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Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 08:15 - Sep 26 by Lightworker
What a strange overly emotional response. It always shows you've lost the debate when you have to resort to name calling.
I have already made it quite clear that I have had the vaccine myself and that I think they are a good thing ( well for the older and vulnerable at least ), but that doesn't mean I can't ask questions where they seem to be valid.
If you, like many others want to adopt a religious like position on vaccines where they can never be questioned in any way, then that is your choice, but please don't ever claim to be 'following the science' because proper science is always asking questions.
I also have no plans to go to any protests, but appreciate your angle on that particular debate.
Just had enough of conspiracy theories and those who chose to peddle them. Applogies if I was a tad rude, but there you go.
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 08:46 - Sep 26 by bluelagos
Just had enough of conspiracy theories and those who chose to peddle them. Applogies if I was a tad rude, but there you go.
Enjoy your evening.
I'm sorry but please explain where I have peddled a conspiracy theory?
It's not yet evening where I live but I suspect I will be waiting until then and beyond for you to back up any of the erroneous claims you seem to have started making. I thought you were a fair and reasonable poster on here but perhaps I was wrong.
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Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 09:34 - Sep 26 with 964 views
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 09:04 - Sep 26 by Lightworker
I'm sorry but please explain where I have peddled a conspiracy theory?
It's not yet evening where I live but I suspect I will be waiting until then and beyond for you to back up any of the erroneous claims you seem to have started making. I thought you were a fair and reasonable poster on here but perhaps I was wrong.
"Are you aware that in August 2021 in the UK we had significantly more cases and deaths from covid than we did in 2020 when nobody was vaccinated? Don't believe me? Check out the official Government data, its all there. How do we explain this if the vaccines are preventing transmission?"
The clear inference from that post is that "vaccines do not prevent transmission". That is a conspiracy theory.
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 09:34 - Sep 26 by bluelagos
"Are you aware that in August 2021 in the UK we had significantly more cases and deaths from covid than we did in 2020 when nobody was vaccinated? Don't believe me? Check out the official Government data, its all there. How do we explain this if the vaccines are preventing transmission?"
The clear inference from that post is that "vaccines do not prevent transmission". That is a conspiracy theory.
Am out. Enjoy your night.
No, it's a question based on the Governments own data, and its a question that you are clearly unable to answer. That is fine but just acknowledge that we don't have all the answers but that it is a fair question.
Your doubling down on your position is making you look rather disingenuous now, probably best you do bail out at this point.
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Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 10:09 - Sep 26 with 931 views
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 09:47 - Sep 26 by Lightworker
No, it's a question based on the Governments own data, and its a question that you are clearly unable to answer. That is fine but just acknowledge that we don't have all the answers but that it is a fair question.
Your doubling down on your position is making you look rather disingenuous now, probably best you do bail out at this point.
To be fair mate, you're making a huge deal out of this and your opinion isn't generally accepted, therefore 'conspiracy theorist' is the term most people go to. You may have a point, you may not, who knows, but the thing that really annoys me about your argument is that you're prolonging the agony for all of us. I wasn't sure about getting a jab initially but did it because it's reasonably safe and COVID kills people, not necessarily me (under 40 and healthy) but other people. I wasn't sure about lockdown initially but i ended up getting into a massive row with my boss about it when he refused to allow people to work from home. That argument has damaged my career prospects and tipped me over the edge into clinical depression. When this lockdown came along, i did it again because i knew that it's not all about me, and as a senior member of staff, i had a responsibility to protect those in my organisation who would not be listened to. Lockdown is having a very detrimental effect on my mental health but it is the right thing to do right now. Point is, it's not all about the individual here. Real men make sacrifices. A letter in the SMH about the melbourne protests put it really well. It pointed out the four words inscribed on the battlefield memorial at kokoda: courage, endurance, mateship, sacrifice. The idiots spoiling for a fight with the police in melbourne should learn about the men that those four words describe and it may put their current problems into perspective.
