| The thing that gets me... 23:53 - Nov 22 with 3921 views | OriginalMarkyP |
The football is better than last year.
But the tactical inflexibility is just the same if not more solidly entrenched.
The results are by and large the same. The postion slightly worse.
And everyone who says it's a rebuild, fair enough. BUT if we don't go up this season, as some have already pointed out a lot of the players in that rebuild will go.
And then where are we?
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| The thing that gets me... on 10:29 - Nov 23 with 555 views | DavoIPB |
| The thing that gets me... on 09:20 - Nov 23 by Pinewoodblue |
Which would you prefer to watch every other week Ipswich or Sunderland?
Think about it the choice is between being entertained and leaving the ground seven times out of eight with three points in the bank. |
Much prefer to watch Ipswich. Sunderland are awful. Reminds me of us the last couple of seasons. Even when we won I was bored. |  | | |
| The thing that gets me... on 10:32 - Nov 23 with 524 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The thing that gets me... on 09:26 - Nov 23 by Herbivore |
You're assuming they'll be prepared to sink that money in though. This season we've used sales primarily to keep us within the rules. No reason to think that wouldn't be the plan this summer as well. |
No reason to think it would either. If the team has gelled together nicely and is playing well, I'd imagine they'd rather add to it than dismantle it. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The thing that gets me... on 10:33 - Nov 23 with 535 views | itfcjoe |
| The thing that gets me... on 10:29 - Nov 23 by DavoIPB |
Much prefer to watch Ipswich. Sunderland are awful. Reminds me of us the last couple of seasons. Even when we won I was bored. |
Sunderland home record
P8 W7 L1 F16 A4 Pts 21
Ipswich home record
P9 W3 D5 L1 F19 A14 Pts 14
So we've played one more game and scored 3 more goals, but conceded 10 more and dropped a further 10 points.
I'd love to be that bored |  |
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| The thing that gets me... on 10:36 - Nov 23 with 517 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The thing that gets me... on 09:59 - Nov 23 by Herbivore |
I have a lot of doubt. There's players in this squad who didn't sign to spend multiple seasons in this league and who will be confident they can attract interest from the level above. I think we'd see a minimum of 10 go and 10 come in over the summer, including the loanees, possibly more than that. That would put us back in time to gel territory. |
A minimum of 10 go and 10 come in over the summer would, as you say, be a complete overhaul and would require gelling again. Which is why it won't happen. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The thing that gets me... on 10:41 - Nov 23 with 524 views | ghostofescobar |
| The thing that gets me... on 09:23 - Nov 23 by Swansea_Blue |
One of the things people didn't give Lambert's regime credit for was the shape and discipline off the ball. It made us hard to break down and should have been a solid base. We were pretty abject on the ball though. We seem to have a bit of an opposite problem under Cook, although I don't think that's news to anyone. |
I'd disagree with that. I thought the opposite: our shape was dreadful at times, other than the back four, which could be well marshaled by an experienced old hand, Luke Chambers. We may have conceded fewer purely by way of never committing any players forward under PL (so we rarely ever got a shot on target, let alone score), so we often had plenty of players behind the ball, which is different to being well organised. We were always very vulnerable to quick counter attacks and often looked shaky down the flanks. |  |
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| The thing that gets me... on 10:44 - Nov 23 with 523 views | Herbivore |
| The thing that gets me... on 10:18 - Nov 23 by ArnieM |
I don’t get all this tactical inflexibility crap. If you look at other managers approaches, they invariable stick to one formation, (incidentally mostly the same one that PC adopts). So why the hang up on what Paul Cook does? It’s not about formations, it’s about players doing their jobs within that formation. I’d suggest neither Edwards nor Celina are doing theirs very well atm! |
The genius of Paul Cook is his ability to make fans think that everything is the fault of the players, even when those players are his own signings. |  |
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| The thing that gets me... on 11:39 - Nov 23 with 484 views | OriginalMarkyP |
| The thing that gets me... on 07:55 - Nov 23 by Oldboy |
Who will go?
I imagine that the vast majority would have signed at least for 2 years. Really don't understand this "they will leave if we don't go up" idea. |
Morsy for one. He didn't really want to come here, the move was more or less forced upon him by boro. He's 30. He's an international. He should be playing champ football and wants to play champ football and doesn't at his age have another year to waste in League 1.
Chaplin, I think would go. He clearly isn't happy with being dropped when playing well. Again he's a champ player and has stated he doesn't want to be in L1. I think he'd go.
Walton, Bonne, Celina obvs as loans. Coulson and Barry too but they've not really made an impact anyway.
