| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night 14:23 - Oct 5 with 2008 views | Keno |
very interesting
Blair looked like very slimey lying tory when trying not to answer the question about the deal with Brown.
Kier Starmer is more 'Brown' than Blair and I dont think Labour have anyone with the 'charisma' of Blair at the moment |  |
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| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 15:59 - Oct 5 with 1625 views | J2BLUE |
Labour should start by finding some with some sort of personality. Jess Phillips would be good.
I wanted Starmer to win the leadership contest but he's been awful. Really has managed to limbo under the bar. |  |
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| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 16:05 - Oct 5 with 1619 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 15:59 - Oct 5 by J2BLUE |
Labour should start by finding some with some sort of personality. Jess Phillips would be good.
I wanted Starmer to win the leadership contest but he's been awful. Really has managed to limbo under the bar. |
Please no to Jess Phillips. Anyone who cosies up to Rees Mogg to get her face on telly shouldn't even be in the Labour Party. She is much more interested in being a celebrity than being a politician.
Andy Burnham rejoining the PLP would be handy. There is a distinct lack of talent in Parliament, for both parties. [Post edited 5 Oct 2021 16:05]
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| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 16:11 - Oct 5 with 1599 views | Keno |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 16:05 - Oct 5 by TRUE_BLUE123 |
Please no to Jess Phillips. Anyone who cosies up to Rees Mogg to get her face on telly shouldn't even be in the Labour Party. She is much more interested in being a celebrity than being a politician.
Andy Burnham rejoining the PLP would be handy. There is a distinct lack of talent in Parliament, for both parties. [Post edited 5 Oct 2021 16:05]
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Andy Burnham couldn’t be as underwhelming as starmer, and I’m not sure about Phillips
Lammy is a thought | |
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| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 16:14 - Oct 5 with 1591 views | tractordownsouth |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 16:11 - Oct 5 by Keno |
Andy Burnham couldn’t be as underwhelming as starmer, and I’m not sure about Phillips
Lammy is a thought |
I like David Lammy and he's good in the justice brief. but I don't think he's leadership material, he's a little too gaffe prone
Andy Burnham would be a decent leader, although I've gone off him with the way he's not so subtly trying to position himself for the role. |  |
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| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 16:17 - Oct 5 with 1584 views | tractordownsouth |
I've watched 2 of the 5 episodes so far and I'm slowly making my way through the rest of them. I've found Brown much easier to warm to whenever he's been on TV but it's hard to deny how electorally successful and intelligent Blair was - his analysis of the public mood in the 1990s was bang on. | |
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| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 17:09 - Oct 5 with 1543 views | TJS |
Labour took a massive wrong turn for me when they chose Ed Miliband over David.
I still think he would have made a great prime minister. |  | | |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 17:19 - Oct 5 with 1528 views | tractordownsouth |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 17:09 - Oct 5 by TJS |
Labour took a massive wrong turn for me when they chose Ed Miliband over David.
I still think he would have made a great prime minister. |
I'm not sure it was so much the person but more that Ed spent his leadership telling the country that the previous Labour government was rubbish and then was surprised that they didn't vote for another one in 2015. | |
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| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 17:33 - Oct 5 with 1495 views | TJS |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 17:19 - Oct 5 by tractordownsouth |
I'm not sure it was so much the person but more that Ed spent his leadership telling the country that the previous Labour government was rubbish and then was surprised that they didn't vote for another one in 2015. |
I think David would have been way more capable of doing business in Washington and Brussels than Ed or anyone else for that matter. | | | |
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| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 17:55 - Oct 5 with 1469 views | positivity |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 17:09 - Oct 5 by TJS |
Labour took a massive wrong turn for me when they chose Ed Miliband over David.
I still think he would have made a great prime minister. |
if it's "charisma", that's the key factor, david would be much worse than ed.
if anything, they chose the wrong ed... |  |
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| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 18:13 - Oct 5 with 1447 views | Darth_Koont |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 17:19 - Oct 5 by tractordownsouth |
I'm not sure it was so much the person but more that Ed spent his leadership telling the country that the previous Labour government was rubbish and then was surprised that they didn't vote for another one in 2015. |
The previous Labour government had shed millions of voters from 1997 and was losing Scotland even before the Indy Ref. Ed wasn’t wrong.
