| The thing that gets me... 23:53 - Nov 22 with 3918 views | OriginalMarkyP |
The football is better than last year.
But the tactical inflexibility is just the same if not more solidly entrenched.
The results are by and large the same. The postion slightly worse.
And everyone who says it's a rebuild, fair enough. BUT if we don't go up this season, as some have already pointed out a lot of the players in that rebuild will go.
And then where are we?
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| The thing that gets me... on 13:56 - Nov 23 with 1012 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The thing that gets me... on 12:42 - Nov 23 by Pinewoodblue |
Being 9th in the 6 match form table doesn’t suggest we will be climbing up the table anytime soon, especially as the majority of clubs above us in the league table are also above us in the form table.
Matters that PC needs to address, and soon. |
The form table just relates to points accrued, it doesn't show actual form (in terms of how the players are playing). We are playing very well and were incredibly unlucky not to win comfortably at Sunderland, let alone get nothing, as most commentators have said.
Had we won, which would have been a fair result, most of these debates on here wouldn't even exist now.
People who actually watch our games (and don't have an agenda) can see the improvements. Cook could perhaps address the matter of not scoring but he can do very little about the otherwise excellent Walton's uncharacteristic mistake, or a ridiculous penalty decision.
You can 100% predict tomorrow's posts on here, based purely on the result and no context. |  |
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| The thing that gets me... on 13:58 - Nov 23 with 1009 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The thing that gets me... on 13:07 - Nov 23 by itfcjoe |
I think it will end up 10 in and 10 out, or thereabouts if we don't go up
The 5 loanees will likely go, there will be at least a couple of the signings that just haven't made an impact and will look to be sold (Currently Carroll a way from it and on 1 year deal, plus Penney seems to be well out of it, maybe Harper).......the general churn of old squad like Holy, Nolan, Jackson and Norwood.......if serious interest in a player who has done well and we can get a good fee for then hard not to take it......
Doesn't take ripping the team up to have another busy summer, it's the norm at this level - we've got 12 players in our 25 man squad who are on loan or out of contract in summer (5 loan, plus Norwood, Nolan, Jackson, Holy, Aluko, Nsiala and Carroll) - how many of those stay?
Plus players who just don't fit in for whatever reason that we might try and shift if we can - Woolf, KVY, Hladky as possibilitiies. Burgess if he can't get into the team, maybe even Fraser
I don't see the likes of Morsy going, he may not have wanted to come here, but he is here and he isn't going to be impressive enough for a Champ club to take on his deal |
Do you honestly think we won't sign ANY of the loanees permanently? | |
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| The thing that gets me... on 14:01 - Nov 23 with 998 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The thing that gets me... on 13:09 - Nov 23 by Herbivore |
The players we signed didn't pen 3 year deals to sit in League 1 for 3 years. There will be a number of players in the squad who I suspect won't want to play another year at this level if an offer comes in for them. There are others who haven't played anywhere near as much as they would have expected who will want to move on for the sake of their careers. A number of our better players are loanees who won't be here if we're still in League 1. That's before getting on to the need to balance the books, we got a £3.5m boost from player sales that enabled us to have such a big wage bill relative to our level. If we want to spend similar next season we will need to find that money from somewhere. Ashton has hinted that part of the model invovles maximising resale value of players. The notion that we'll keep the sqaud together and add to it and the owners will just stick several million in to cover it is rather fanciful. |
Given that nobody knows what the owners are thinking, your idea of a clearout and signing none of the loanees is just as fanciful as those thinking we may well keep the team together (and if anything add to it). | |
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| The thing that gets me... on 14:03 - Nov 23 with 991 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The thing that gets me... on 13:43 - Nov 23 by chicoazul |
I think a lot will depend on if Cook is still here and I am increasingly of the belief that he will be. You’re right about 7 odd leaving, and definitely the loans although I think we might have a chance with Walton, but I’m talking specifically about the 14 we signed on permanent deals. I don’t expect Carroll and maybe Sone to stay but I’d be very surprised if the rest didn’t if indeed we are in this cursed league again next season. |
I don't see any reason why we wouldn't sign Bonne permanently. | |
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| The thing that gets me... on 14:04 - Nov 23 with 990 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| The thing that gets me... on 13:58 - Nov 23 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Do you honestly think we won't sign ANY of the loanees permanently? |
Not that ridiculous a shout, is it?
