| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour 11:49 - Jan 19 with 6319 views | GlasgowBlue |
Johnson is a gonner . |  |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 12:45 - Jan 19 with 1906 views | Darth_Koont |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 12:38 - Jan 19 by Zx1988 |
It's a tricky one with the voting record etc.,
Having been part of the 2019 intake and keen to make a name for himself, no doubt he'll have voted as he has been told to and, no doubt, he'll be doing his best to follow the Labour whip for the time being as well. He certainly wouldn't want to rub anyone up the wrong way and face deselection when the next GE comes around.
And therein lies the problem - most inexperienced MPs are more concerned with staying onside with their leadership than following their own convictions, and will therefore vote whichever way they're told to vote. |
His voting records and also that he put himself forward as a Conservative candidate in the first place.
If he believed that the Conservatives and Johnson as leader were the right way forward then he’s a fool or a zealot. The only difference now is that Johnson was caught being Johnson.
I’m certainly no fan of Johnson (he’s a new low-water mark) but this standard of unprincipled politician and an “opposition” like Starmer’s Labour are just as intrinsically part of the problem. |  |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 12:55 - Jan 19 with 1868 views | tractordownsouth |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 12:01 - Jan 19 by Darth_Koont |
Gmpf. Seems about right. |
I thought you’d be in favour, given that he’s voted with the Tory whip roughly the same amount of times as Jeremy Corbyn. |  |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 13:00 - Jan 19 with 1844 views | GavTWTD |
Why doesn't this automatically trigger a by-election? It should, shirley?
It was good theatre albeit incredibly brief, but there will be a lot of his locals that will be annoyed by what he's done. If I voted for my local MP and he switched sides, I'd be fuming. |  |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 13:03 - Jan 19 with 1823 views | GlasgowBlue |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 12:55 - Jan 19 by tractordownsouth |
I thought you’d be in favour, given that he’s voted with the Tory whip roughly the same amount of times as Jeremy Corbyn. |
Arf! | |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 13:07 - Jan 19 with 1799 views | giant_stow |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 12:55 - Jan 19 by tractordownsouth |
I thought you’d be in favour, given that he’s voted with the Tory whip roughly the same amount of times as Jeremy Corbyn. |
ouch, go easy! |  |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 13:09 - Jan 19 with 1792 views | Darth_Koont |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 12:55 - Jan 19 by tractordownsouth |
I thought you’d be in favour, given that he’s voted with the Tory whip roughly the same amount of times as Jeremy Corbyn. |
Yeah, I’m sure Corbyn was against much of New Labour’s platform because it wasn’t Tory enough.
You don’t think this move smells more than a bit off? | |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 13:14 - Jan 19 with 1765 views | tractordownsouth |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 13:09 - Jan 19 by Darth_Koont |
Yeah, I’m sure Corbyn was against much of New Labour’s platform because it wasn’t Tory enough.
You don’t think this move smells more than a bit off? |
I don’t agree with his voting record but if he has genuinely changed his views and votes with the Labour whip from now on, I don’t see how it’s a problem. Michael Gove campaigned for Michael Foot to be PM in 1983, Liz Truss was once a Lib Dem. Granted this seems to be a much quicker change of heart, but it’s not beyond the realms of possibility. After all, winning over people who backed the Tories in 2019 is the only way Labour can realistically win. | |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 13:16 - Jan 19 with 1758 views | tractordownsouth |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 13:00 - Jan 19 by GavTWTD |
Why doesn't this automatically trigger a by-election? It should, shirley?
