| This is horrible news 17:05 - Nov 24 with 4337 views | GlasgowBlue |
That people are so desperate that they put their lives at risk should not be met with hostility. We need to be doing so much more to help refugees settle in the UK so that they don't have to resort to such desperate measure.
R.I.P. all of those who lost their lives.
Edit. Up to 29 dead now. [Post edited 24 Nov 2021 17:41]
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| This is horrible news on 20:03 - Nov 24 with 1677 views | eireblue |
| This is horrible news on 19:30 - Nov 24 by Lord_Lucan |
So if you spoke French and not English right now you would risk your life in a boat to travel in all weathers from Dover to Calais? |
Oh come on, if we are doing hypotheticals, let’s make them more interesting.
You have lost everything due to a war or maybe just your standard persecution. You are on your own, living in your second makeshift-camp, the first was destroyed by the local plod, and you are cold, hungry, no family, no future, and you are being hassled by criminals, and you don’t speak the local lingo, so you likely can’t easily shop or work anytime soon, and you had a relative about 25 miles away.
Would you,
A. stay in the camp, with no control of your future,
B. or get the flock out
I think between one hypothetical, simple lack of language, and my hypothetical, lack of language and other difficulties, there is a tipping point between choosing A and B. |  | | |
| This is horrible news on 20:42 - Nov 24 with 1618 views | textbackup |
| This is horrible news on 18:57 - Nov 24 by Whos_blue |
Oh dear.
Please consider taking the opportunity to come back and explain that you misspoke and it was a poorly timed and executed attempt at dry humour.
I think you'll feel better for it.
This doesn't read well for you mate. |
I’ve no idea how people vote changes such a tragic event?
Why he’s made that political I’ve no idea either |  |
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| This is horrible news on 20:57 - Nov 24 with 1597 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| This is horrible news on 20:42 - Nov 24 by textbackup |
I’ve no idea how people vote changes such a tragic event?
Why he’s made that political I’ve no idea either |
Maybe listen to Priti Patel and the rest of the vocal ruling party on immigration and then listen to shadow MPs on it?
Maybe look at why the Dubs agreement was agreed ... and then stopped by this Government before being fully implemented.
How can you NOT see that this Government is promoting the hostile environment and very happy to see those attempting to cross drown. Priti Patel (with the support of the ruling party) even passed a law to make it illegal for people to save the life of drowning immigrants. |  |
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| This is horrible news on 21:05 - Nov 24 with 1583 views | RadioOrwell |
| This is horrible news on 20:42 - Nov 24 by textbackup |
I’ve no idea how people vote changes such a tragic event?
Why he’s made that political I’ve no idea either |
google anything like " Pritti Patel Daily Mail immigrants hoards invasion ' etc etc |  | | |
| This is horrible news on 21:18 - Nov 24 with 1553 views | eireblue |
| This is horrible news on 20:57 - Nov 24 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Maybe listen to Priti Patel and the rest of the vocal ruling party on immigration and then listen to shadow MPs on it?
Maybe look at why the Dubs agreement was agreed ... and then stopped by this Government before being fully implemented.
How can you NOT see that this Government is promoting the hostile environment and very happy to see those attempting to cross drown. Priti Patel (with the support of the ruling party) even passed a law to make it illegal for people to save the life of drowning immigrants. |
Is that the same Priti Patel that said during a discussion on the current situation,
”The party opposite continues to defend the rights of foreign national offenders, including murderers, rapists and those involved in the drugs trade”
Surely, migrants are generally trying to avoid murderers, rapists, and criminals? Not entirely sure, but she may have missed the point, surely unusual for a Secretary of State in a position of importance.
Of course we don’t see much condemnation of the French, and that they have violated Human Rights, as decided by the European court that looks into such things.
I guess the current government can’t really make that point.
Oi French Government, respect the European Court for Human Rights, and look after your migrants,……..and errrrr……ummmm……Daily Mail readers, look at those soft liberal lefties lawyers abusing the Human Rights act to protect refug……sorry keep illegal immigrant murderers and rapists in luxury council houses with SkyQ in the UK. | | | |
| This is horrible news on 21:29 - Nov 24 with 1528 views | GlasgowBlue |
| This is horrible news on 19:36 - Nov 24 by mutters |
I note that the OP has edited the posting, so if I have taken something out of context then that might be the situation here.
