| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up 07:54 - Dec 16 with 3824 views | Dubtractor |
Twice it has happened with Hurst and Cook, and twice we've taken a stable if unspectacular team and ended up a mess with a load of players no better, or worse, than we had before.
Ashton, and Evans before him, are obviously culpable too.
Obviously we've signed some decent players last summer, but bloody hell we've signed some dross too, and such wholesale change has left us an incoherent mess. And that was the case under Cook too, even it never got as bad as last night.
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| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:03 - Dec 16 with 2579 views | Steve_M |
Keane too, having said the squad didn't need major changes. To think some of us spent the Summer warning that wholesale change wasn't a good idea and not every player needed binning.
It's there again though after last night, long lists of players who fans want to never play again. Teams do not improve just through lots of new signings but by coaching to make them work better as a team. We had very little of that from Cook and his coaching team with either squad of players here.
In addition to the mess, confidence is low on and off the pitch - who really expected a comfortable win for us last night? - and we need to start again from Saturday. The real annoyance last night was that it cost McGreal a week on the training ground doing some of the basics we lack. [Post edited 16 Dec 2021 8:32]
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| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:07 - Dec 16 with 2549 views | wkj |
I agree:
Keane did it
Hurst did it
Cook had to do it - but went too gungho.
Who actually feels a connection to ITFC out of our current squad? Nolan? Toto? Donacien?
That is about all I can think of. |  |
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| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:10 - Dec 16 with 2513 views | ITFCBlues |
Some people suggesting that all this side needs is some organisation and we'd climb the table?
The players and side are better than what they're showing so to say the side is "no better than before" isn't accurate for me.
To allow Cook to build a squad and then sack him after 4 months needs questioning, however. |  |
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| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:13 - Dec 16 with 2498 views | itfcserbia |
| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:07 - Dec 16 by wkj |
I agree:
Keane did it
Hurst did it
Cook had to do it - but went too gungho.
Who actually feels a connection to ITFC out of our current squad? Nolan? Toto? Donacien?
That is about all I can think of. |
I almost always agree with your posts wkj but I don't think Cook really had to do it. Some big changes (positions) yes, but the whole squad of 20 players? I don't know of a single team ever that needed getting rid of the whole squad. In hindsight (easy to say) there's a feeling he was just a wrong man at the wrong time for the job needed.
Ironically back then our caretaker manager was doing fine but we had a replacement ready, while now our caretaker manager is not doing fine at all but we are nowhere near naming a replacement it seams. |  |
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| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:14 - Dec 16 with 2493 views | FightingEssex |
Decent? Aside from Edmondson, Burns and Bonne (a loan) who did we sign that's really shown anything decent at all? Walton is okay, Celina has had flashes, Aluko has done okay, Chaplin has had moments but the likes of Hladky, Penny, Harper, Evans, Piggott, Fraser, Barry (remember him), Carroll, Burgess, Coulson, Edwards and Morsy... they have been broadly absolutely atrocious for us. Championship side in waiting? I bet we'd be 12th in the league below with these lot. I also stand by the fact we didn't upgrade, our backline with Holy, Ward, Chambers, Woolfie, Wilson, Kenlock and co was much more solid than what we have now, as proven by how much better they did, we didn't upgrade on Downes, Dozzell and Bishop at all, so we lost a core of decent midfielders and replace it with some of the worse we have ever seen.
The bomb squad was a myth that Cook created and people bought because it was much easier to believe that than the fact Cook without Richardson was not going to deliver here. |  |
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| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:15 - Dec 16 with 2472 views | dirtyboy |
Buck stops at the top for me. |  | | |
| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:18 - Dec 16 with 2400 views | DanTheMan |
| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:14 - Dec 16 by FightingEssex |
Decent? Aside from Edmondson, Burns and Bonne (a loan) who did we sign that's really shown anything decent at all? Walton is okay, Celina has had flashes, Aluko has done okay, Chaplin has had moments but the likes of Hladky, Penny, Harper, Evans, Piggott, Fraser, Barry (remember him), Carroll, Burgess, Coulson, Edwards and Morsy... they have been broadly absolutely atrocious for us. Championship side in waiting? I bet we'd be 12th in the league below with these lot. I also stand by the fact we didn't upgrade, our backline with Holy, Ward, Chambers, Woolfie, Wilson, Kenlock and co was much more solid than what we have now, as proven by how much better they did, we didn't upgrade on Downes, Dozzell and Bishop at all, so we lost a core of decent midfielders and replace it with some of the worse we have ever seen.