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 10:09 - Sep 26 by BondiBlue
To be fair mate, you're making a huge deal out of this and your opinion isn't generally accepted, therefore 'conspiracy theorist' is the term most people go to. You may have a point, you may not, who knows, but the thing that really annoys me about your argument is that you're prolonging the agony for all of us. I wasn't sure about getting a jab initially but did it because it's reasonably safe and COVID kills people, not necessarily me (under 40 and healthy) but other people. I wasn't sure about lockdown initially but i ended up getting into a massive row with my boss about it when he refused to allow people to work from home. That argument has damaged my career prospects and tipped me over the edge into clinical depression. When this lockdown came along, i did it again because i knew that it's not all about me, and as a senior member of staff, i had a responsibility to protect those in my organisation who would not be listened to. Lockdown is having a very detrimental effect on my mental health but it is the right thing to do right now. Point is, it's not all about the individual here. Real men make sacrifices. A letter in the SMH about the melbourne protests put it really well. It pointed out the four words inscribed on the battlefield memorial at kokoda: courage, endurance, mateship, sacrifice. The idiots spoiling for a fight with the police in melbourne should learn about the men that those four words describe and it may put their current problems into perspective.
I'm not making a 'huge deal' out of anything to be honest, just adding my opinion ( and plenty of evidence ) to the debate. 'conspiracy theory' and 'idiot' etc. are generally the terms people use when they are losing the argument and are getting desperate. Perhaps you can succeed where Lagos and VWH failed and show me where in this thread I have produced a theory that there is a conspiracy going on?
"but the thing that really annoys me about your argument is that you're prolonging the agony for all of us'
This is really bemusing, please explain how me debating on an internet forum is prolonging the agony for you or anybody else?
I am sorry to hear that the lockdowns are having a detrimental impact on your mental health, I genuinely wish you well with that but some of the stuff going on in your country needs calling out because it is unacceptable, locking down and closing businesses for 1 case and Police brutality being prime examples. If you think that you can comply your way out of this by following draconian orders that have little bearing on reality and have no place in a civilised society then in my opinion you are going to be very disappointed.
I agree with you that people need to show courage and make sacrifices right now, we just disagree on what that entails.
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Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 11:09 - Sep 26 with 877 views
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 10:43 - Sep 26 by Lightworker
I'm not making a 'huge deal' out of anything to be honest, just adding my opinion ( and plenty of evidence ) to the debate. 'conspiracy theory' and 'idiot' etc. are generally the terms people use when they are losing the argument and are getting desperate. Perhaps you can succeed where Lagos and VWH failed and show me where in this thread I have produced a theory that there is a conspiracy going on?
"but the thing that really annoys me about your argument is that you're prolonging the agony for all of us'
This is really bemusing, please explain how me debating on an internet forum is prolonging the agony for you or anybody else?
I am sorry to hear that the lockdowns are having a detrimental impact on your mental health, I genuinely wish you well with that but some of the stuff going on in your country needs calling out because it is unacceptable, locking down and closing businesses for 1 case and Police brutality being prime examples. If you think that you can comply your way out of this by following draconian orders that have little bearing on reality and have no place in a civilised society then in my opinion you are going to be very disappointed.
I agree with you that people need to show courage and make sacrifices right now, we just disagree on what that entails.
Fair enough - that was poorly phrased and confusing. Your presenting the argument on TWTD is not prolonging the agony. The argument itself, and the actions of people who agree with argument, is. Protesting lockdown will probably end up in the virus spreading and more lockdown. Not getting vaccinated will mean there are more lockdowns. When i say agony, i'm referring to lockdowns.
And to be clear, the argument i'mreferring to is that one person's individual rights trumps the right of society as a whole. The individual is more important than the community.
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 09:47 - Sep 26 by Lightworker
No, it's a question based on the Governments own data, and its a question that you are clearly unable to answer. That is fine but just acknowledge that we don't have all the answers but that it is a fair question.