However as it currently stands, it was the first response, no reference was made to the tradegy just straight into attacking the governmenet. Not a moment to pause to reflect on the loss of life. Seemed a bit callous to me.
However, if I had misread it due to the situation then I will retract it. |
I’ve been out all evening and have only just seen this. The edit was the number of people who have died. When I posted it was 20. By the time of my edit it was 29. There have been more confirmed deaths since then. No words in my op were edited.
Mullers was right to focus on the word ‘hostility’ and make it political. The current government are engineering hostile feelings towards immigrants. And sadly not just against people arriving here. They are stoking a culture war against people of colour who were born here.
I don’t doubt that a more refugee friendly government would lead to less people trying to gain entry illegally. Cameron promised much with regards to taking in refugees but delivered little. Johnson doesn’t even bother hiding the fact that he doesn’t give a toss, | |
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| This is horrible news on 21:48 - Nov 24 with 1492 views | mutters |
| This is horrible news on 19:52 - Nov 24 by Mullet |
The edit had absolutely nothing to do with you completely misreading the thread.
I notice you didn't attempt to contextualise your defence of the current status quo either. Why is that? You were so adamant how wrong I was. |
Mullet having reread the thread, I agree I misread what you were actually saying.
Apologies. |  |
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| This is horrible news on 21:48 - Nov 24 with 1490 views | Swansea_Blue |
| This is horrible news on 19:06 - Nov 24 by mutters |
Seriously, trying to score political points on the back of a tragedy? That's your first thought in response to the original poster? |
its a political tragedy. Politics is displacing them and politics is leading to no safe routes. |  |
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| This is horrible news on 21:52 - Nov 24 with 1485 views | Swansea_Blue |
| This is horrible news on 21:29 - Nov 24 by GlasgowBlue |
I’ve been out all evening and have only just seen this. The edit was the number of people who have died. When I posted it was 20. By the time of my edit it was 29. There have been more confirmed deaths since then. No words in my op were edited.
Mullers was right to focus on the word ‘hostility’ and make it political. The current government are engineering hostile feelings towards immigrants. And sadly not just against people arriving here. They are stoking a culture war against people of colour who were born here.
I don’t doubt that a more refugee friendly government would lead to less people trying to gain entry illegally. Cameron promised much with regards to taking in refugees but delivered little. Johnson doesn’t even bother hiding the fact that he doesn’t give a toss, |
it's horrendous isn't it. It needs a collaborative response across nations (at source and then along the route) and then an efficient setup at our end to facilitate safe access and rapid processing of asylum claims.
We're not even close. If half the energy that went into demonising them went into trying to actually solve the problem, we' be in a much better place. | |
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| This is horrible news on 21:56 - Nov 24 with 1464 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| This is horrible news on 21:52 - Nov 24 by Swansea_Blue |
it's horrendous isn't it. It needs a collaborative response across nations (at source and then along the route) and then an efficient setup at our end to facilitate safe access and rapid processing of asylum claims.
We're not even close. If half the energy that went into demonising them went into trying to actually solve the problem, we' be in a much better place. |
Indeed. The reason we are not even close is because there is no will to get close. Indeed, there is a deliberate will to be seen to make it as difficult and convoluted as possible. | |
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| This is horrible news on 07:20 - Nov 25 with 1323 views | textbackup |
| This is horrible news on 20:57 - Nov 24 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Maybe listen to Priti Patel and the rest of the vocal ruling party on immigration and then listen to shadow MPs on it?
Maybe look at why the Dubs agreement was agreed ... and then stopped by this Government before being fully implemented.
How can you NOT see that this Government is promoting the hostile environment and very happy to see those attempting to cross drown. Priti Patel (with the support of the ruling party) even passed a law to make it illegal for people to save the life of drowning immigrants. |
yeah we wont agree on this, so will leave it there | |
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| This is horrible news on 07:24 - Nov 25 with 1319 views | unbelievablue |
| This is horrible news on 18:37 - Nov 24 by Lord_Lucan |
It's terrible news, really awful, I can't imagine the terror of it all.
But let's get something straight here -
1/ Why are these people risking their lives to flee a safe country to enter another safe country? It makes no sense at all.
2/ Why aren't the French border force and Navy doing more to stop these crossings and or turn these boats back before they hit deep water and danger - this is not a difficult task should they wish to do so.