He was on a hiding to nothing that election. But a move back to the centre-right would have gone even worse. |  |
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| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 19:59 - Oct 5 with 1390 views | EdwardStone |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 17:55 - Oct 5 by positivity |
if it's "charisma", that's the key factor, david would be much worse than ed.
if anything, they chose the wrong ed... |
Balls |  | | |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 20:21 - Oct 5 with 1345 views | Ryorry |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 17:33 - Oct 5 by TJS |
I think David would have been way more capable of doing business in Washington and Brussels than Ed or anyone else for that matter. |
Didn't he say he didn't want the gig?
As did Andy Burnham iirc, so if he's angling for it now, I'd be pleased - he's the only hope Labour have of uniting both "sides" of Labour imho, amongst both members and voters old & new; and thus presents the best chance of GTTO. Has shown he's capable via his current job. I'd have liked Lisa Nandy, but for her Brexit stance. |  |
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| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 21:05 - Oct 5 with 1279 views | EdwardStone |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 19:59 - Oct 5 by EdwardStone |
Balls |
I've always wanted to post that
Homage to a certain Village Green Poster | | | |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 21:08 - Oct 5 with 1270 views | Ryorry |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 21:05 - Oct 5 by EdwardStone |
I've always wanted to post that
Homage to a certain Village Green Poster |
Your one comment using it was about 100 times wittier than the dozens of occasions (cumulative) when he used it tho. | |
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| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 00:19 - Oct 6 with 1180 views | tractordownsouth |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 18:13 - Oct 5 by Darth_Koont |
The previous Labour government had shed millions of voters from 1997 and was losing Scotland even before the Indy Ref. Ed wasn’t wrong.
He was on a hiding to nothing that election. But a move back to the centre-right would have gone even worse. |
I know the SNP were in government at Holyrood by then but In 2010 the Labour vote in Scotland actually increased, despite a bad election UK wide, so I don't think that's fair to pin on Brown. Miliband got outflanked by everybody (SNP on spending, Tories on deficit cutting and UKIP on immigration) because he tried to be all things to all men. Had he offered positive vision for the future alongside praise for the Labour Party's past record, he could have done well. Instead, all he did was reinforce the false narrative of Labour crashing the economy and never fought back on it. It's near impossible for a party to win by trashing its own record, the last 3 elections are proof of that. | |
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| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 00:49 - Oct 6 with 1169 views | bournemouthblue |
There hasn't been a politician on either side as capable as Blair for a long time
If it wasn't for the Iraq war, he'd probably still be popular in fairness |  |
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| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 04:25 - Oct 6 with 1123 views | galacticoblue |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 00:49 - Oct 6 by bournemouthblue |
There hasn't been a politician on either side as capable as Blair for a long time
If it wasn't for the Iraq war, he'd probably still be popular in fairness |
The Iraq war, that small hiccup!