Personally I think there’s a chance that Bonne could be signed still given his links however that probably only happens if he’s good but not exceptional from here on out. If he scores 25+ then it’s hard to believe that neither QPR decide to keep him or others in the Championship show interest in which case we’re up against it. Obviously that’s why we should be trying to get a deal done ASAP but that’s likely to come at a premium as there isn’t really any incentive for QPR to do a deal in Jan unless they need the money
Outside of that, Celina there would be pretty much zero chance and Walton is likely to have better offers, especially as it’s likely that Cook would be gone. Barry won’t be here by then anyway and Coulson has all the hallmarks of being one of the many forgotten loanees of recent years
Who are you expecting us to keep? |  |
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| The thing that gets me... on 14:04 - Nov 23 with 988 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The thing that gets me... on 13:46 - Nov 23 by timothyeo |
The actual table has us 10th in League One with the best squad. Underachieving failure. |
Keep up Timmy, we're talking about attacking/goals specifically. | |
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| The thing that gets me... on 14:09 - Nov 23 with 971 views | itfcjoe |
| The thing that gets me... on 13:58 - Nov 23 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Do you honestly think we won't sign ANY of the loanees permanently? |
If we don't go up then I'd be amazed if we do unless we can get a deal sorted for Bonne in January which isn't out of the question [Post edited 23 Nov 2021 14:10]
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| The thing that gets me... on 14:13 - Nov 23 with 958 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The thing that gets me... on 14:04 - Nov 23 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Not that ridiculous a shout, is it?
Personally I think there’s a chance that Bonne could be signed still given his links however that probably only happens if he’s good but not exceptional from here on out. If he scores 25+ then it’s hard to believe that neither QPR decide to keep him or others in the Championship show interest in which case we’re up against it. Obviously that’s why we should be trying to get a deal done ASAP but that’s likely to come at a premium as there isn’t really any incentive for QPR to do a deal in Jan unless they need the money
Outside of that, Celina there would be pretty much zero chance and Walton is likely to have better offers, especially as it’s likely that Cook would be gone. Barry won’t be here by then anyway and Coulson has all the hallmarks of being one of the many forgotten loanees of recent years
Who are you expecting us to keep? |
It's possible, of course, that we don't sign any of them permanently. But people are stating they'll all be leaving as if it's a fact.
Walton and Coulson (if he's fit) could quite easily sign. Bonne would be a very decent shout as you've said. Championship clubs showed interest in players we've already signed. Celina everyone said we'd have no chance of getting on loan, so it's not against the realms of possibility we'd sign him perm. Barry's the only defo "no chance" for me, who we don't want anyway.
But this is all conjecture, nobody knows the plans of the owners. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The thing that gets me... on 14:14 - Nov 23 with 951 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The thing that gets me... on 14:09 - Nov 23 by itfcjoe |
If we don't go up then I'd be amazed if we do unless we can get a deal sorted for Bonne in January which isn't out of the question [Post edited 23 Nov 2021 14:10]
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So you do think there's a chance for one at least. | |
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| The thing that gets me... on 14:24 - Nov 23 with 935 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| The thing that gets me... on 14:13 - Nov 23 by The_Flashing_Smile |
It's possible, of course, that we don't sign any of them permanently. But people are stating they'll all be leaving as if it's a fact.
Walton and Coulson (if he's fit) could quite easily sign. Bonne would be a very decent shout as you've said. Championship clubs showed interest in players we've already signed. Celina everyone said we'd have no chance of getting on loan, so it's not against the realms of possibility we'd sign him perm. Barry's the only defo "no chance" for me, who we don't want anyway.
But this is all conjecture, nobody knows the plans of the owners. |
No one’s stating anything as fact, they’re just given their opinion that if we don’t go up then we’ll be back to the drawing board as a number of key players will be gone
And it really isn’t a wild opinion as odds will be stacked against us for all of them if we don’t go up. It’s not like we have the same conversation every year with various loanees and end up with the same result | |
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| The thing that gets me... on 14:29 - Nov 23 with 909 views | Mach_foreignBlue |
| The thing that gets me... on 14:13 - Nov 23 by The_Flashing_Smile |
It's possible, of course, that we don't sign any of them permanently. But people are stating they'll all be leaving as if it's a fact.