............and before I get the TW4TD standard - "You are a racist, nazi scumbag" let me tell you that I have absolutely no problem with immigration, I welcome it and would be happy to take much more than we officially do - but they should be vetted and be accepted from official refugee camps, there should also be an emphasis put on families and children.
There is no place for gangster funded makeshift death trap boats being allowed to make this crossing. [Post edited 24 Nov 2021 18:38]
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2 is very relevant.
1 not so much. Why do you care that they'd rather be here than France? There is no onus on asylum seekers to apply for political asylum in the first safe country they reach under the Geneva Convention. Indeed, it's not like they crossed a border from Syria into France directly (although I understand there are some sea-routes across the Med).
EDIT - additionally, for various reasons the lawful application process for asylum seekers is considerably more difficult now than it ever has been. This makes these crossings far more likely. [Post edited 25 Nov 2021 7:29]
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| This is horrible news on 07:52 - Nov 25 with 1295 views | StokieBlue |
| This is horrible news on 18:37 - Nov 24 by Lord_Lucan |
It's terrible news, really awful, I can't imagine the terror of it all.
But let's get something straight here -
1/ Why are these people risking their lives to flee a safe country to enter another safe country? It makes no sense at all.
2/ Why aren't the French border force and Navy doing more to stop these crossings and or turn these boats back before they hit deep water and danger - this is not a difficult task should they wish to do so.
............and before I get the TW4TD standard - "You are a racist, nazi scumbag" let me tell you that I have absolutely no problem with immigration, I welcome it and would be happy to take much more than we officially do - but they should be vetted and be accepted from official refugee camps, there should also be an emphasis put on families and children.
There is no place for gangster funded makeshift death trap boats being allowed to make this crossing. [Post edited 24 Nov 2021 18:38]
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Just been listening to a piece on this on the radio and apparently only ~3% of migrants into Europe try and make their way to the UK and the majority do stop in "safe countries" long before they try and get to the UK. Each year ~5 times as many migrants stay in France than try to progress to the UK.
The 3% who do try and continue on to the UK do so for specific reasons such as family being here or speaking the language.
SB |  | | |
| This is horrible news on 07:54 - Nov 25 with 1287 views | unbelievablue |
| This is horrible news on 07:52 - Nov 25 by StokieBlue |
Just been listening to a piece on this on the radio and apparently only ~3% of migrants into Europe try and make their way to the UK and the majority do stop in "safe countries" long before they try and get to the UK. Each year ~5 times as many migrants stay in France than try to progress to the UK.
The 3% who do try and continue on to the UK do so for specific reasons such as family being here or speaking the language.
SB |
Indeed. It is a perception problem - i.e. people really underestimate the numbers continent wide, and assume we're the no.1 choice for all migrants. | |
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| This is horrible news on 08:25 - Nov 25 with 1261 views | clive_baker |
| This is horrible news on 19:40 - Nov 24 by MattinLondon |
No, personally I wouldn’t. But then again I’m not fleeing from a war zone and desperately want a better life for myself and my family. |
Also worth noting that as well as family and language, a lot can’t stand France due to how they’ve been treated. Stuck in these camps for months on end under the absolute worst conditions. It shouldn’t be legal, they’re treated worse than cattle. Who can blame them for wanting to get the hell out of there. |  |
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| This is horrible news on 11:13 - Nov 25 with 1200 views | Lord_Lucan |
| This is horrible news on 19:56 - Nov 24 by eireblue |
That article doesn’t negate what I said.
The bits that seem pertinent are “ Technically correct, but resettled refugees are only a subset of all refugees a country might take in.”
And in the section titled “ A number of EU countries grant asylum to more refugees than the UK does”
You may have missed
“ Excluding asylum applications where the outcome was unknown, but including those who were successful after appealing an initial rejection, 35% of asylum applicants to the UK were granted asylum or another form of protection in 2017–the lowest level since 2006.”
E.g. on percentage terms, the U.K. was reducing the number being accepted. |
No, I didn't miss anything.
You said that UK doesn't provide safe legal routes but Full Fact data shows that UK settles more asylum seekers / refugees than any other European country by way of safe legal routes.
The reason why Germany, France etc has a higher take up of refugees / Asylum seekers than UK is purely because they are stuck with them, they don't put an ad in the paper to invite everyone in, the poor sods want a better way of life and they can get to Germany or France without having to pay gangsters money to risk their own lives.