I think Fraser would go, or push for a move. I get the impression he feels he's played out of position (when he actually plays) and this is stalling his progression. He'd like to get into a Scotland squad and that won't happen when he's a bit part player here.
That's quite a few of our better players. | |
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| The thing that gets me... on 11:40 - Nov 23 with 484 views | 44_not_out |
| The thing that gets me... on 10:33 - Nov 23 by itfcjoe |
Sunderland home record
P8 W7 L1 F16 A4 Pts 21
Ipswich home record
P9 W3 D5 L1 F19 A14 Pts 14
So we've played one more game and scored 3 more goals, but conceded 10 more and dropped a further 10 points.
I'd love to be that bored |
This!!!!
As soon as you read a thread starting ‘the football’s better’
To me, the best football is winning football with a winning mentality. But hey, maybe I’m old.
Seeing players uploading videos of centre backs doing a ‘Megs’ after you’ve lost 2-0 is beyond me. | | | |
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| The thing that gets me... on 11:55 - Nov 23 with 471 views | 44_not_out |
| The thing that gets me... on 11:39 - Nov 23 by OriginalMarkyP |
Morsy for one. He didn't really want to come here, the move was more or less forced upon him by boro. He's 30. He's an international. He should be playing champ football and wants to play champ football and doesn't at his age have another year to waste in League 1.
Chaplin, I think would go. He clearly isn't happy with being dropped when playing well. Again he's a champ player and has stated he doesn't want to be in L1. I think he'd go.
Walton, Bonne, Celina obvs as loans. Coulson and Barry too but they've not really made an impact anyway.
I think Fraser would go, or push for a move. I get the impression he feels he's played out of position (when he actually plays) and this is stalling his progression. He'd like to get into a Scotland squad and that won't happen when he's a bit part player here.
That's quite a few of our better players. |
Morsey didn’t want to come here??? Is this a fact? I’d never heard that anywhere
Chaplin isn’t happy? Has he actually come out and said that?
‘I THINK Fraser will push for a move’…. Your opinion
So, to recap, lots of assumptions and personal opinion
They’re under contract. They’ll only go if the manager and/or CEO doesn’t want them | | | |
| The thing that gets me... on 12:04 - Nov 23 with 464 views | Wallingford_Boy |
| The thing that gets me... on 10:29 - Nov 23 by DavoIPB |
Much prefer to watch Ipswich. Sunderland are awful. Reminds me of us the last couple of seasons. Even when we won I was bored. |
Sunderland are awful, Wycombe are awful, etc...etc
These "awful" teams seem to be doing ok in that thing called "the league table" though.
I couldn't give a to$$ how we play, we need to get out of this league.. end of.
Results are all that matter (this season anyway). |  |
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| The thing that gets me... on 12:06 - Nov 23 with 464 views | chicoazul |
If we don’t go up I don’t think any of our current players will go. They all signed 3 year deals on very good money. Nobody put a gun to their head as far as I know. I suppose if someone offers us £6m for Edmundson we would take it but that’s not the same thing. |  |
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| The thing that gets me... on 12:07 - Nov 23 with 459 views | pennblue |
Well we won't have such a drastic turnover of staff again. It is more likely we see 3 or 4 new face in, which will give us that incremental improvement. | |
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| The thing that gets me... on 12:11 - Nov 23 with 451 views | chicoazul |
| The thing that gets me... on 11:39 - Nov 23 by OriginalMarkyP |
Morsy for one. He didn't really want to come here, the move was more or less forced upon him by boro. He's 30. He's an international. He should be playing champ football and wants to play champ football and doesn't at his age have another year to waste in League 1.
Chaplin, I think would go. He clearly isn't happy with being dropped when playing well. Again he's a champ player and has stated he doesn't want to be in L1. I think he'd go.
Walton, Bonne, Celina obvs as loans. Coulson and Barry too but they've not really made an impact anyway.
I think Fraser would go, or push for a move. I get the impression he feels he's played out of position (when he actually plays) and this is stalling his progression. He'd like to get into a Scotland squad and that won't happen when he's a bit part player here.