The bomb squad was a myth that Cook created and people bought because it was much easier to believe that than the fact Cook without Richardson was not going to deliver here. |
Are we seriously back at "all the players are rubbish" again?
Feck me, people really don't learn. [Post edited 16 Dec 2021 8:47]
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| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:24 - Dec 16 with 2337 views | Herbivore |
| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:10 - Dec 16 by ITFCBlues |
Some people suggesting that all this side needs is some organisation and we'd climb the table?
The players and side are better than what they're showing so to say the side is "no better than before" isn't accurate for me.
To allow Cook to build a squad and then sack him after 4 months needs questioning, however. |
I think it's accurate to say they are no better based on performances and results to date. They may go on to be better, but right now that statement is demonstrably correct. |  |
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| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:26 - Dec 16 with 2324 views | Jon_456 |
Hurst tore up the team and replaced them with tosh.
Cook improved the squad dramatically. Theres probably only Downes, Dozzell and Wilson I'd have kept from last season and even then, two wanted to leave.
McGreal has to accept the blame for that one last night, that set up was terrible and took too long to make changes. |  | | |
| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:32 - Dec 16 with 2240 views | Metal_Hacker |
| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:07 - Dec 16 by wkj |
I agree:
Keane did it
Hurst did it
Cook had to do it - but went too gungho.
Who actually feels a connection to ITFC out of our current squad? Nolan? Toto? Donacien?
That is about all I can think of. |
I really have no connection with any of the players
No connection at all , no favourite player,not one I look forward to seeing ,not one I can bank on,not one I can say is proud to wear the blue shirt
Sad times |  |
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| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:35 - Dec 16 with 2200 views | gordon |
| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:18 - Dec 16 by DanTheMan |
Are we seriously back at "all the players are rubbish" again?
Feck me, people really don't learn. [Post edited 16 Dec 2021 8:47]
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Yup - the transfer business was pretty rubbish and we've wasted loads of money, but the biggest mistake we made was putting all our eggs in the 'get promoted in one season' basket. It heaped loads of pressure on the players and the manager, and the club looks completely shot of confidence. Sacking Cook without a replacement lined up or a coaching team in place before this run of games was criminal, because it's left the players completely exposed.
What we desperately need is to lower our expectations, try and spend the rest of this season finding a playing philosophy, getting good coaches in place, get a system, get a strategy. Absolutely no short-term flings to get promoted this season.
We do need to probably forget about Carroll and Fraser and Celina for the most part - they just don't have the energy to be part of an effective press at this level.
Bring in an energetic young defensive midfielder to play alongside Morsy (Dru Yearwood would be an interesting signing, maybe just about possible) and a left wing-back unless Coulsen is fit soon in January. Play 3 centre-backs - Donacien, Edmundson, Woolfenden - and stick with them even if there's a few mistakes! |  | | |
| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:39 - Dec 16 with 2142 views | chicoazul |
Cook was an Evans appointment. He therefore would almost certainly have enjoyed the full contractual autonomy and control on the football side that Evans’ previous managers enjoyed/used to wreck the club. You’re right that this can never happen again and the way the club is built off field now shows it probably won’t.
That’s not to say devolving certain decisions to the executive level will be better of course. |  |
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| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:43 - Dec 16 with 2095 views | tractorboy1978 |
I don't think we have signed much dross to be honest, but we've certainly signed some and not got the best out of them.