.........but let's not let that fact stop us all from rubbishing our country, yes, the one that people risk their lives to come to.
Due to this thread last night was the first time I've really studied immigration figures and the one thing I have deduced from them is that they are as accurate as Covid death rates. No one knows how many immigrants any country has as they are largely undetected and keeping their heads down and working in chicken or kebab shops. If you have entered a country and not declared yourself, what better way to earn some money than serving food to fat lazy arses for £2 an hour - Boo, hiss Lucan you daft racist.
Quite frankly I'm sick of people queuing up on here to put our country down, my advice is to feck off to Scotland and live with Herbivore in paradise.
Oh, and God save the Queen. |  |
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| This is horrible news on 15:05 - Nov 25 with 1128 views | GlasgowBlue |
Got this in my inbox this morning. Please follow the link and email your local MP today.
Hi Glassers,
"If people would understand how dangerous the journey is, and what the challenges are in crossing, they wouldn't ask why we flee… [They would understand] that we are either dead or alive, there's no third option for us."
These are the words of Aliyah*, a young woman who was forced to flee her home country when her husband was targeted by the Government for demonstrating for their basic human rights. She stepped onto a small boat on a French shore with her husband and looked at our country for hope.
Yesterday, at least 27 people, including three children and a pregnant woman, lost their lives because they too had no third option. Words cannot express the horror we feel today at the worst humanitarian tragedy of its kind ever recorded on our borders. These were people who dreamt of starting a new life in safety. Safety most of us have the privilege of taking for granted every day. Now those dreams lie at the bottom of the sea.
But we also feel anger today. Anger at the fact we have spent all year calling on the Government to change its approach to those seeking safety. The fact we have warned time and again that the Home Secretary’s headline grabbing “get tough quick” policies have not only been cruel but dangerous. That they would do nothing to stop people putting their lives in the hands of smugglers.
And so we are appalled to see that this Government’s response to yesterday’s horror is to double down on its Anti-Refugee Bill as the “solution”. But for people like you, who see the Bill for what it is, those tactics will not work. This Bill will only cause more misery for people who deserve protection, not punishment. Even worse, we know it will lead to more deaths in the Channel. 
Soon MPs will be voting on the Anti-Refugee Bill before it moves to its next stage in the House of Lords. Now, more than ever, we need as many MPs as possible to give the Bill a resounding NO. 
Of course, we know that the Government’s large majority in the House of Commons means the Bill is very likely to be voted through. But it must not do so unopposed. It is essential that no one can argue the Bill and all it represents has wide support, especially in light of yesterday’s tragedy. We know that it doesn’t. In fact, three out of five voters disagree with the Bill’s central policy of treating refugees differently just because of how they arrived in the UK.
This is why I am asking you to email your MP today to ask them to vote against this Bill. We must bear witness, and draw lawmakers’ attention to the injustice of these cruel proposals by encouraging each and every MP to speak the truth to a Government dealing in dishonesty.
We know that on days like this it is all too easy to feel powerless. But your voice matters. Our movement matters. So thank you for taking action and being on this difficult journey with us. This is what it means to stand up for asylum. 
Mariam
Head of Campaigns
PS - We will be campaigning against the Anti-Refugee Bill and its consequences for months, if not years, to come. Can you donate to help us in this fight? Even a small donation will help our campaign go even further.
*Aliyah has chosen to use a pseudonym to protect her identity.
https://act.refugee-action.org.uk/page/93735/action/1?ea.tracking.id=Email1& | |
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| This is horrible news on 15:30 - Nov 25 with 1105 views | eireblue |
| This is horrible news on 11:13 - Nov 25 by Lord_Lucan |
No, I didn't miss anything.
You said that UK doesn't provide safe legal routes but Full Fact data shows that UK settles more asylum seekers / refugees than any other European country by way of safe legal routes.
The reason why Germany, France etc has a higher take up of refugees / Asylum seekers than UK is purely because they are stuck with them, they don't put an ad in the paper to invite everyone in, the poor sods want a better way of life and they can get to Germany or France without having to pay gangsters money to risk their own lives.
.........but let's not let that fact stop us all from rubbishing our country, yes, the one that people risk their lives to come to.