Your doubling down on your position is making you look rather disingenuous now, probably best you do bail out at this point.
Earlier you posed the question “How do we explain this if the vaccines are preventing transmission?"
That isn’t a scientific question.
Science isn’t just asking questions.
It is hard work. It includes gathering a lot of data, using a lot of known and current theories, analysing, modelling, testing, trying alternatives and using independent repetition and of course peer review.
Pointing out gaps in knowledge, is a typical conspiracy theorists tactic. I haven’t called you that. It is easy to construct a question about a gap in knowledge and then allow someone to draw an inference.
Using a couple of simple data points, and then basically stating “well how do you explain x then”, is not a scientific statement, it is a way conspiracy theorists try and get people on side.
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 10:43 - Sep 26 by Lightworker
I'm not making a 'huge deal' out of anything to be honest, just adding my opinion ( and plenty of evidence ) to the debate. 'conspiracy theory' and 'idiot' etc. are generally the terms people use when they are losing the argument and are getting desperate. Perhaps you can succeed where Lagos and VWH failed and show me where in this thread I have produced a theory that there is a conspiracy going on?
"but the thing that really annoys me about your argument is that you're prolonging the agony for all of us'
This is really bemusing, please explain how me debating on an internet forum is prolonging the agony for you or anybody else?
I am sorry to hear that the lockdowns are having a detrimental impact on your mental health, I genuinely wish you well with that but some of the stuff going on in your country needs calling out because it is unacceptable, locking down and closing businesses for 1 case and Police brutality being prime examples. If you think that you can comply your way out of this by following draconian orders that have little bearing on reality and have no place in a civilised society then in my opinion you are going to be very disappointed.
I agree with you that people need to show courage and make sacrifices right now, we just disagree on what that entails.
[Redacted]
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Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 11:45 - Sep 26 with 814 views
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 10:09 - Sep 26 by BondiBlue
To be fair mate, you're making a huge deal out of this and your opinion isn't generally accepted, therefore 'conspiracy theorist' is the term most people go to. You may have a point, you may not, who knows, but the thing that really annoys me about your argument is that you're prolonging the agony for all of us. I wasn't sure about getting a jab initially but did it because it's reasonably safe and COVID kills people, not necessarily me (under 40 and healthy) but other people. I wasn't sure about lockdown initially but i ended up getting into a massive row with my boss about it when he refused to allow people to work from home. That argument has damaged my career prospects and tipped me over the edge into clinical depression. When this lockdown came along, i did it again because i knew that it's not all about me, and as a senior member of staff, i had a responsibility to protect those in my organisation who would not be listened to. Lockdown is having a very detrimental effect on my mental health but it is the right thing to do right now. Point is, it's not all about the individual here. Real men make sacrifices. A letter in the SMH about the melbourne protests put it really well. It pointed out the four words inscribed on the battlefield memorial at kokoda: courage, endurance, mateship, sacrifice. The idiots spoiling for a fight with the police in melbourne should learn about the men that those four words describe and it may put their current problems into perspective.
Hang in there Bondi. This pandemic has been horrendous and affected people in all sorts of ways. People can argue all day about approaches to control it, but those measures (in some form) were needed otherwise the death toll would be even more horrendous than it is now. I’m sure stricter measures down under are crippling people. On the flip side there are probably families of some of the 135k dead in the UK who would give anything for there to have been stricter measures. There don’t seem to be any easy paths.
We’re a bit worried about how it’s affected our eldest and especially some of his friends. The spark seems to have gone out of some of the kids. I suppose transitioning into teenage years often comes with changes in character, but then on top of that they seem to have lost interest in friends, and in some cases pretty much in life itself. It’s going to take a long time to rebuild after all this.
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 11:30 - Sep 26 by eireblue
Earlier you posed the question “How do we explain this if the vaccines are preventing transmission?"
That isn’t a scientific question.
Science isn’t just asking questions.
It is hard work. It includes gathering a lot of data, using a lot of known and current theories, analysing, modelling, testing, trying alternatives and using independent repetition and of course peer review.
