you is regurgitated commentators’ opinions.
What did I say that was wrong about the factionalism under Starmer? |
You just totally ignore what was going on in the party between 2017 and 2019, there definitely wasn't factionalism going on there - even when people had left the party they still had their seats targetted in unwinnable constituencies just to prove a point.
But you are just so rude on here, so condescending with how you argue and belittle and I am not going to go back and forth on this because of that. We'll never agree, but your attitude about it is so pious and arrogant. | |
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| Labour on 16:08 - Sep 22 with 664 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour on 15:51 - Sep 22 by itfcjoe |
There was a new multi billion pound promise every day - topped off by the WASPI pension promise where a few days before the election they basically said they'd gift every woman in the country born between 1950 and 1960 £30k at a cost of £60bn.
It seemed mental, and looked like a plan for if they were in power for a 50 year term, not a 5 year one - taking percentages of businesses, buying back all the utilities and train franchises in a single term.
It lacked credibility - nothing to do what I was told - anyone with half a brain could see it
I still voted for them, because I couldn't stick Johnson and his cronies - but it wasn't much to shout about at the time [Post edited 22 Sep 2021 15:53]
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So that was all over 5 years? You clearly didn’t read it very closely then.
And a relative pittance to what we’ve spaffed on QE or Covid measures. You do know that the spending goes into the economy as opposed to offshore accounts? | |
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| Labour on 16:09 - Sep 22 with 656 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour on 16:04 - Sep 22 by lowhouseblue |
"The Labour right are basically parasites looking for power and money."
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Haha! A bit of licence there, but really yes. It’s just Change UK but bigger.
Oh and the staffers! My God. They’re even worse. | |
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| Labour on 16:23 - Sep 22 with 632 views | tractordownsouth |
| Labour on 10:36 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
If there’s no clear water between Labour and the Tories people vote Tory. If the Labour government didn’t do enough to address regional and structural issues in our economy, people especially in the Red Wall turn to the Tories (like Scotland has already turned to the SNP from Labour). If the current Labour leadership don’t have any vision or principles then people turn to the Tories because they think unwisely they might at least be better off.
This has been going on for years and you think it’s enough to say the Tories are the problem. Come off it. |
The reason for the continued success in Wales and the decline in Scotland hasn't been a lack of difference between Labour and the Tories, it's been a lack of difference between UK Labour and Welsh/Scottish Labour. Much of that was caused by Cardiff Bay diverging from Holyrood and Westminster in the early 2000s and had a bigger knock on effect with national identity. As a result, Welsh Labour kept hold of the soft nationalist vote whilst Scottish Labour lost it to the SNP. However, it's not a case of whoever is furthest left wins - in the devolved election just gone the Plaid manifesto was the furthest left but in all the red-green marginals in the valleys, Labour won comfortably. Morgan, Jones and Drakeford have all been able to keep that difference going with manifestos somewhere in between New Labour and Corbyn, which is where the party should be.
The red wall is slightly different. The Tories have managed to take away some of the Lib Dem/UKIP protest vote from 2005-15 but the problem was made worse in 2017 before culminating in the 2019 disaster. 6 red wall seats fell to the Tories in 2017 and there were loads of pro-Tory swings in areas such as Ashfield, Bolsover, Blyth and Don Valley, which had healthy Labour majorities as recently as 2015. The national vote share went up substantially, and some of that was in marginals, but it was also largely due to the party adding 10k votes to already safe seats in London and Liverpool. Brexit was largely to blame but Corbyn's perceived anti-patriotic views and associations with various overseas regimes were clearly a massive problem in these areas too. | |
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| Labour on 16:47 - Sep 22 with 603 views | noggin |
| Labour on 15:41 - Sep 22 by itfcjoe |
The Labour right, like the Labour left did previously, believe that the only way to win at the polls is to have a united party and need control at all levels.
Bearing in mind the Labour right have won an election (well 3 actually) in the last 50 years, and the Labour left has seen the worst electoral defeat in living memory then it is no great surprise that they believe the internal politics are important after seeing what has happened to the party since Ed Millibands disastrous decision to change how the leader was elected.
But you will blame the media, Starmer, Brexit and a myriad of other people saying......but the policies were popular.......when they weren't. They led to a historic, and catastrophic defeat which needs to be owned by the left of the party who thought Corbyn was electable despite the clear issues which were never going to wash with the British people. |
Says more about the British electorate than the actual policies. | |
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| Labour on 17:11 - Sep 22 with 564 views | giant_stow |
| Labour on 16:47 - Sep 22 by noggin |
Says more about the British electorate than the actual policies. |
Lets swap the electorate then, the bastads. Do you think the US would take them? Or maybe a correctional loan deal with the noble Nordic countries would be in order? We could take their enlightened souls and send them ourselves. |  |
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| Labour on 17:12 - Sep 22 with 562 views | Timefliesbyintheblue |
| Labour on 16:47 - Sep 22 by noggin |
Says more about the British electorate than the actual policies. |
i agree Noggin, it shows how canny they really were |  | | |
| Labour on 17:13 - Sep 22 with 560 views | positivity |
i've been a labour member since before "new labour", and corbyn's leadership has put us back decades.
i like him as a man, and i like the majority of his policies, but his leadership style was disastrous and has stained our reputation for so many people. to use an itfc comparison, it was like leaving hurst and doig in charge for 2 full seasons despite consecutive relegations
starmer's a lot better, but has no chance with the current media, i'm not sure anyone would.
he is, however, sweeping a lot of the previous regime's toxicity away and the next person should benefit from this | |
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| Labour on 17:15 - Sep 22 with 550 views | giant_stow |
| Labour on 16:05 - Sep 22 by itfcjoe |
You just totally ignore what was going on in the party between 2017 and 2019, there definitely wasn't factionalism going on there - even when people had left the party they still had their seats targetted in unwinnable constituencies just to prove a point.
But you are just so rude on here, so condescending with how you argue and belittle and I am not going to go back and forth on this because of that. We'll never agree, but your attitude about it is so pious and arrogant. |
Hey don't be rude to Darth - he's bursting with original never heard before thoughts and simply too good for this place really. All twtd-ers are lucky to be graced by his presence. | |
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