| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 12:58 - Nov 23 with 1312 views | Lightworker |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 10:58 - Nov 23 by Cotty |
Being vaccinated gives you a much better chance of avoiding hospital, an excellent chance of avoiding ITU, and an even better chance of avoiding death. Everything else is noise.
If you'd been chucked out of a plane, would you refuse to open the parachute because of the risk of whiplash, or because you might twist your ankle on landing?
Getting vaccinated is a no-brainer, and not doing so has a quantitive impact on society through increased ITU admissions. |
"Being vaccinated gives you a much better chance of avoiding hospital, an excellent chance of avoiding ITU, and an even better chance of avoiding death."
Yes I know, that's why I got vaccinated. I think it is also important to look at this with some perspective though. Before the vaccines even came out the vast majority of the population had an excellent chance of avoiding those things anyway. Some people talk as though Covid is a deadly disease for everybody and that is simply not the reality. [Post edited 23 Nov 2021 13:13]
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| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:03 - Nov 23 with 1295 views | wkj |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 12:58 - Nov 23 by Lightworker |
"Being vaccinated gives you a much better chance of avoiding hospital, an excellent chance of avoiding ITU, and an even better chance of avoiding death."
Yes I know, that's why I got vaccinated. I think it is also important to look at this with some perspective though. Before the vaccines even came out the vast majority of the population had an excellent chance of avoiding those things anyway. Some people talk as though Covid is a deadly disease for everybody and that is simply not the reality. [Post edited 23 Nov 2021 13:13]
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When it has killed 5.16M worldwide in 256m cases over about 2 years - It would be CiLly not to exercise as much caution as possible. |  |
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| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:09 - Nov 23 with 1266 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 12:58 - Nov 23 by Lightworker |
"Being vaccinated gives you a much better chance of avoiding hospital, an excellent chance of avoiding ITU, and an even better chance of avoiding death."
Yes I know, that's why I got vaccinated. I think it is also important to look at this with some perspective though. Before the vaccines even came out the vast majority of the population had an excellent chance of avoiding those things anyway. Some people talk as though Covid is a deadly disease for everybody and that is simply not the reality. [Post edited 23 Nov 2021 13:13]
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"Before the vaccines even came out the vast majority of the population had an excellent chance of avoiding those things anyway"
Unbelievable naivety.....how many people get the far less transmissable coughs, colds and flu every year? |  |
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| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:10 - Nov 23 with 1253 views | Cotty |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 12:58 - Nov 23 by Lightworker |
"Being vaccinated gives you a much better chance of avoiding hospital, an excellent chance of avoiding ITU, and an even better chance of avoiding death."
Yes I know, that's why I got vaccinated. I think it is also important to look at this with some perspective though. Before the vaccines even came out the vast majority of the population had an excellent chance of avoiding those things anyway. Some people talk as though Covid is a deadly disease for everybody and that is simply not the reality. [Post edited 23 Nov 2021 13:13]
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Haha this is your weakest attempt yet. Have a nice day. |  | | |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:11 - Nov 23 with 1249 views | Lightworker |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 11:17 - Nov 23 by StokieBlue |
I don't have too long today so I will reply quickly.
"Ok, first off I never mentioned the words "gold standard" so you have literally made that bit up. The quote you have used in your own post however is as follows..."
You ignored the data posted to you by other posters in favour of your own source. If that's not implication that in your opinion it's a superior or "golden" source then I am not sure what is. You don't have to say something specifically for it to be implied.
"So you are agreeing with me that the vaccines are less effective now against Delta. Excellent glad we cleared that up."
You've missed out the entire context of my post here. If you're going to do that then there is really no point in debating with you.
"You accuse me of ignoring the parts I don't like ( which I haven't ) and yet you continue to ignore the raw data which shows that in the real world there are definite concerns about vaccine effectiveness in preventing spread."
I've not ignored the raw data, I've outlined why we might be seeing that difference (although the data others have posted which you have ignored it's debatable that your figures stand up). You have failed to address the points made in that regard of course.
With regards to natural immunity, there are many studies which disagree with what you posted. Why are you bringing up posts from last week?
"I am not trying to re-write the narrative, I am simply saying that in terms of a tool for preventing transmission I don't feel they have quite lived up to the billing."
You've ignored the entire section of my post which covers this so that you can push the same point again. The vaccines were not disappointing at preventing transmission of the original covid or Alpha and are doing OK against Delta or very good with a booster.
It's like teaching your child to speak Spanish but then being upset they can't speak Italian because they are both Latin based languages yet they have evolved differently over the years. The child might be able to understand some Italian but it won't be perfect. The vaccines are doing an incredible job at reducing transmission of a heavily evolved covid variant.