Walton and Coulson (if he's fit) could quite easily sign. Bonne would be a very decent shout as you've said. Championship clubs showed interest in players we've already signed. Celina everyone said we'd have no chance of getting on loan, so it's not against the realms of possibility we'd sign him perm. Barry's the only defo "no chance" for me, who we don't want anyway.
But this is all conjecture, nobody knows the plans of the owners. |
Walton is easily the Championship quality. If we don't go up he will find some suitors in the league above ours |  | | |
| The thing that gets me... on 14:36 - Nov 23 with 888 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The thing that gets me... on 14:24 - Nov 23 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
No one’s stating anything as fact, they’re just given their opinion that if we don’t go up then we’ll be back to the drawing board as a number of key players will be gone
And it really isn’t a wild opinion as odds will be stacked against us for all of them if we don’t go up. It’s not like we have the same conversation every year with various loanees and end up with the same result |
I've not said it's a wild opinion, I've tried to be balanced as we don't know and it could go either way. But yes, to my mind people are stating it as a fact that these players will be gone. To my mind it's just as likely we do sign Bonne as we don't, for example. But using any of this as evidence of needing to get up because the squad will be decimated (which is the reason people are asserting it - and largely because of an anti-Cook agenda) is flimsy.
I might point out that even if we don't sign any of the loans, I would expect the new owners to sign as good if not better replacements.
Also, re your 'every year' comment, I rather think things have changed on that front due to the new owners. If Evans were still in charge I'd largely agree with you (and we probably wouldn't have got the same calibre of loans in any case). | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The thing that gets me... on 14:37 - Nov 23 with 887 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The thing that gets me... on 14:29 - Nov 23 by Mach_foreignBlue |
Walton is easily the Championship quality. If we don't go up he will find some suitors in the league above ours |
They said the same about Morsy and Celina, probably one or two others too, and yet here we are. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The thing that gets me... on 14:46 - Nov 23 with 871 views | Oldboy |
| The thing that gets me... on 14:03 - Nov 23 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I don't see any reason why we wouldn't sign Bonne permanently. |
Some seem to think that Bonne is a regular Championship scorer, when the truth is that he was 4th choice at a then mid championship side who are doing very well without him. I don't see Championship sides queuing up to sign him. QPR know that their best chance of a sale is to us and think they will be happy to sell him to us for between £1-1.5m for him. That won't be a problem for us no matter what league we are in, bearing in mind that we will be looking to get rid of Norwood, Jackson, Kenlock and possibly Nolan. Barry, Celina and Coulson will be allowed to go back, so Bonne and even Walton deals are possible. (Wage dependant) |  | | |
| The thing that gets me... on 14:47 - Nov 23 with 860 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| The thing that gets me... on 14:36 - Nov 23 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I've not said it's a wild opinion, I've tried to be balanced as we don't know and it could go either way. But yes, to my mind people are stating it as a fact that these players will be gone. To my mind it's just as likely we do sign Bonne as we don't, for example. But using any of this as evidence of needing to get up because the squad will be decimated (which is the reason people are asserting it - and largely because of an anti-Cook agenda) is flimsy.
I might point out that even if we don't sign any of the loans, I would expect the new owners to sign as good if not better replacements.
Also, re your 'every year' comment, I rather think things have changed on that front due to the new owners. If Evans were still in charge I'd largely agree with you (and we probably wouldn't have got the same calibre of loans in any case). |
They may be doing that in your mind but the post you replied to literally said ‘the 5 loanees will likely go’. But obviously if you just ignore what is actually written then yes it is being stated as fact
I also have no idea how you’ve got to the conclusion that it’s an anti-Cook agenda, it’s just the nature of the beast at this level, and if we don’t go up then it’s more likely than not that Cook will be gone anyway
I don’t disagree with your second paragraph, well I sort of do but ultimately we’ll still have strong resources to have another go at it. But it will certainly be another rebuild of sorts and then we’ll be back to excuses territory if we’re sat in mid-table again with 5/6 new players bedding in
Final paragraph seems like fantasy to me - ultimately we’ll see though, or ideally not if we wind up getting promoted and this all becomes redundant | |
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| The thing that gets me... on 14:50 - Nov 23 with 854 views | Funge |
| The thing that gets me... on 14:36 - Nov 23 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I've not said it's a wild opinion, I've tried to be balanced as we don't know and it could go either way. But yes, to my mind people are stating it as a fact that these players will be gone. To my mind it's just as likely we do sign Bonne as we don't, for example. But using any of this as evidence of needing to get up because the squad will be decimated (which is the reason people are asserting it - and largely because of an anti-Cook agenda) is flimsy.