It was good theatre albeit incredibly brief, but there will be a lot of his locals that will be annoyed by what he's done. If I voted for my local MP and he switched sides, I'd be fuming. |
One of the 2019 intake (who won his seat off Sarah Wollaston after she defected to the Lib Dems and didn’t call a by-election) tried to put a Bill forward in parliament requiring MPs to hold a vote when they defect, but not sure if it’s been passed yet. I’d agree with it personally too, but the Tories would be stupid to call for a by-election because in the current conditions they’d definitely lose. [Post edited 19 Jan 2022 13:17]
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 13:18 - Jan 19 with 1747 views | FightingEssex |
It’s amazing how these hard right capitalists can become socialists over night if it suits the career development better. Just looking after his own backside for the next election. Exactly what is wrong with politics. |  |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 13:20 - Jan 19 with 1739 views | HARRY10 |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 13:14 - Jan 19 by tractordownsouth |
I don’t agree with his voting record but if he has genuinely changed his views and votes with the Labour whip from now on, I don’t see how it’s a problem. Michael Gove campaigned for Michael Foot to be PM in 1983, Liz Truss was once a Lib Dem. Granted this seems to be a much quicker change of heart, but it’s not beyond the realms of possibility. After all, winning over people who backed the Tories in 2019 is the only way Labour can realistically win. |
Unless the current opinion polls hold, or fall away slightly - they give Labour a thumping majority
Whilst I have a feeling of unease about the defection, as it presumes the electorate of Bury voted for the candidate personally rather than his party - I also have the same unease about 300 people or so being able to elect the next Prime Minister without another GE. |  | | |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 13:22 - Jan 19 with 1733 views | Darth_Koont |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 13:14 - Jan 19 by tractordownsouth |
I don’t agree with his voting record but if he has genuinely changed his views and votes with the Labour whip from now on, I don’t see how it’s a problem. Michael Gove campaigned for Michael Foot to be PM in 1983, Liz Truss was once a Lib Dem. Granted this seems to be a much quicker change of heart, but it’s not beyond the realms of possibility. After all, winning over people who backed the Tories in 2019 is the only way Labour can realistically win. |
He put himself forward as a Conservative candidate in 2019 with Johnson as PM and a decade of chaotic “government” already behind them. He knew what he was doing.
When is the penny going to drop that this self-serving lack of standards with all the lies, deceit and hypocrisy that involves, is THE problem? Johnson is just a symptom of the disease. | |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 13:27 - Jan 19 with 1720 views | Guthrum |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 13:00 - Jan 19 by GavTWTD |
Why doesn't this automatically trigger a by-election? It should, shirley?
It was good theatre albeit incredibly brief, but there will be a lot of his locals that will be annoyed by what he's done. If I voted for my local MP and he switched sides, I'd be fuming. |
No, because you are voting for the individual to represent you, not the party they belong to. At least, that's how it was designed and is supposed to work.
Rigid political parties (who notionally all stand for the same things on most issues) are a fairly modern construct. |  |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 13:48 - Jan 19 with 1655 views | Steve_M |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 12:34 - Jan 19 by Darth_Koont |
Certainly one of the loudest and I don’t really pay much attention to her.
But she’s right here. Going from a Conservative MP given their record to a Labour MP is problematic. And if people don’t see that, that in itself shows how used we are to the UK’s enormous democratic deficit. |
When the objective is to make voters who voted for Johnson in 2019 vote for Labour in the next General Election that level of purity is counter-productive. |  |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 13:57 - Jan 19 with 1626 views | Darth_Koont |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 13:48 - Jan 19 by Steve_M |
When the objective is to make voters who voted for Johnson in 2019 vote for Labour in the next General Election that level of purity is counter-productive. |
When the objective is to underscore a political point about honesty, integrity and a lack of principles then this sort of hypocrisy is ultimately self-defeating.
And this blind move right to chase voters hasn’t served the country well at all. New Labour lost Scotland because of it, and arguably the red wall by not addressing issues when they had the chance to demonstrate a difference.
At some point, you’ve got to say enough is enough and pull the other way. Or lose the left and the younger vote too.
Depends if you want to win power and build a better Britain or whether you want to serve your own interests. That’s pretty much the real driver nowadays. That’s why Wakeford felt like one of them already. | |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 14:25 - Jan 19 with 1583 views | Herbivore |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 13:18 - Jan 19 by FightingEssex |
It’s amazing how these hard right capitalists can become socialists over night if it suits the career development better. Just looking after his own backside for the next election. Exactly what is wrong with politics. |
Labour aren't a socialist party. They haven't been a socialist party for a very long time. |  |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 16:46 - Jan 19 with 1502 views | bluelagos |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 13:00 - Jan 19 by GavTWTD |
Why doesn't this automatically trigger a by-election? It should, shirley?
It was good theatre albeit incredibly brief, but there will be a lot of his locals that will be annoyed by what he's done. If I voted for my local MP and he switched sides, I'd be fuming. |
It doesn't no. But agree it should. By crossing from Lab to Tory or vice-versa an MP completely disenfranchises everyone who voted for them.
I could just about stomach an MP sitting as an Independent but to join your rivals doesn't sit well with me. If he had any integrity he'd resign and resit as a Labour candidate. Don't see it happening. |  |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 17:04 - Jan 19 with 1463 views | Darth_Koont |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 16:46 - Jan 19 by bluelagos |
It doesn't no. But agree it should. By crossing from Lab to Tory or vice-versa an MP completely disenfranchises everyone who voted for them.
I could just about stomach an MP sitting as an Independent but to join your rivals doesn't sit well with me. If he had any integrity he'd resign and resit as a Labour candidate. Don't see it happening. |
Well said. The double standards are nauseating.