Due to this thread last night was the first time I've really studied immigration figures and the one thing I have deduced from them is that they are as accurate as Covid death rates. No one knows how many immigrants any country has as they are largely undetected and keeping their heads down and working in chicken or kebab shops. If you have entered a country and not declared yourself, what better way to earn some money than serving food to fat lazy arses for £2 an hour - Boo, hiss Lucan you daft racist.
Quite frankly I'm sick of people queuing up on here to put our country down, my advice is to feck off to Scotland and live with Herbivore in paradise.
Oh, and God save the Queen. |
Nobody has called you a racist.
Not like you to try and play some sort of argument from such a position.
You are conflating dismissal of the policies of a Government with rubbishing a country.
I suggest it is not the duty of a citizen to blindly believe and follow the government.
Yes. Some countries have much better identity schemes that reduce the amount of black market employment. Yes we should adopt that for the protection of workers.
On resettlement schemes. Maybe you could have a look at the current one for Afghan refugees.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/afghan-citizens-resettlement-scheme
Two quotes are pertinent, I think, to this discussion.
“ People who were notified by the UK government that they had been called forward or specifically authorised for evacuation, but were not able to board flights, will also be offered a place under the scheme if they subsequently come to the UK.”
E.g. All good, if you get to the UK…
There is some other stuff as well…but..
“ The scheme is not yet open. Please check this page regularly. Further details will be announced in due course.”
That last phrase will only be helpful for refugees that have the ability to check back regularly. Having a mobile phone with a data plan, would probably be helpful.
And finally, watch this. The Republic should also make it much easier to apply for asylum before arriving on the Island.
See it is not difficult to be critical of the policies of a country.
Maybe that is the difference between a citizen and a subject. [Post edited 25 Nov 2021 15:34]
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| This is horrible news on 16:04 - Nov 25 with 1090 views | Lord_Lucan |
| This is horrible news on 15:30 - Nov 25 by eireblue |
Nobody has called you a racist.
Not like you to try and play some sort of argument from such a position.
You are conflating dismissal of the policies of a Government with rubbishing a country.
I suggest it is not the duty of a citizen to blindly believe and follow the government.
Yes. Some countries have much better identity schemes that reduce the amount of black market employment. Yes we should adopt that for the protection of workers.
On resettlement schemes. Maybe you could have a look at the current one for Afghan refugees.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/afghan-citizens-resettlement-scheme
Two quotes are pertinent, I think, to this discussion.
“ People who were notified by the UK government that they had been called forward or specifically authorised for evacuation, but were not able to board flights, will also be offered a place under the scheme if they subsequently come to the UK.”
E.g. All good, if you get to the UK…
There is some other stuff as well…but..
“ The scheme is not yet open. Please check this page regularly. Further details will be announced in due course.”
That last phrase will only be helpful for refugees that have the ability to check back regularly. Having a mobile phone with a data plan, would probably be helpful.
And finally, watch this. The Republic should also make it much easier to apply for asylum before arriving on the Island.
See it is not difficult to be critical of the policies of a country.
Maybe that is the difference between a citizen and a subject. [Post edited 25 Nov 2021 15:34]
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"I suggest it is not the duty of a citizen to blindly believe and follow the government"
I'm not doing this, I quoted from Full fact.
I think we should take more immigrants - but the boat route should be stopped - although I don't think it can when The French probably think it's quite convenient. | |
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| This is horrible news on 16:18 - Nov 25 with 1070 views | Mullet |
| This is horrible news on 21:48 - Nov 24 by mutters |
Mullet having reread the thread, I agree I misread what you were actually saying.
Apologies. |
No harm done |  |
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| This is horrible news on 16:28 - Nov 25 with 1055 views | RadioOrwell |
| This is horrible news on 07:52 - Nov 25 by StokieBlue |
Just been listening to a piece on this on the radio and apparently only ~3% of migrants into Europe try and make their way to the UK and the majority do stop in "safe countries" long before they try and get to the UK. Each year ~5 times as many migrants stay in France than try to progress to the UK.
The 3% who do try and continue on to the UK do so for specific reasons such as family being here or speaking the language.
SB |
They fact that they very clearly have reason for coming here - whatever they are - seems beyond the understanding of many.
I don't need to know what they are.
I am going to assume that a 26 mile dinghy trip in November isn't for fun. | | | |
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