Pointing out gaps in knowledge, is a typical conspiracy theorists tactic. I haven’t called you that. It is easy to construct a question about a gap in knowledge and then allow someone to draw an inference.
Using a couple of simple data points, and then basically stating “well how do you explain x then”, is not a scientific statement, it is a way conspiracy theorists try and get people on side.
I can see why Bluelagos responded has he did.
Bluelagos responded the way he did because he couldn't answer the question and got annoyed.
I never stated it was a scientific question, or that science was only about asking questions, it was just a question raised in a debate. I don't know the definitive answer but it is certainly a question worth asking in relation to vaccine effectiveness based on those numbers.
Why are you also taking about conspiracy theories? is everybody who dares to ask a question about the covid vaccines making claims of a conspiracy? Shouuld scientists never test a hypotheses where vaccination is the subject matter? What an odd way to think.
I asked a question about the numbers and Lagos responded with a claim that it was entirely due to the 2020 lockdown, he didn't provide any further evidence to back this up. It's interesting you didn't challenge that response for being 'unscientific' but yet you decide to challenge mine. Smacks of more than little confirmation bias.
[Post edited 26 Sep 2021 13:01]
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Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 13:19 - Sep 26 with 749 views
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 11:09 - Sep 26 by BondiBlue
Fair enough - that was poorly phrased and confusing. Your presenting the argument on TWTD is not prolonging the agony. The argument itself, and the actions of people who agree with argument, is. Protesting lockdown will probably end up in the virus spreading and more lockdown. Not getting vaccinated will mean there are more lockdowns. When i say agony, i'm referring to lockdowns.
And to be clear, the argument i'mreferring to is that one person's individual rights trumps the right of society as a whole. The individual is more important than the community.
Thanks, appreciate your humility there.
The problem with lockdowns is that no Government seems to have carried out the analysis to determine if there will be a net benefit to society. It is clear they can have some effect on Covid numbers but what about everything else? You yourself are a living example of how they effect mental health, we are now starting to see the negative results of lockdown policy in other areas of society.
Regarding individual rights versus the greater good, who assumes to be able to decide what is for 'the greater good'? It is certainly not the Government's place to decide.
This is an interesting ( if long ) piece from a libertarian perspective. I think this it is well worth considering this point of view when assessing the more authoritarian approach that western Governments seem to now be taking.
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 13:19 - Sep 26 by Lightworker
Thanks, appreciate your humility there.
The problem with lockdowns is that no Government seems to have carried out the analysis to determine if there will be a net benefit to society. It is clear they can have some effect on Covid numbers but what about everything else? You yourself are a living example of how they effect mental health, we are now starting to see the negative results of lockdown policy in other areas of society.
Regarding individual rights versus the greater good, who assumes to be able to decide what is for 'the greater good'? It is certainly not the Government's place to decide.
This is an interesting ( if long ) piece from a libertarian perspective. I think this it is well worth considering this point of view when assessing the more authoritarian approach that western Governments seem to now be taking.
If it's not up to the government to decide the way forward, who is it up to? We choose the people we want to represent us every four years and we empower them to make the big decisions.
Just because we now have the ability to do our own research doesn't mean that, as individuals, we have any greater ability to solve problems than we did pre-internet. We need to solve the issue of COVID as a group, and we have to choose someone to lead the group.
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 09:47 - Sep 26 by Lightworker
No, it's a question based on the Governments own data, and its a question that you are clearly unable to answer. That is fine but just acknowledge that we don't have all the answers but that it is a fair question.
Your doubling down on your position is making you look rather disingenuous now, probably best you do bail out at this point.
If i understand the question, the answer is Delta and it being far much catchy. That's also why the aussies are getting high numbers despite lockdown.
Maybe I misunderstood though, as I've not read properly.
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 14:26 - Sep 26 by BondiBlue
If it's not up to the government to decide the way forward, who is it up to? We choose the people we want to represent us every four years and we empower them to make the big decisions.