I'm not going to get into a debate with you about "authoritarianism" as that will be totally pointless.
"If People choose not to take the vaccine then they take on the risk that they might end up in ICU, that is their choice. Why should we be angry at such people putting their own lives at risk? People compromise their own health in multiple ways every day that can and do result in using up NHS resources, if there was a press campaign of raising anger against the obese or type 2 diabetics for taking up hospital bed space would that be justifed? Of course not, we know that fat shaming doesn't work and it is far better to try and educate people and help them to make better choices. Why should it be any different around vaccination?"
This is a false equivalence. Both of the examples you've cited have a genetic component and thus not always in the control of the patient, that is not the case with covid.
SB |
I brought up the post from last week because I posted a number of studies which you said you would look at and subsequently never did, or if you did you didn't post accordingly.
I also posted a very large study last week which showed an overall positive association between the countries that had the highest vaccination rates also having the highest case rates. You glossed over this because again it didn't fit in with your narrative.
You expect posters to answer every point posed by yourself while cherry picking the bits you respond to. Then at the same time accusing others of doing exactly as you do yourself. A clever tactic but one I can see right through.
I will agree with you on one thing though, it's pretty pointless in debating under these circumstances. I'll leave it there. | | | |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:15 - Nov 23 with 1208 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:11 - Nov 23 by Lightworker |
I brought up the post from last week because I posted a number of studies which you said you would look at and subsequently never did, or if you did you didn't post accordingly.
I also posted a very large study last week which showed an overall positive association between the countries that had the highest vaccination rates also having the highest case rates. You glossed over this because again it didn't fit in with your narrative.
You expect posters to answer every point posed by yourself while cherry picking the bits you respond to. Then at the same time accusing others of doing exactly as you do yourself. A clever tactic but one I can see right through.
I will agree with you on one thing though, it's pretty pointless in debating under these circumstances. I'll leave it there. |
Good, then maybe you'll stop undermining the vaccine programme in that case....for someone who's very keen to say they've been jabbed, you're doing a good job of putting doubts in the minds of those who are wavering....this is just like the Cook debate, just a lot more serious... | |
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| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:18 - Nov 23 with 1198 views | wkj |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:15 - Nov 23 by Ewan_Oozami |
Good, then maybe you'll stop undermining the vaccine programme in that case....for someone who's very keen to say they've been jabbed, you're doing a good job of putting doubts in the minds of those who are wavering....this is just like the Cook debate, just a lot more serious... |
Is a debate, really a debate when one in effect ends up arguing against their own actions?
Would arguing with one's self be a mass debate? | |
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| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:19 - Nov 23 with 1194 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:18 - Nov 23 by wkj |
Is a debate, really a debate when one in effect ends up arguing against their own actions?
Would arguing with one's self be a mass debate? |
It'd be a one on an I'd guess... | |
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| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:22 - Nov 23 with 1188 views | Lightworker |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:10 - Nov 23 by Cotty |
Haha this is your weakest attempt yet. Have a nice day. |
Great response, brilliant evidence and well argued.
If you are unable to grasp reality perhaps you need to hear this little reminder from Chris Witty, or are you going to say this is a weak attempt also?
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| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:23 - Nov 23 with 1185 views | StokieBlue |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:11 - Nov 23 by Lightworker |
I brought up the post from last week because I posted a number of studies which you said you would look at and subsequently never did, or if you did you didn't post accordingly.
I also posted a very large study last week which showed an overall positive association between the countries that had the highest vaccination rates also having the highest case rates. You glossed over this because again it didn't fit in with your narrative.
You expect posters to answer every point posed by yourself while cherry picking the bits you respond to. Then at the same time accusing others of doing exactly as you do yourself. A clever tactic but one I can see right through.
I will agree with you on one thing though, it's pretty pointless in debating under these circumstances. I'll leave it there. |
I don't post as much as I used to so it's perfectly possible I haven't answered every point in all of your posts (or even seen some of them). I only took the time to reply to your posts in this thread because I believe you're been incredibly disingenuous in your points.
"You expect posters to answer every point posed by yourself while cherry picking the bits you respond to. Then at the same time accusing others of doing exactly as you do yourself. A clever tactic but one I can see right through."
I've not expected or asked you to answer all my points. I've simply taken issue with the responses to the ones you "cherry picked" to answer.
I'd look closer to home before I start throwing these types of accusations around at others.
SB |  | | |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:36 - Nov 23 with 1147 views | Lightworker |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:15 - Nov 23 by Ewan_Oozami |
Good, then maybe you'll stop undermining the vaccine programme in that case....for someone who's very keen to say they've been jabbed, you're doing a good job of putting doubts in the minds of those who are wavering....this is just like the Cook debate, just a lot more serious... |
Undermining the vaccine programme? On a league One football forum? Melodramatic much.