Fraser is the most obvious one - 30 goals and 27 assists over the last 3 seasons and we've continually played him out of position in a formation that doesn't suit.
Burgess, a rock for Accrington in a back 3 and signed to play in a two at CB?
Pigott, prolific scorer at this level but not a surprise he's struggling for form when he barely gets a kick!
A lot of these players were wanted by Championship clubs in the summer, they aren't bad players. We just look so disorganised, poorly coached and lacking in confidence. We have a more than good enough squad (perhaps with a couple of tweaks) for a new man to get us motoring. We need a strong personality and someone that can find a system/style to maximise the ability of those we have. | | | |
| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:45 - Dec 16 with 2069 views | SomethingBlue |
A good point and that's why we will probably see more of a head coach come in now. | |
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| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:46 - Dec 16 with 2051 views | wkj |
| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:13 - Dec 16 by itfcserbia |
I almost always agree with your posts wkj but I don't think Cook really had to do it. Some big changes (positions) yes, but the whole squad of 20 players? I don't know of a single team ever that needed getting rid of the whole squad. In hindsight (easy to say) there's a feeling he was just a wrong man at the wrong time for the job needed.
Ironically back then our caretaker manager was doing fine but we had a replacement ready, while now our caretaker manager is not doing fine at all but we are nowhere near naming a replacement it seams. |
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. When I said gungho, I meant in relation to what you're saying with your post.
Doz, Bishop, Edwards and Downes
I doubt Cook had much choice here to be honest, all four were likely wanting out.
Skuse, Sears, Chambers, Judge
All four of our elders are struggling in L2 - I think these were justified releases
Lankester, Ward, Pzybek, Wright
Never really cut the mustard for me
Drinan, Wilson, Folami, Nydam, Hawkins, Cornell
This is the interesting group:
Drinan - Poor conversion last season, but really good at dragging players around in deep positions. I am not just saying this as he's done well at Orient, but I have consistently believed we let go too soon.
Wilson - Player of the season, we never should have let go without having a clear replacement in first.
Foami and Nydam - I thought they were both still in development, I may be wrong but it felt odd seeing those two booted out.
Hawkins - Poor season last year, but we might have done well to work with him a little longer.
Cornell - Hindsight is wonderful, but he was more the adequate backup. Clearly Cook wanted a better goalie, but I think that is his biggest balls-up area. Hladky was rubbish, Holy was sent on loan and did well, Walton could be up there as one of the players of the season so far - which is saying something about how over worked he is.
(Breathes in, post almost done)
In short though, Cook got rid of players before he got them in - and that is stupid management of the highest degree. This is why we have a bloated attack and a paper-thin defence - they worked from the front to the back and ran out of time. | |
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| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:51 - Dec 16 with 1976 views | Herbivore |
| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:18 - Dec 16 by DanTheMan |
Are we seriously back at "all the players are rubbish" again?
Feck me, people really don't learn. [Post edited 16 Dec 2021 8:47]
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Indeed. On paper the squad is more than good enough to get promotion, on paper Cook was a good enough manager to get us out of this league. Unfortunately football isn't played on paper and there's a lot of moving parts to it, and clearly we've fallen well short of turning a very good squad into an effective team. That doesn't mean we need to bin off the whole squad and start from scratch. There are several players who have shown little to date who could easily flourish under a new manager. | |
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| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:57 - Dec 16 with 1920 views | itfcserbia |
| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:46 - Dec 16 by wkj |
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. When I said gungho, I meant in relation to what you're saying with your post.
Doz, Bishop, Edwards and Downes
I doubt Cook had much choice here to be honest, all four were likely wanting out.
Skuse, Sears, Chambers, Judge
All four of our elders are struggling in L2 - I think these were justified releases
Lankester, Ward, Pzybek, Wright
Never really cut the mustard for me
Drinan, Wilson, Folami, Nydam, Hawkins, Cornell
This is the interesting group:
Drinan - Poor conversion last season, but really good at dragging players around in deep positions. I am not just saying this as he's done well at Orient, but I have consistently believed we let go too soon.