Just because we now have the ability to do our own research doesn't mean that, as individuals, we have any greater ability to solve problems than we did pre-internet. We need to solve the issue of COVID as a group, and we have to choose someone to lead the group.
You are missing the point my friend, perhaps I didn't explain it very well. Governments are elected to make decisions on behalf of the people but in my opinion they are not elected to initiate force against the people in the name of 'the greater good'. It is not for them to decide what 'the greater good' is. Read the libertarian piece and this will make sense, whether you agree or not is of course your choice.
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Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 15:03 - Sep 26 with 702 views
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 12:58 - Sep 26 by Lightworker
Bluelagos responded the way he did because he couldn't answer the question and got annoyed.
I never stated it was a scientific question, or that science was only about asking questions, it was just a question raised in a debate. I don't know the definitive answer but it is certainly a question worth asking in relation to vaccine effectiveness based on those numbers.
Why are you also taking about conspiracy theories? is everybody who dares to ask a question about the covid vaccines making claims of a conspiracy? Shouuld scientists never test a hypotheses where vaccination is the subject matter? What an odd way to think.
I asked a question about the numbers and Lagos responded with a claim that it was entirely due to the 2020 lockdown, he didn't provide any further evidence to back this up. It's interesting you didn't challenge that response for being 'unscientific' but yet you decide to challenge mine. Smacks of more than little confirmation bias.
[Post edited 26 Sep 2021 13:01]
You seem to have taken my response personally.
If your opinion is “I don’t know a definitive answer”. Then a simple suggestion is. say here are two data points I don’t understand.
BL didn’t use the term entirely, BTW.
But he did add some additional suggestions of data points that could be considered. Maybe you could look into it and do some maths?
Of course you can ask questions, I was suggesting that if you take a simple data point, and frame a simple question, I can see why someone could think one of two things, either you are an idiot, or trying to infer a conspiracy. Since framing simple questions of the form that you did, is sort of the form used by idiots and conspiracy theorists. Of course it could be a particular choice in language.
I am not challenging or supporting any specific theories, I don’t have sufficient data to form an opinion. So my opinion wouldn’t be very interesting.
So my posting was more about communications in language, and how certain involved language can lead to miscommunication of opinion.
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Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 15:12 - Sep 26 with 692 views
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 14:56 - Sep 26 by Lightworker
You are missing the point my friend, perhaps I didn't explain it very well. Governments are elected to make decisions on behalf of the people but in my opinion they are not elected to initiate force against the people in the name of 'the greater good'. It is not for them to decide what 'the greater good' is. Read the libertarian piece and this will make sense, whether you agree or not is of course your choice.
The issue I have with Libertarianism is Nozick's assertion that you have the right to put a knife anywhere so long as it is not in my chest (or any other part of my body. If I have to walk down the street and every other person is waving knives around then I am going to feel intimidated. It isn't authoritarian to ask everyone to keep their knives sheathed, it promotes a society that allows peaceable behaviour to proliferate and the chance of inadvertent stabbings to be minimised. I have read 'Anarchy, State and Utopia' - it was interesting but not compellingly persuasive.
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 14:56 - Sep 26 by Lightworker
You are missing the point my friend, perhaps I didn't explain it very well. Governments are elected to make decisions on behalf of the people but in my opinion they are not elected to initiate force against the people in the name of 'the greater good'. It is not for them to decide what 'the greater good' is. Read the libertarian piece and this will make sense, whether you agree or not is of course your choice.
But what if using force actually helps protect a larger number of other people? Isn't this a bit like the problem of the person in control of the railway points and can see a train coming? He or she has the choice of allowing the train to continue and squash the railway workers on one track or divert the train onto a second track, where it would squash just one. My point is someone has to make that call here too. It's jabs, lockdowns or lots of dead people.