Tbf voted for him once as ‘things could only get better’ but he got overconfident and slippery. | | | |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 07:52 - Oct 6 with 1025 views | Herbivore |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 00:19 - Oct 6 by tractordownsouth |
I know the SNP were in government at Holyrood by then but In 2010 the Labour vote in Scotland actually increased, despite a bad election UK wide, so I don't think that's fair to pin on Brown. Miliband got outflanked by everybody (SNP on spending, Tories on deficit cutting and UKIP on immigration) because he tried to be all things to all men. Had he offered positive vision for the future alongside praise for the Labour Party's past record, he could have done well. Instead, all he did was reinforce the false narrative of Labour crashing the economy and never fought back on it. It's near impossible for a party to win by trashing its own record, the last 3 elections are proof of that. |
Not sure on the last point, one of the biggest tricks Johnson has pulled is to pitch his Tory party as a party of change despite them being in government for a decade. He's done a great job of saying the country is broken and he's the man to fix it whilst somehow not taking any responsibility for the ten years his party spent breaking it. Of course it helps when you have a pathetic, compliant media helping you sell the narrative, but if you get the narrative right it seems you can trash your party's record so long as you also tell people what they want to hear and pitch yourself as an alternative despite being more of the same old sh!t. |  |
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| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 07:57 - Oct 6 with 1022 views | Darth_Koont |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 00:19 - Oct 6 by tractordownsouth |
I know the SNP were in government at Holyrood by then but In 2010 the Labour vote in Scotland actually increased, despite a bad election UK wide, so I don't think that's fair to pin on Brown. Miliband got outflanked by everybody (SNP on spending, Tories on deficit cutting and UKIP on immigration) because he tried to be all things to all men. Had he offered positive vision for the future alongside praise for the Labour Party's past record, he could have done well. Instead, all he did was reinforce the false narrative of Labour crashing the economy and never fought back on it. It's near impossible for a party to win by trashing its own record, the last 3 elections are proof of that. |
A little too much revisionism there. You seem to think in terms of Labour only when the context was a Labour vote that was still propped up by the deepening unpopularity of the Tories. To an extent that also propped up the LibDem vote too.
But the appetite for a genuine alternative was there with the SNP and all it needed was the No referendum campaign to release that. And perversely to boost the Conservatives as the Unionist opposition because Labour was essentially down to its hardcore support by that stage.
Brown himself admitted that more should have been done on Labour’s watch to address regional inequalities. So instead of pointing the finger at Miliband and saying he was trashing the previous Labour record, perhaps getting real and promising to do better is still the answer in Scotland? And something I doubt that Labour will manage because they’re now trying to replicate the strategy against the Tories and position themselves as “better than the SNP”. That’s not looking inspiring or serious enough south of the border let alone north of the border where it’s not even credible. | |
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| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 08:05 - Oct 6 with 1009 views | Darth_Koont |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 07:52 - Oct 6 by Herbivore |
Not sure on the last point, one of the biggest tricks Johnson has pulled is to pitch his Tory party as a party of change despite them being in government for a decade. He's done a great job of saying the country is broken and he's the man to fix it whilst somehow not taking any responsibility for the ten years his party spent breaking it. Of course it helps when you have a pathetic, compliant media helping you sell the narrative, but if you get the narrative right it seems you can trash your party's record so long as you also tell people what they want to hear and pitch yourself as an alternative despite being more of the same old sh!t. |
Indeed. There’s that too.
The Labour right have snookered themselves by wanting to push the line that a return to the Labour governments is what the country really needs. Yes, it would probably be better than what the current Tory government is like in reality – but it comes across as less hopeful, less forward-thinking and less of a challenge to the status quo than BoJo as a sitting PM even if it’s just bluster. | |
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| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 08:14 - Oct 6 with 990 views | tractordownsouth |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 07:57 - Oct 6 by Darth_Koont |
A little too much revisionism there. You seem to think in terms of Labour only when the context was a Labour vote that was still propped up by the deepening unpopularity of the Tories. To an extent that also propped up the LibDem vote too.
But the appetite for a genuine alternative was there with the SNP and all it needed was the No referendum campaign to release that. And perversely to boost the Conservatives as the Unionist opposition because Labour was essentially down to its hardcore support by that stage.
Brown himself admitted that more should have been done on Labour’s watch to address regional inequalities. So instead of pointing the finger at Miliband and saying he was trashing the previous Labour record, perhaps getting real and promising to do better is still the answer in Scotland? And something I doubt that Labour will manage because they’re now trying to replicate the strategy against the Tories and position themselves as “better than the SNP”. That’s not looking inspiring or serious enough south of the border let alone north of the border where it’s not even credible. |
A better future prospectus and defending the party’s past aren’t mutually exclusive, they should both be a given. | |
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| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 08:26 - Oct 6 with 979 views | Darth_Koont |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 08:14 - Oct 6 by tractordownsouth |
A better future prospectus and defending the party’s past aren’t mutually exclusive, they should both be a given. |
That nostalgia for the Blair years and a modest platform of a little tinkering plays well with Centrist Dads and the ageing Dunts and O’Briens of the commentariat.