That's quite a few of our better players. |
All players get annoyed when they’re dropped. Those players you mention who are ours are on 3 year deals with very good money. If we don’t go up this year they carry the can in part for that particular failure so it’s be rich sauce indeed if they knocked on Ashtons door, or whoever of the multitude of staff now at the club deal with transfer requests. They will all stay. | |
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| The thing that gets me... on 12:19 - Nov 23 with 443 views | Herbivore |
| The thing that gets me... on 12:11 - Nov 23 by chicoazul |
All players get annoyed when they’re dropped. Those players you mention who are ours are on 3 year deals with very good money. If we don’t go up this year they carry the can in part for that particular failure so it’s be rich sauce indeed if they knocked on Ashtons door, or whoever of the multitude of staff now at the club deal with transfer requests. They will all stay. |
Think you (and others) are being rather naive here. | |
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| The thing that gets me... on 12:27 - Nov 23 with 440 views | OriginalMarkyP |
| The thing that gets me... on 10:28 - Nov 23 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Until very recently we were top scorers in all 4 divisions. We are currently 3rd, behind Liverpool (third in the Prem) and Fulham (top of the Championship).
I don't much care for your "expected" goals table. I'd rather look at the actual tables in all four divisions. The idea that you're "not sure that attacking wise the football is that much better" is clearly bobbins. |
I must admit, a lot of people like to throw the scoring table at the debate.
Or the form table.
But there is only one table that matters. And that currently sees us sitting 10th in the 3rd tier of English Football 1 pt ahead of that massive club Cheltenham Town who have 2 games in hand over us. | |
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| The thing that gets me... on 12:41 - Nov 23 with 415 views | chicoazul |
| The thing that gets me... on 12:19 - Nov 23 by Herbivore |
Think you (and others) are being rather naive here. |
Keen to know why you think that. Under Evans I would agree. This new crew have cash to burn. | |
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| The thing that gets me... on 12:42 - Nov 23 with 415 views | Pinewoodblue |
| The thing that gets me... on 12:27 - Nov 23 by OriginalMarkyP |
I must admit, a lot of people like to throw the scoring table at the debate.
Or the form table.
But there is only one table that matters. And that currently sees us sitting 10th in the 3rd tier of English Football 1 pt ahead of that massive club Cheltenham Town who have 2 games in hand over us. |
Being 9th in the 6 match form table doesn’t suggest we will be climbing up the table anytime soon, especially as the majority of clubs above us in the league table are also above us in the form table.
Matters that PC needs to address, and soon. |  |
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| The thing that gets me... on 13:07 - Nov 23 with 388 views | itfcjoe |
| The thing that gets me... on 12:41 - Nov 23 by chicoazul |
Keen to know why you think that. Under Evans I would agree. This new crew have cash to burn. |
I think it will end up 10 in and 10 out, or thereabouts if we don't go up
The 5 loanees will likely go, there will be at least a couple of the signings that just haven't made an impact and will look to be sold (Currently Carroll a way from it and on 1 year deal, plus Penney seems to be well out of it, maybe Harper).......the general churn of old squad like Holy, Nolan, Jackson and Norwood.......if serious interest in a player who has done well and we can get a good fee for then hard not to take it......
Doesn't take ripping the team up to have another busy summer, it's the norm at this level - we've got 12 players in our 25 man squad who are on loan or out of contract in summer (5 loan, plus Norwood, Nolan, Jackson, Holy, Aluko, Nsiala and Carroll) - how many of those stay?
Plus players who just don't fit in for whatever reason that we might try and shift if we can - Woolf, KVY, Hladky as possibilitiies. Burgess if he can't get into the team, maybe even Fraser
I don't see the likes of Morsy going, he may not have wanted to come here, but he is here and he isn't going to be impressive enough for a Champ club to take on his deal | |
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| The thing that gets me... on 13:09 - Nov 23 with 384 views | Herbivore |
| The thing that gets me... on 12:41 - Nov 23 by chicoazul |
Keen to know why you think that. Under Evans I would agree. This new crew have cash to burn. |
The players we signed didn't pen 3 year deals to sit in League 1 for 3 years. There will be a number of players in the squad who I suspect won't want to play another year at this level if an offer comes in for them. There are others who haven't played anywhere near as much as they would have expected who will want to move on for the sake of their careers. A number of our better players are loanees who won't be here if we're still in League 1. That's before getting on to the need to balance the books, we got a £3.5m boost from player sales that enabled us to have such a big wage bill relative to our level. If we want to spend similar next season we will need to find that money from somewhere. Ashton has hinted that part of the model invovles maximising resale value of players. The notion that we'll keep the sqaud together and add to it and the owners will just stick several million in to cover it is rather fanciful. | |
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| The thing that gets me... on 13:40 - Nov 23 with 350 views | chicoazul |
| The thing that gets me... on 13:09 - Nov 23 by Herbivore |
The players we signed didn't pen 3 year deals to sit in League 1 for 3 years. There will be a number of players in the squad who I suspect won't want to play another year at this level if an offer comes in for them. There are others who haven't played anywhere near as much as they would have expected who will want to move on for the sake of their careers. A number of our better players are loanees who won't be here if we're still in League 1. That's before getting on to the need to balance the books, we got a £3.5m boost from player sales that enabled us to have such a big wage bill relative to our level. If we want to spend similar next season we will need to find that money from somewhere. Ashton has hinted that part of the model invovles maximising resale value of players. The notion that we'll keep the sqaud together and add to it and the owners will just stick several million in to cover it is rather fanciful. |
We’ll see. Actually hopefully we won’t but you get me. | |
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| The thing that gets me... on 13:43 - Nov 23 with 346 views | chicoazul |
| The thing that gets me... on 13:07 - Nov 23 by itfcjoe |
I think it will end up 10 in and 10 out, or thereabouts if we don't go up
The 5 loanees will likely go, there will be at least a couple of the signings that just haven't made an impact and will look to be sold (Currently Carroll a way from it and on 1 year deal, plus Penney seems to be well out of it, maybe Harper).......the general churn of old squad like Holy, Nolan, Jackson and Norwood.......if serious interest in a player who has done well and we can get a good fee for then hard not to take it......