I have never once tried to encourage people to not get vaccinated. I am merely pointing out the limitations of them in the context of vaccine mandates and discriminatory restrictions against those who choose not to have one.
My position is all about medical freedom of choice. I happen to think that is a fundamental right that is worth holding onto and the Covid vaccines are not even close to being effective enough against infection to give that up for. I make no apology for this, if you don't like it, tough. | | | |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:58 - Nov 23 with 1092 views | Mookamoo |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:22 - Nov 23 by Lightworker |
Great response, brilliant evidence and well argued.
If you are unable to grasp reality perhaps you need to hear this little reminder from Chris Witty, or are you going to say this is a weak attempt also?
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That clip from Whitty is dated May 2020. I'm not sure using that, knowing all what has gone in the meantime, is helping your argument. |  | | |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 14:00 - Nov 23 with 1089 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:36 - Nov 23 by Lightworker |
Undermining the vaccine programme? On a league One football forum? Melodramatic much.
I have never once tried to encourage people to not get vaccinated. I am merely pointing out the limitations of them in the context of vaccine mandates and discriminatory restrictions against those who choose not to have one.
My position is all about medical freedom of choice. I happen to think that is a fundamental right that is worth holding onto and the Covid vaccines are not even close to being effective enough against infection to give that up for. I make no apology for this, if you don't like it, tough. |
"My position is all about medical freedom of choice. I happen to think that is a fundamental right that is worth holding onto and the Covid vaccines are not even close to being effective enough against infection to give that up for"
If there were no medicines, there would be no freedom of choice.....I think you forget how lucky we are as a society to be in a position where we can even be able to make that choice.... | |
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| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 14:07 - Nov 23 with 1078 views | BlueBadger |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 11:03 - Nov 23 by Lightworker |
Former ONS statistician suggests this story is an outlier and not based on the actual numbers.
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It's my experience at my ITU.
And in several hospitals around the region(we have to declare critical care beds daily to the Critical Care Network, so that people requiring ongoing critical care can still be placed SOMEWHERE if capacity is exceeded in one place).
And at least three of my colleagues in different places around the country.
And the consultant writing the article. |  |
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| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 14:19 - Nov 23 with 1036 views | Cotty |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:36 - Nov 23 by Lightworker |
Undermining the vaccine programme? On a league One football forum? Melodramatic much.
I have never once tried to encourage people to not get vaccinated. I am merely pointing out the limitations of them in the context of vaccine mandates and discriminatory restrictions against those who choose not to have one.
My position is all about medical freedom of choice. I happen to think that is a fundamental right that is worth holding onto and the Covid vaccines are not even close to being effective enough against infection to give that up for. I make no apology for this, if you don't like it, tough. |
People in this country have that freedom, so what exactly is your point? We shouldn't encourage them to have the vaccination because it's their right not to have one? Or are you making a much deeper point that is beyond my understanding? Maybe you could outline the point you're trying to make with a little more clarity, because if this is the main point of contention, it is somewhat fatuous. | | | |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 14:25 - Nov 23 with 1009 views | Keno |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:36 - Nov 23 by Lightworker |
Undermining the vaccine programme? On a league One football forum? Melodramatic much.
I have never once tried to encourage people to not get vaccinated. I am merely pointing out the limitations of them in the context of vaccine mandates and discriminatory restrictions against those who choose not to have one.
My position is all about medical freedom of choice. I happen to think that is a fundamental right that is worth holding onto and the Covid vaccines are not even close to being effective enough against infection to give that up for. I make no apology for this, if you don't like it, tough. |
Just out of interest how well have you recovered Polio and Small Pox? |  |
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| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 14:25 - Nov 23 with 1008 views | Pinewoodblue |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:36 - Nov 23 by Lightworker |
Undermining the vaccine programme? On a league One football forum? Melodramatic much.
I have never once tried to encourage people to not get vaccinated. I am merely pointing out the limitations of them in the context of vaccine mandates and discriminatory restrictions against those who choose not to have one.
My position is all about medical freedom of choice. I happen to think that is a fundamental right that is worth holding onto and the Covid vaccines are not even close to being effective enough against infection to give that up for. I make no apology for this, if you don't like it, tough. |
My guess is you only post your nonsense on here because you are not welcome on mainstream social media. Having said that I wouldn’t want to see Phil having to police the board anymore than we, as posters, already force him to.
Any chance you could change your user name as currently you are anything but light work. |  |
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| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 14:33 - Nov 23 with 993 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 14:25 - Nov 23 by Pinewoodblue |
My guess is you only post your nonsense on here because you are not welcome on mainstream social media. Having said that I wouldn’t want to see Phil having to police the board anymore than we, as posters, already force him to.