Feels woefully inadequate for anyone who, unlike the above, is on the wrong side of regional, socioeconomic, age, ethnic and home-owning gaps. Or really anyone who’s looking at the real world and the challenges we’re either failing to address or ignoring as they loom on the horizon.
It’s weak in both political style and material substance. | |
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| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 08:26 - Oct 6 with 977 views | tractordownsouth |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 07:52 - Oct 6 by Herbivore |
Not sure on the last point, one of the biggest tricks Johnson has pulled is to pitch his Tory party as a party of change despite them being in government for a decade. He's done a great job of saying the country is broken and he's the man to fix it whilst somehow not taking any responsibility for the ten years his party spent breaking it. Of course it helps when you have a pathetic, compliant media helping you sell the narrative, but if you get the narrative right it seems you can trash your party's record so long as you also tell people what they want to hear and pitch yourself as an alternative despite being more of the same old sh!t. |
I agree, Johnson’s distanced himself from the Tories but that was through not mentioning it rather than saying “we got it wrong” like Miliband constantly did. I can barely remember a mention of the coalition or Theresa May’s government in the 2019 election. Instead, Johnson tried to create a positive vision of Brexit and more investment (which of course is bollox) and focused more of his campaign on attacking Labour. For example, in the Hartlepool by-election he painted the successive Labour MPs in the town as the establishment rather than Tory government. There’s also that clip of Priti Patel blaming Labour councils when asked about poverty figures. They distanced themselves from their previous positions but didn’t explicitly trash them. | |
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| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 08:29 - Oct 6 with 958 views | Herbivore |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 08:26 - Oct 6 by tractordownsouth |
I agree, Johnson’s distanced himself from the Tories but that was through not mentioning it rather than saying “we got it wrong” like Miliband constantly did. I can barely remember a mention of the coalition or Theresa May’s government in the 2019 election. Instead, Johnson tried to create a positive vision of Brexit and more investment (which of course is bollox) and focused more of his campaign on attacking Labour. For example, in the Hartlepool by-election he painted the successive Labour MPs in the town as the establishment rather than Tory government. There’s also that clip of Priti Patel blaming Labour councils when asked about poverty figures. They distanced themselves from their previous positions but didn’t explicitly trash them. |
I'd argue it was there implicitly though, lots of "for too long in this country we've......" whether that was underfunding police, the NHS, social care, whether it was falling living standards, huge regional inequalities. Granted they didn't explicitly say that it was their fault but they trashed their own record in government probably more than Labour did in the lead up to the GE in 2019 and somehow much of the public bought it. | |
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| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 08:34 - Oct 6 with 943 views | tractordownsouth |
| Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown prog on BBC2 last night on 08:26 - Oct 6 by Darth_Koont |
That nostalgia for the Blair years and a modest platform of a little tinkering plays well with Centrist Dads and the ageing Dunts and O’Briens of the commentariat.
Feels woefully inadequate for anyone who, unlike the above, is on the wrong side of regional, socioeconomic, age, ethnic and home-owning gaps. Or really anyone who’s looking at the real world and the challenges we’re either failing to address or ignoring as they loom on the horizon.
It’s weak in both political style and material substance. |
I don’t think that a 1997-esque platform is enough for today, it needs to be more ambitious as the issues of climate and housing in particular are worse today. it’s just it seems bizarre that party leaders didn’t talk up the achievements of the good stuff that happened.
Oh and on the topic of the SNP above, who do you think will be the leader when Nicola’s gone? I’m still a strong unionist but I was listening to Angus Robertson on the Matt Forde political party podcast yesterday and I was quite impressed with how he spoke. I always found him to be a much better communicator than Ian Blackford. I think the SNP support is quite tribal because it’s supported by the independence vote but there’s a possibility they might have a wobble whenever Sturgeon leaves as despite her views she is an effective political operator and I don’t see anyone on her level. The way the party is structured seems very based around her and Blackford (not dissimilar to New Labour.) | |
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