Wilson - Player of the season, we never should have let go without having a clear replacement in first.
Foami and Nydam - I thought they were both still in development, I may be wrong but it felt odd seeing those two booted out.
Hawkins - Poor season last year, but we might have done well to work with him a little longer.
Cornell - Hindsight is wonderful, but he was more the adequate backup. Clearly Cook wanted a better goalie, but I think that is his biggest balls-up area. Hladky was rubbish, Holy was sent on loan and did well, Walton could be up there as one of the players of the season so far - which is saying something about how over worked he is.
(Breathes in, post almost done)
In short though, Cook got rid of players before he got them in - and that is stupid management of the highest degree. This is why we have a bloated attack and a paper-thin defence - they worked from the front to the back and ran out of time. |
Yes, agree quite a few could have been worked with more and I was personally very disappointed we let Nydam go and so soon after coming back from a terrible injury. This was all just poor coaching and management. Or mismanagement.
Edwards and Bishop I think only wanted out after Cook became obvious with his plans. And elders might have been kept on within the squad with not so much playing time, more of a coaching transition and work culture. While understandably struggling at the end of their careers play wise, Chambers and Skuse could have never been pointed out for lack of effort or work put in. With the right management that could have been put in good use while assembling a new squad.
Talking on the outside of course all this God only knows what was really going on inside the club at such a turbulent time... | |
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| However, on 08:58 - Dec 16 with 1914 views | Guthrum |
that was partly down to another issue we had.
Due to the lack of development and proper succession planning, a lot of our most stalwart players were coming to the end of their careers, in their thirties and (with the odd exception) missing chunks of the season due to injury. It had got to the stage where there needed to be a significant degree of renewal. Time had pretty much run out for anything incremental.
The squad was also overloaded with middle-of-the-road players who were not really going anywhere and youngsters who had had their early careers blighted by serious injury and were struggling to push on.
The club had rather painted itself into a corner. I'm not sure that our first-choice defence could have gone on for another season - LB (35 and injury issues), CB (31 and injury issues), Nsiala, RB (35), alternatives Woolfenden, Kenlock and a Youth on loan. KVY hasn't got back to his best, Donacien has been a revelation, but that wasn't expected before the summer. |  |
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| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 09:01 - Dec 16 with 1847 views | wkj |
| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:57 - Dec 16 by itfcserbia |
Yes, agree quite a few could have been worked with more and I was personally very disappointed we let Nydam go and so soon after coming back from a terrible injury. This was all just poor coaching and management. Or mismanagement.
Edwards and Bishop I think only wanted out after Cook became obvious with his plans. And elders might have been kept on within the squad with not so much playing time, more of a coaching transition and work culture. While understandably struggling at the end of their careers play wise, Chambers and Skuse could have never been pointed out for lack of effort or work put in. With the right management that could have been put in good use while assembling a new squad.
Talking on the outside of course all this God only knows what was really going on inside the club at such a turbulent time... |
In short - Paul Cook came into ITFC with the mindset of a 'Football Manager' player. | |
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| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 09:01 - Dec 16 with 1844 views | Guthrum |
| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:45 - Dec 16 by SomethingBlue |
A good point and that's why we will probably see more of a head coach come in now. |
Might be better to have a Head Coach who concentrates on coaching, rather than a Manager as an overall leader who left the technical coaching aspect to subordinates, perhaps no longer working with him. | |
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| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 09:04 - Dec 16 with 1797 views | gordon |
| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:46 - Dec 16 by wkj |
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. When I said gungho, I meant in relation to what you're saying with your post.
Doz, Bishop, Edwards and Downes
I doubt Cook had much choice here to be honest, all four were likely wanting out.
Skuse, Sears, Chambers, Judge
All four of our elders are struggling in L2 - I think these were justified releases
Lankester, Ward, Pzybek, Wright
Never really cut the mustard for me
Drinan, Wilson, Folami, Nydam, Hawkins, Cornell
This is the interesting group:
Drinan - Poor conversion last season, but really good at dragging players around in deep positions. I am not just saying this as he's done well at Orient, but I have consistently believed we let go too soon.