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 15:24 - Sep 26 by BondiBlue
But what if using force actually helps protect a larger number of other people? Isn't this a bit like the problem of the person in control of the railway points and can see a train coming? He or she has the choice of allowing the train to continue and squash the railway workers on one track or divert the train onto a second track, where it would squash just one. My point is someone has to make that call here too. It's jabs, lockdowns or lots of dead people.
Actually the way that Phillipa Foot set up the trolleybus problem is that the default position is 'do nothing;, i.e. no one has to make a call, you just carry on sitting in your seat whilst the driver remains slumped over the wheel and the carriage slews through the workers on the track. It is only when you decide to get up and turn the wheel (thus putting pressure on the points and diverting the trolleybus along the other track) that the single person on the other line gets run down. And the responsibility for that rests with you and you alone.
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 15:12 - Sep 26 by WeWereZombies
The issue I have with Libertarianism is Nozick's assertion that you have the right to put a knife anywhere so long as it is not in my chest (or any other part of my body. If I have to walk down the street and every other person is waving knives around then I am going to feel intimidated. It isn't authoritarian to ask everyone to keep their knives sheathed, it promotes a society that allows peaceable behaviour to proliferate and the chance of inadvertent stabbings to be minimised. I have read 'Anarchy, State and Utopia' - it was interesting but not compellingly persuasive.
[Redacted]
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Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 16:05 - Sep 26 with 644 views
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 15:03 - Sep 26 by eireblue
You seem to have taken my response personally.
If your opinion is “I don’t know a definitive answer”. Then a simple suggestion is. say here are two data points I don’t understand.
BL didn’t use the term entirely, BTW.
But he did add some additional suggestions of data points that could be considered. Maybe you could look into it and do some maths?
Of course you can ask questions, I was suggesting that if you take a simple data point, and frame a simple question, I can see why someone could think one of two things, either you are an idiot, or trying to infer a conspiracy. Since framing simple questions of the form that you did, is sort of the form used by idiots and conspiracy theorists. Of course it could be a particular choice in language.
I am not challenging or supporting any specific theories, I don’t have sufficient data to form an opinion. So my opinion wouldn’t be very interesting.
So my posting was more about communications in language, and how certain involved language can lead to miscommunication of opinion.
You are making it a touch personal by inferring that I am a conspiracy theorist or an idiot, the attempt at dancing around it is fairly transparent and not nearly as clever as you probably think it is.
Nobody would know if your opinions are interesting or not because you don't appear to ever present any, you are excellent at sitting on the fence whilst talking in riddles though.
I'm sure your opinions and statistical analysis would be of some interest to a poster or two though if only you would give it a try, maybe you should sometime?.
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Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 16:13 - Sep 26 with 623 views
It is more than sad when apparently legitimate concerns about the overreach of authority get derailed by extremists 'weaponising' the disease they have started to suffer from, and it is not just the police getting attacked:
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 16:13 - Sep 26 by WeWereZombies
It is more than sad when apparently legitimate concerns about the overreach of authority get derailed by extremists 'weaponising' the disease they have started to suffer from, and it is not just the police getting attacked:
Agreed it is sad. I am equally as appalled at that behaviour as I am at the behaviour of certain Police officers. Neither side is coming out of this particularly well it seems.
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 16:18 - Sep 26 by Lightworker
Agreed it is sad. I am equally as appalled at that behaviour as I am at the behaviour of certain Police officers. Neither side is coming out of this particularly well it seems.
[Redacted]
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Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 16:59 - Sep 26 with 585 views
Its really quite simple. I posted links with clear evidence to some very unjust behaviour being carried out by Police officers. You claimed one was fake and/or edited were later proven to be incorrect.
At that point I had not seen any poor behaviour from protesters that deserved equal attention, only some obviously poor journalism trying to declare every protester as a far right extremist, anti-vaxxer, conspiracy loon. You posted such links and were called out for it by Urban blue, and rightly so.
Now there IS some behaviour from certain protesters that deserves calling out so I have called that out also.
No agenda, no trolling, that is just in your imagination but you can think that if you want, I really couldn't care less.
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