I might point out that even if we don't sign any of the loans, I would expect the new owners to sign as good if not better replacements.
Also, re your 'every year' comment, I rather think things have changed on that front due to the new owners. If Evans were still in charge I'd largely agree with you (and we probably wouldn't have got the same calibre of loans in any case). |
'Anti-Cook agenda' - what does this mean?
I don't support Paul Cook, I support ITFC.
The basic facts are that we have a squad that everyone else in the league would love to have, and that this squad is underperforming relative to the talent therein.
If Cook gets results, we're all happy. Right now, these results are too infrequent, hence the fact we're 10th. |  | | |
| The thing that gets me... on 14:54 - Nov 23 with 845 views | Oldboy |
| The thing that gets me... on 14:50 - Nov 23 by Funge |
'Anti-Cook agenda' - what does this mean?
I don't support Paul Cook, I support ITFC.
The basic facts are that we have a squad that everyone else in the league would love to have, and that this squad is underperforming relative to the talent therein.
If Cook gets results, we're all happy. Right now, these results are too infrequent, hence the fact we're 10th. |
Not everyone else in our league would love our squad. | | | |
| The thing that gets me... on 15:05 - Nov 23 with 818 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The thing that gets me... on 14:47 - Nov 23 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
They may be doing that in your mind but the post you replied to literally said ‘the 5 loanees will likely go’. But obviously if you just ignore what is actually written then yes it is being stated as fact
I also have no idea how you’ve got to the conclusion that it’s an anti-Cook agenda, it’s just the nature of the beast at this level, and if we don’t go up then it’s more likely than not that Cook will be gone anyway
I don’t disagree with your second paragraph, well I sort of do but ultimately we’ll still have strong resources to have another go at it. But it will certainly be another rebuild of sorts and then we’ll be back to excuses territory if we’re sat in mid-table again with 5/6 new players bedding in
Final paragraph seems like fantasy to me - ultimately we’ll see though, or ideally not if we wind up getting promoted and this all becomes redundant |
And when I was responding to Joe I said "you think". When I say it's being stated as fact I don't mean literally by Joe. From earlier in the thread;
"Walton, Bonne, Celina obvs as loans. Coulson and Barry too but they've not really made an impact anyway" - Original MarkyP
"A number of our better players are loanees who won't be here if we're still in League 1" - Herbs
The reason it's an anti-Cook agenda is quite obvious. "If we don't go up our best players will leave" is another stick to beat Cook with. There is no evidence our best players will leave. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The thing that gets me... on 15:07 - Nov 23 with 817 views | Oldboy |
| The thing that gets me... on 14:54 - Nov 23 by Oldboy |
Not everyone else in our league would love our squad. |
Herbivore.
Do you think we have the best defenders in the league?
In case you are struggling, the answer is no.
Rotherham and Sunderland for 2 have better defender for defender than us. That means that we do not have the best squad in the league. It really isn't difficult to understand. Neither Rotherham or Sunderland would swap their strikers for ours either. Our midfield/attacking midfielders are a match for anyone, but that doesn't give us the best squad. Maybe think about things before simply down voting virtually everything I post.
Might want to look at Plymouth and Wigan defence wise also. [Post edited 23 Nov 2021 15:14]
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| The thing that gets me... on 15:10 - Nov 23 with 805 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The thing that gets me... on 14:50 - Nov 23 by Funge |
'Anti-Cook agenda' - what does this mean?
I don't support Paul Cook, I support ITFC.
The basic facts are that we have a squad that everyone else in the league would love to have, and that this squad is underperforming relative to the talent therein.
If Cook gets results, we're all happy. Right now, these results are too infrequent, hence the fact we're 10th. |
I think it's pretty obvious what an anti-Cook agenda means. No idea what the point of your second sentence is, we're all ITFC fans rather than Cook fans.
