| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland 15:46 - Oct 12 with 3695 views | noggin |
or am I misunderstanding his speech? |  |
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:10 - Oct 12 with 824 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:05 - Oct 12 by giant_stow |
I realise that but France often behaves like its the EU and its wording in those threats referred to 'EU action' I think. That it was later slapped down is great, but it carries huge weight nonetheless. |
France always acts in its own interests should, similar to the EU, not be any surprise. They are confined by remaining within the terms of the EU but they won't roll over simply because the UK wants them to. Ultimately, if the French interests fit with the overall EU interests, the EU are obliged to represent the French interest. It is a benefit of belonging to the EU. |  |
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:11 - Oct 12 with 823 views | Herbivore |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:05 - Oct 12 by giant_stow |
I realise that but France often behaves like its the EU and its wording in those threats referred to 'EU action' I think. That it was later slapped down is great, but it carries huge weight nonetheless. |
So was it France or the EU making threats? Because as you acknowledge, they aren't the same thing. It's this conflation of anything that is said or done in Europe as being EU action that contributed to the Brexit vote, imo. The EU is made up of numerous sovereign nations who often say and do things independently of the EU. Just like we used to. It's ironic that you now think the EU should still be bailing us out of our mess even after we've left. |  |
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:12 - Oct 12 with 819 views | giant_stow |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:02 - Oct 12 by Swansea_Blue |
Ah, a crisis. Trouble is (in the stories own words) this is the “great”, “oven ready” deal that Johnson claimed credit for, negotiating it in “record time” that would “get Brexit done” “despite Parliament’s best efforts to block his progress”.
They won an election off the back of that and promised “no more renegotiations”.
It’s not supposed to be a crisis. This is exactly what we wanted, voted for and celebrated. They can’t admit it’s a crisis or otherwise their whole act comes crashing down. Can’t blame the EU for us not understanding or admitting to what the the deal meant. |
Yes indeed, it's a problem of our (or the Tories') making.
I guess I'm asking for the impossible from the EU - just a little disappointed that they're living up to some of the accusations brexiters made prior to the vote. Ultimately, its not helping is it?
Going back to the Pinewood's flexibility point, it is available for the chosen few - see the the Poland law crisis fuss, compared to the treatment of a very similar ruling by the German high court thingy. A little enlightened looking forward instead of back might help everyone. |  |
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:14 - Oct 12 with 809 views | noggin |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:12 - Oct 12 by giant_stow |
Yes indeed, it's a problem of our (or the Tories') making.
I guess I'm asking for the impossible from the EU - just a little disappointed that they're living up to some of the accusations brexiters made prior to the vote. Ultimately, its not helping is it?
Going back to the Pinewood's flexibility point, it is available for the chosen few - see the the Poland law crisis fuss, compared to the treatment of a very similar ruling by the German high court thingy. A little enlightened looking forward instead of back might help everyone. |
"A little enlightened looking forward instead of back might help everyone."
5 years too late for that. | |
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:14 - Oct 12 with 806 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 17:56 - Oct 12 by giant_stow |
Fair enough on the vaccines / EU triggering of article 16. It was a mistake which was quickly corrected, but it does show them in a bad light I think, especially if one woman was able to do this without reference to national govts.
I spose to be precise, I'm chatting the threats from the French on blocking the power, which have subsequently been watered down, but were definately made with regards to the fishing dispute.
Re Nato - I have no idea, but would guess the French would leave before us, especially after the ARKUS thing and our apparent need to continually kiss up the Americans. |
France withdrew from NATO back in 1966 and only rejoined 12 years ago. |  |
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:18 - Oct 12 with 787 views | giant_stow |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:11 - Oct 12 by Herbivore |
So was it France or the EU making threats? Because as you acknowledge, they aren't the same thing. It's this conflation of anything that is said or done in Europe as being EU action that contributed to the Brexit vote, imo. The EU is made up of numerous sovereign nations who often say and do things independently of the EU. Just like we used to. It's ironic that you now think the EU should still be bailing us out of our mess even after we've left. |
France tried to bounce the others into seeing through it's threats. While you're obviously right that the EU is a collective, it would be silly to pretend that some countries aren't more powerful in that arrangement that others. I have no idea on the technicalities of whether their grievance has merit, but wouldn't assume that it certainly does.