Wilson - Player of the season, we never should have let go without having a clear replacement in first.
Foami and Nydam - I thought they were both still in development, I may be wrong but it felt odd seeing those two booted out.
Hawkins - Poor season last year, but we might have done well to work with him a little longer.
Cornell - Hindsight is wonderful, but he was more the adequate backup. Clearly Cook wanted a better goalie, but I think that is his biggest balls-up area. Hladky was rubbish, Holy was sent on loan and did well, Walton could be up there as one of the players of the season so far - which is saying something about how over worked he is.
(Breathes in, post almost done)
In short though, Cook got rid of players before he got them in - and that is stupid management of the highest degree. This is why we have a bloated attack and a paper-thin defence - they worked from the front to the back and ran out of time. |
With Doz, Bishop, Edwards and Downes, surely the reason they wanted out was because of the endless mismanagement and upheaval at the club - and the first few months of Cook's reign were completely in keeping with that - anyone with any sense would've wanted out after that season under Lambert / Cook.
Also, Skuse and Chambers were potentially really good coaches, and the club should've supported their transition to coaching - instead we got in a bunch of chancers who were gone a few months later. [Post edited 16 Dec 2021 9:06]
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| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 09:05 - Dec 16 with 1788 views | wkj |
| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 09:04 - Dec 16 by gordon |
With Doz, Bishop, Edwards and Downes, surely the reason they wanted out was because of the endless mismanagement and upheaval at the club - and the first few months of Cook's reign were completely in keeping with that - anyone with any sense would've wanted out after that season under Lambert / Cook.
Also, Skuse and Chambers were potentially really good coaches, and the club should've supported their transition to coaching - instead we got in a bunch of chancers who were gone a few months later. [Post edited 16 Dec 2021 9:06]
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If I am not mistaken, I think Bishop and Downes were considering their future long before Cook was on the radar. | |
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| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 09:07 - Dec 16 with 1760 views | gordon |
| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 09:05 - Dec 16 by wkj |
If I am not mistaken, I think Bishop and Downes were considering their future long before Cook was on the radar. |
I think we were all considering our futures under Lambert! | | | |
| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 09:14 - Dec 16 with 1700 views | Stewart27 |
| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 08:14 - Dec 16 by FightingEssex |
Decent? Aside from Edmondson, Burns and Bonne (a loan) who did we sign that's really shown anything decent at all? Walton is okay, Celina has had flashes, Aluko has done okay, Chaplin has had moments but the likes of Hladky, Penny, Harper, Evans, Piggott, Fraser, Barry (remember him), Carroll, Burgess, Coulson, Edwards and Morsy... they have been broadly absolutely atrocious for us. Championship side in waiting? I bet we'd be 12th in the league below with these lot. I also stand by the fact we didn't upgrade, our backline with Holy, Ward, Chambers, Woolfie, Wilson, Kenlock and co was much more solid than what we have now, as proven by how much better they did, we didn't upgrade on Downes, Dozzell and Bishop at all, so we lost a core of decent midfielders and replace it with some of the worse we have ever seen.
The bomb squad was a myth that Cook created and people bought because it was much easier to believe that than the fact Cook without Richardson was not going to deliver here. |
I agree with most of that apart from our defence from last season.
Individually the defenders brought in a far better quality than Chambers, Wilson and Kenlock and Ward. They just haven’t been coached as a team and this is where our frailties lie.
When we were drawing 0-0 with Northampton and the mighty MK Dons, we were playing such a passive style of football that didn’t allow for as many risks. Therefore we were arguably better coached defensively under Lambert. Words I never thought I’d say this year. | | | |
| Our Club must never again give a manager such free reign to tear the team up on 09:16 - Dec 16 with 1667 views | ArnieM |
Who out of Lamberts squad would you have kept ? |  |
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