The basic facts are as you say, but football's a little more nuanced than basic facts. The reason we are 10th is largely due to our poor start, which is largely due to having an entirely new team (and not all of them in by the start either). You could argue that's Cook's fault for chucking out the previous lot, but then they hadn't exactly been covering themselves with glory perviously had they? So we are where we are.
It still baffles me that some just seem to look at the league table and don't apply anymore context than that. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The thing that gets me... on 15:14 - Nov 23 with 796 views | Funge |
| The thing that gets me... on 14:54 - Nov 23 by Oldboy |
Not everyone else in our league would love our squad. |
Nonsense.
We've got a squad where Chaplin, Fraser and Pigott are all on the bench most weeks. Those three alone get into almost any other side in the league, and they're our substitutes. Tom Carroll doesn't even get on the bench; he'd start for, say, 75% of the other teams in this league.
This squad is nuts for this level, and it's underperforming. | | | |
| The thing that gets me... on 15:18 - Nov 23 with 792 views | Funge |
| The thing that gets me... on 15:10 - Nov 23 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I think it's pretty obvious what an anti-Cook agenda means. No idea what the point of your second sentence is, we're all ITFC fans rather than Cook fans.
The basic facts are as you say, but football's a little more nuanced than basic facts. The reason we are 10th is largely due to our poor start, which is largely due to having an entirely new team (and not all of them in by the start either). You could argue that's Cook's fault for chucking out the previous lot, but then they hadn't exactly been covering themselves with glory perviously had they? So we are where we are.
It still baffles me that some just seem to look at the league table and don't apply anymore context than that. |
No, it's not obvious, hence my asking the question. Perhaps you could pay me the courtesy of attempting to answer it.
The rest of your post is excuse-making.
It still baffles me that some consider 3 years in this league to be acceptable for a club of this size, and are now lining up their ducks to make even more excuses, for spending even longer down here. | | | |
| The thing that gets me... on 15:19 - Nov 23 with 790 views | Oldboy |
| The thing that gets me... on 15:14 - Nov 23 by Funge |
Nonsense.
We've got a squad where Chaplin, Fraser and Pigott are all on the bench most weeks. Those three alone get into almost any other side in the league, and they're our substitutes. Tom Carroll doesn't even get on the bench; he'd start for, say, 75% of the other teams in this league.
This squad is nuts for this level, and it's underperforming. |
Would Plymouth, Sunderland, Wigan or Rotherham swap defences with us? No chance. Are Bonne, Norwood, Pigott the best strikers in the league, of course not. That means we do not have the best squad. Midfield/ Attacking Midfield yes, easily the best, but not in the other positions. | | | |
| The thing that gets me... on 15:28 - Nov 23 with 766 views | Funge |
| The thing that gets me... on 15:19 - Nov 23 by Oldboy |
Would Plymouth, Sunderland, Wigan or Rotherham swap defences with us? No chance. Are Bonne, Norwood, Pigott the best strikers in the league, of course not. That means we do not have the best squad. Midfield/ Attacking Midfield yes, easily the best, but not in the other positions. |
Bonne is 3rd top scorer at present, and Piggot scored 20 last year for a properly average Wimbledon side - the only 2 who scored more were Clarke-Harris, who went up with Peterborough, and Wyke, who is now at Wigan.
Quite clearly Bonne and Pigott are in the top echelon of strikers for this level - no idea why anyone would suggest otherwise.
Edmundson and Coulson get into any other defence, and so would KVY (prior to the season, at least). | | | |
| The thing that gets me... on 15:35 - Nov 23 with 753 views | Oldboy |
| The thing that gets me... on 15:28 - Nov 23 by Funge |
Bonne is 3rd top scorer at present, and Piggot scored 20 last year for a properly average Wimbledon side - the only 2 who scored more were Clarke-Harris, who went up with Peterborough, and Wyke, who is now at Wigan.
Quite clearly Bonne and Pigott are in the top echelon of strikers for this level - no idea why anyone would suggest otherwise.
Edmundson and Coulson get into any other defence, and so would KVY (prior to the season, at least). |
Last season is irrelevant.
The question is do we have the best squad now?
Goal difference is 6th best in the league, which would suggest that others have better defence/forwards than ours. As that is more than 50% of the squad, I would suggest that others have better. | | | |
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