I don't think 'the EU should be bailing us out'. I think its time for the grownups to return and hash out a way forward instead of endless bickering - bickering that will ultimately harm us all. I'm asking for pragmatism. | |
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:25 - Oct 12 with 777 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:12 - Oct 12 by giant_stow |
Yes indeed, it's a problem of our (or the Tories') making.
I guess I'm asking for the impossible from the EU - just a little disappointed that they're living up to some of the accusations brexiters made prior to the vote. Ultimately, its not helping is it?
Going back to the Pinewood's flexibility point, it is available for the chosen few - see the the Poland law crisis fuss, compared to the treatment of a very similar ruling by the German high court thingy. A little enlightened looking forward instead of back might help everyone. |
Northern Cyprus is another example. When Cyprus was joining EU there were plans to reunite the Country. While Turkish Cypriots were in favour Greek Cypriots were not so it failed. The solution was to pretend Northern Cyprus was in the EU. The EU supports the north, the financial aid given is to prepare for joining but in reality there no chance Cyprus would agree to it happening. | |
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:28 - Oct 12 with 763 views | Herbivore |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:18 - Oct 12 by giant_stow |
France tried to bounce the others into seeing through it's threats. While you're obviously right that the EU is a collective, it would be silly to pretend that some countries aren't more powerful in that arrangement that others. I have no idea on the technicalities of whether their grievance has merit, but wouldn't assume that it certainly does.
I don't think 'the EU should be bailing us out'. I think its time for the grownups to return and hash out a way forward instead of endless bickering - bickering that will ultimately harm us all. I'm asking for pragmatism. |
And why do you assume it's pragmatic to renegotiate a protocol that both sides negotiated and agreed less than 2 years ago because it is proving politically inconvenient for the Tories? | |
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:30 - Oct 12 with 758 views | giant_stow |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:28 - Oct 12 by Herbivore |
And why do you assume it's pragmatic to renegotiate a protocol that both sides negotiated and agreed less than 2 years ago because it is proving politically inconvenient for the Tories? |
Not just the tories in fairness - I believe the unionists aren't overly happy either? [Post edited 12 Oct 2021 18:31]
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:33 - Oct 12 with 751 views | noggin |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:28 - Oct 12 by Herbivore |
And why do you assume it's pragmatic to renegotiate a protocol that both sides negotiated and agreed less than 2 years ago because it is proving politically inconvenient for the Tories? |
Quite ironic when the government have said they will block The SNP calls for a new independence referendum in Scotland. | |
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:35 - Oct 12 with 742 views | Herbivore |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:30 - Oct 12 by giant_stow |
Not just the tories in fairness - I believe the unionists aren't overly happy either? [Post edited 12 Oct 2021 18:31]
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Then perhaps the unionists should have thought through the consequences of supporting a hard Brexit. | |
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:37 - Oct 12 with 734 views | giant_stow |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:25 - Oct 12 by Pinewoodblue |
Northern Cyprus is another example. When Cyprus was joining EU there were plans to reunite the Country. While Turkish Cypriots were in favour Greek Cypriots were not so it failed. The solution was to pretend Northern Cyprus was in the EU. The EU supports the north, the financial aid given is to prepare for joining but in reality there no chance Cyprus would agree to it happening. |
I'm sure there are many other examples too, probably in the financial arena. Isn't Italy basically funding it's huge spending deficit on funny money from ECB, despite rules which prohibit that? I may have got this wrong, as I'm no finance wizz, but think I'm probably right! | |
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:39 - Oct 12 with 729 views | giant_stow |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:35 - Oct 12 by Herbivore |
Then perhaps the unionists should have thought through the consequences of supporting a hard Brexit. |
almost certainly, but I'm not sure principled intransigence on holding unhappy agreement partners to something they got talked into is going to help resolve anything. | |
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:39 - Oct 12 with 731 views | BlueBadger |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 17:51 - Oct 12 by Herbivore |
What specifically is he to blame for, IYHO? He didn't campaign for Brexit using a pack of lies to create an emotional pull to vote leave, he didn't scaremonger about millions of Turks flooding the country or various other xenophobic tropes, he didn't negotiate or vote for the Withdrawal Agreement we ended up with, nor did he set a load of incomptible red lines that could only ever result in us being worse off and creating huge issues in Ireland and NI. Being a bit luke warm in support of remain rather pales into insignificance next to all that I'd say. |
I think you can hold him up for basically running away and hiding throughout the referendum campaign and his confusing and unclear strategy for the three years following but he's no way as culpable as the major players like Farage, Johnson or Zuckerberg(oh man, I WENT there!) but given that the major abstentions from voting amongst the electorate were the younger voters who his cultists claimed he had the most draw for, the fact he decided to run away he certainly deserves criticism.