Doesn't take ripping the team up to have another busy summer, it's the norm at this level - we've got 12 players in our 25 man squad who are on loan or out of contract in summer (5 loan, plus Norwood, Nolan, Jackson, Holy, Aluko, Nsiala and Carroll) - how many of those stay?
Plus players who just don't fit in for whatever reason that we might try and shift if we can - Woolf, KVY, Hladky as possibilitiies. Burgess if he can't get into the team, maybe even Fraser
I don't see the likes of Morsy going, he may not have wanted to come here, but he is here and he isn't going to be impressive enough for a Champ club to take on his deal |
I think a lot will depend on if Cook is still here and I am increasingly of the belief that he will be. You’re right about 7 odd leaving, and definitely the loans although I think we might have a chance with Walton, but I’m talking specifically about the 14 we signed on permanent deals. I don’t expect Carroll and maybe Sone to stay but I’d be very surprised if the rest didn’t if indeed we are in this cursed league again next season. | |
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| The thing that gets me... on 13:44 - Nov 23 with 338 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The thing that gets me... on 12:27 - Nov 23 by OriginalMarkyP |
I must admit, a lot of people like to throw the scoring table at the debate.
Or the form table.
But there is only one table that matters. And that currently sees us sitting 10th in the 3rd tier of English Football 1 pt ahead of that massive club Cheltenham Town who have 2 games in hand over us. |
I was specifically answering a point about whether our football is more attacking or not than before, where Herbs was using the "expected" goals table to make his point. I made my point that in 'actual' goals, we're third behind Liverpool and Fulham, in the entire football league. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The thing that gets me... on 13:46 - Nov 23 with 336 views | timothyeo |
| The thing that gets me... on 10:28 - Nov 23 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Until very recently we were top scorers in all 4 divisions. We are currently 3rd, behind Liverpool (third in the Prem) and Fulham (top of the Championship).
I don't much care for your "expected" goals table. I'd rather look at the actual tables in all four divisions. The idea that you're "not sure that attacking wise the football is that much better" is clearly bobbins. |
The actual table has us 10th in League One with the best squad. Underachieving failure. | | | |
| The thing that gets me... on 13:47 - Nov 23 with 335 views | timothyeo |
| The thing that gets me... on 09:28 - Nov 23 by portmanking |
They are smart people. They will have ring-fenced money for all eventualities - including a two or possibly even three-year stay at this level. Ed Schwartz talks about owning the club for 10-15 years if not more. Why people think we're simply going to rip up the squad and start over if we don't go up in May is madness.
There will be a few casualties, particularly an inability to sign our current loanees permanently, but the spine of the team will remain I have no doubt. |
Come on, let's not be this naive.
Yes they're smart people. That's why they'd tell fans they're happy to own the club for 10-15 years. It's also why they'd make that public so the market knows too. It's also why they'd say it isn't imperative we go up this season, even if it is. | | | |
| The thing that gets me... on 13:48 - Nov 23 with 331 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The thing that gets me... on 12:19 - Nov 23 by Herbivore |
Think you (and others) are being rather naive here. |
I think you're being rather illogical. If the team are gelled and flying but just miss out on promotion, why would the owners decide to just break up that team and start again having already invested a lot of time and money in it?
I know you won't answer because you're more interested in moaning and downarrowing facts than having an actual debate. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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