Any chance you could change your user name as currently you are anything but light work. |
I don't normally judge a poster by their avatar but sometimes..... | |
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| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 15:07 - Nov 23 with 895 views | Lightworker |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:58 - Nov 23 by Mookamoo |
That clip from Whitty is dated May 2020. I'm not sure using that, knowing all what has gone in the meantime, is helping your argument. |
Its perfectly relevant as it was before we had vaccines. It covers the point I was making perfectly. | | | |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 15:10 - Nov 23 with 876 views | Keno |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 15:07 - Nov 23 by Lightworker |
Its perfectly relevant as it was before we had vaccines. It covers the point I was making perfectly. |
So how is your recovery from polio and small pox going? | |
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| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 15:11 - Nov 23 with 874 views | Lightworker |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 14:25 - Nov 23 by Pinewoodblue |
My guess is you only post your nonsense on here because you are not welcome on mainstream social media. Having said that I wouldn’t want to see Phil having to police the board anymore than we, as posters, already force him to.
Any chance you could change your user name as currently you are anything but light work. |
My guess is you only joined in at this point because you saw others pile in and you like the safety of the herd, especially when it means you don't have to actually engage your own intellect ( or lack of ) to counter any of the points you think you disagree with. [Post edited 23 Nov 2021 16:18]
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| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 15:15 - Nov 23 with 859 views | Ryorry |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 13:36 - Nov 23 by Lightworker |
Undermining the vaccine programme? On a league One football forum? Melodramatic much.
I have never once tried to encourage people to not get vaccinated. I am merely pointing out the limitations of them in the context of vaccine mandates and discriminatory restrictions against those who choose not to have one.
My position is all about medical freedom of choice. I happen to think that is a fundamental right that is worth holding onto and the Covid vaccines are not even close to being effective enough against infection to give that up for. I make no apology for this, if you don't like it, tough. |
I had 1,000 views within an hour of my first post on this thread on p1, despite it being at the bottom of the page (posts there usually get far fewer views); and it's now had nearly 2.5K (even if some of those are the same people re-reading), so I think you under-estimate the global reach this forum has.
I had time for you in your argument last week against the authoritarian Austrian mandate to make vaccs compulsory, but whether you're aware of it or not, your accumulated posts are now coming across as anti-vaxx, & that's unacceptable as far as I'm concerned, esp on a site which young people read. |  |
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| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 15:21 - Nov 23 with 834 views | Lightworker |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 14:19 - Nov 23 by Cotty |
People in this country have that freedom, so what exactly is your point? We shouldn't encourage them to have the vaccination because it's their right not to have one? Or are you making a much deeper point that is beyond my understanding? Maybe you could outline the point you're trying to make with a little more clarity, because if this is the main point of contention, it is somewhat fatuous. |
We had that freedom in 2019 but as things stand right now i'm not so sure. I don't remember adult vaccine mandates back then, or vaccine passports or seeing serious suggestions that we should lock up those who choose not to take a vaccine, or sack them from their jobs.
You may also note that I joined this thread in response to a poster stating that he would no longer let his children see a family member who wasn't vaccinated because it was too much risk. That saddens me and I happen to think it is a position coming from ignorance and fear and is not based on any solid evidence. I felt that was worth challenging.
I am being made out to be someone taking an extreme position for holding these views. Bizarre times we are living in.
The vultures are circling now so i'm out. [Post edited 23 Nov 2021 16:15]
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| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 16:46 - Nov 23 with 729 views | giant_stow |
| “ICU is full of the unvaccinated” on 15:21 - Nov 23 by Lightworker |
We had that freedom in 2019 but as things stand right now i'm not so sure. I don't remember adult vaccine mandates back then, or vaccine passports or seeing serious suggestions that we should lock up those who choose not to take a vaccine, or sack them from their jobs.
You may also note that I joined this thread in response to a poster stating that he would no longer let his children see a family member who wasn't vaccinated because it was too much risk. That saddens me and I happen to think it is a position coming from ignorance and fear and is not based on any solid evidence. I felt that was worth challenging.
I am being made out to be someone taking an extreme position for holding these views. Bizarre times we are living in.
The vultures are circling now so i'm out. [Post edited 23 Nov 2021 16:15]
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Not getting into the rights and wrongs of the thread as I haven't read it - just your reply. but it is indeed striking how attitudes have changed. The way I remember it when China locked down, no one in the west thought that was possible here, or that people wouldn't obey. Next thing you know, I'm in what turned out to be my last overseas trip to Amsterdam reading about Italy locking down the northern region and then quickly realizing that they'd have to lockdown the whole country. And bang, the dam was burst.
No point here really - just amazing how fast things have moved and continue to move. [Post edited 23 Nov 2021 16:47]
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