He get's his share, but it's the pitiful token vegan effort at a pub buffet compared to the three course wedding dinner that was the major players. [Post edited 12 Oct 2021 18:42]
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:59 - Oct 12 with 698 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:39 - Oct 12 by BlueBadger |
I think you can hold him up for basically running away and hiding throughout the referendum campaign and his confusing and unclear strategy for the three years following but he's no way as culpable as the major players like Farage, Johnson or Zuckerberg(oh man, I WENT there!) but given that the major abstentions from voting amongst the electorate were the younger voters who his cultists claimed he had the most draw for, the fact he decided to run away he certainly deserves criticism.
He get's his share, but it's the pitiful token vegan effort at a pub buffet compared to the three course wedding dinner that was the major players. [Post edited 12 Oct 2021 18:42]
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To be fair you have to consider what happened when Labour supported Tories in the Scottish Independence Referendum . All but destroyed Scottish Labour Party and made it much more difficult for Labour to ever have a workable majority in Westminster again. | |
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 19:09 - Oct 12 with 673 views | Herbivore |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:39 - Oct 12 by giant_stow |
almost certainly, but I'm not sure principled intransigence on holding unhappy agreement partners to something they got talked into is going to help resolve anything. |
Got talked into? We negotiated it, signed it, and boasted about how great a deal it was, ffs. You're generally not a bad sort but it shows how deeply ingrained English exceptionalism is when I look at the tone of your posts in this topic. [Post edited 12 Oct 2021 19:11]
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 19:14 - Oct 12 with 666 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:12 - Oct 12 by giant_stow |
Yes indeed, it's a problem of our (or the Tories') making.
I guess I'm asking for the impossible from the EU - just a little disappointed that they're living up to some of the accusations brexiters made prior to the vote. Ultimately, its not helping is it?
Going back to the Pinewood's flexibility point, it is available for the chosen few - see the the Poland law crisis fuss, compared to the treatment of a very similar ruling by the German high court thingy. A little enlightened looking forward instead of back might help everyone. |
Although I believe the EU are working on some measures they hope will help, and that N. Irish politician further up the thread says they have been talking and discussing options. I guess whether people think the EU is deliberately being obstructive or looking for a solution depends who you listen to. You’ll only get EU bashing from Frost and large parts of our media. |  |
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 19:18 - Oct 12 with 647 views | lowhouseblue |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 18:39 - Oct 12 by BlueBadger |
I think you can hold him up for basically running away and hiding throughout the referendum campaign and his confusing and unclear strategy for the three years following but he's no way as culpable as the major players like Farage, Johnson or Zuckerberg(oh man, I WENT there!) but given that the major abstentions from voting amongst the electorate were the younger voters who his cultists claimed he had the most draw for, the fact he decided to run away he certainly deserves criticism.
He get's his share, but it's the pitiful token vegan effort at a pub buffet compared to the three course wedding dinner that was the major players. [Post edited 12 Oct 2021 18:42]
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all the people who undermined may's deal get a good share of the credit for the cluster f**k that got us where we are today. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 19:20 - Oct 12 with 632 views | giant_stow |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 19:09 - Oct 12 by Herbivore |
Got talked into? We negotiated it, signed it, and boasted about how great a deal it was, ffs. You're generally not a bad sort but it shows how deeply ingrained English exceptionalism is when I look at the tone of your posts in this topic. [Post edited 12 Oct 2021 19:11]
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I meant that the unionists got talked into accepting the del by the tories.
And thanks, but you've now got 3 examples in the thread of when the eu has shown flexibility on major issues, so I'm not sure there's anything exceptionally English about asking for more pragmatism of this sort in resolving beexit. | |
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 19:22 - Oct 12 with 625 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 19:18 - Oct 12 by lowhouseblue |
all the people who undermined may's deal get a good share of the credit for the cluster f**k that got us where we are today. |
So mostly the ERG lot then. You’d expect the opposition to oppose and May had the numbers with the DUP to get that through (I can’t remember what the DUP did). | |
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 19:25 - Oct 12 with 617 views | lowhouseblue |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 19:22 - Oct 12 by Swansea_Blue |
So mostly the ERG lot then. You’d expect the opposition to oppose and May had the numbers with the DUP to get that through (I can’t remember what the DUP did). |
no the opposition didn't have a mandate to undermine the deal and by implication the referendum result. it was in the their hands to get may's deal through. they thought they could play a game and reverse the referendum and that is one of the greatest misjudgements in post war uk politics. [Post edited 12 Oct 2021 19:25]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 19:28 - Oct 12 with 601 views | Kievthegreat |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 19:18 - Oct 12 by lowhouseblue |
all the people who undermined may's deal get a good share of the credit for the cluster f**k that got us where we are today. |
The issue with this it that the biggest thing undermining May's deal (and this catastrophe of a deal) is reality. I'm not sure how critics of those deals, pointing out the glaring issues with regards Northern Ireland, trade, the economy, etc... get a good share of credit. It's such a stupid take I'm surprised people can say it with a straight face. |  | | |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 19:31 - Oct 12 with 585 views | lowhouseblue |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 19:28 - Oct 12 by Kievthegreat |
The issue with this it that the biggest thing undermining May's deal (and this catastrophe of a deal) is reality. I'm not sure how critics of those deals, pointing out the glaring issues with regards Northern Ireland, trade, the economy, etc... get a good share of credit. It's such a stupid take I'm surprised people can say it with a straight face. |
because a much harder brexit and putting boris in power with a stonking great majority was a much better outcome. pretending that the referendum result wasn't final was the really stupid take - as events have proven beyond question. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 19:40 - Oct 12 with 557 views | Kievthegreat |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 19:31 - Oct 12 by lowhouseblue |
because a much harder brexit and putting boris in power with a stonking great majority was a much better outcome. pretending that the referendum result wasn't final was the really stupid take - as events have proven beyond question. |
That sort of thinking is tantamount to 'Remainers saying Brexit is crap is the reason Brexit is so crap'.
"Hard brexit" was set out as the course of action by Theresa May when she had a majority in Parliament before the 2017 election. The red lines were drawn such that hard brexit was inevitable. It's historical revisionism to blame hard brexit on the results of the 2019 election. | | | |
| Lord Frost blaming EU for post brexit problems in Northern Ireland on 19:42 - Oct 12 with 547 views | WicklowBlue |
A view from the other side of the water, that Frost est al keep changing the goal posts in negotiations. Granted both sides shouldn't be having a go at each other on twitter, but very little sympathy over in the Emerald Isle for constantly changing the goal posts on a signed agreement.
http://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2021/1010/1252786-brexit/
Of course both sides will present themselves in the best light but feeling is patience is running out on the EU side. Triggering article 16 will mean a world of pain for the Irish and the UK. [Post edited 12 Oct 2021 19:45]
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