He should have refused the whip and stood as an independent. The damage had already been done to Johnson before today but this taints Labour now.
Having said that, if the message to his own PLP was that their self-serving careerism and lack of even nominally centrist values will be embraced and rewarded, then Starmer’s position will be stronger as a result. And it’s certainly sending up a massive Tw@t Signal to the Change UK lot to come back. | |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 17:35 - Jan 19 with 1424 views | Pinewoodblue |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 17:04 - Jan 19 by Darth_Koont |
Well said. The double standards are nauseating.
He should have refused the whip and stood as an independent. The damage had already been done to Johnson before today but this taints Labour now.
Having said that, if the message to his own PLP was that their self-serving careerism and lack of even nominally centrist values will be embraced and rewarded, then Starmer’s position will be stronger as a result. And it’s certainly sending up a massive Tw@t Signal to the Change UK lot to come back. |
Apparently he was elected as a moderate, centrist MP, and remains one but has just changed the colour of his rosette.
Does this mean that he sees Kabour as standing for all the principles he was elected on?
A lot of Labour members are not going to be happy with that.
Another Starmer error for me, he should have insisted he resigned his seat and stood as a Labour candidate in a by election, assuming of course that the local constituency party want him as their candidate. |  |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 17:36 - Jan 19 with 1424 views | J2BLUE |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 17:35 - Jan 19 by Pinewoodblue |
Apparently he was elected as a moderate, centrist MP, and remains one but has just changed the colour of his rosette.
Does this mean that he sees Kabour as standing for all the principles he was elected on?
A lot of Labour members are not going to be happy with that.
Another Starmer error for me, he should have insisted he resigned his seat and stood as a Labour candidate in a by election, assuming of course that the local constituency party want him as their candidate. |
And if he had lost? Starmer would look stupid. Why would he insist on taking an unnecessary risk?
FWIW I think there absolutely should be a by-election. |  |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 17:40 - Jan 19 with 1414 views | bluelagos |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 17:36 - Jan 19 by J2BLUE |
And if he had lost? Starmer would look stupid. Why would he insist on taking an unnecessary risk?
FWIW I think there absolutely should be a by-election. |
Given the the size of the majority, whether he wins or loses is neither here nor there. But if Starmer has any claims to be a democrat he absolutely would insist on a by-election.
If he loses, well then that's the wishes of the people of Bury South. | |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 17:49 - Jan 19 with 1392 views | Darth_Koont |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 17:35 - Jan 19 by Pinewoodblue |
Apparently he was elected as a moderate, centrist MP, and remains one but has just changed the colour of his rosette.
Does this mean that he sees Kabour as standing for all the principles he was elected on?
A lot of Labour members are not going to be happy with that.
Another Starmer error for me, he should have insisted he resigned his seat and stood as a Labour candidate in a by election, assuming of course that the local constituency party want him as their candidate. |
Do any centrists want to own his documented voting record as well as his public and private statements? Maybe. But just shows how far to the right the UK centre is nowadays. | |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 17:59 - Jan 19 with 1351 views | Radlett_blue |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 12:34 - Jan 19 by Darth_Koont |
Certainly one of the loudest and I don’t really pay much attention to her.
But she’s right here. Going from a Conservative MP given their record to a Labour MP is problematic. And if people don’t see that, that in itself shows how used we are to the UK’s enormous democratic deficit. |
Many MPs in the past have made cosmetic party changes or stood as "independents" after internal disputes. Crossing between Labour & Conservative was rare, although I remember former Labour cabinet minister Reg Prentice switching to the Tories in 1977 in protest at left wingers taking over his local party.
Alan Howarth switched from Conservative to Labour in 1995 & Labour found him a safe seat.
Shaun Woodward has been mentioned before.
Robert Jackson moved from Conservative to Labour in 2005, 3 months before a general election in which he did not stand.
Quentin Davies did the same in 2007.
This sort of thing seems to be becoming more common & I think it's a sign of how unprincipled many modern politicians are. |  |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 18:01 - Jan 19 with 1349 views | HARRY10 |
The people of Bury South will not get a say in their MP swapping sides
The country will not get a say in the Tory party swapping PMs | | | |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 18:54 - Jan 19 with 1282 views | Pinewoodblue |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 17:49 - Jan 19 by Darth_Koont |
Do any centrists want to own his documented voting record as well as his public and private statements? Maybe. But just shows how far to the right the UK centre is nowadays. |
By accepting him into the Labour party you have to assume the leadership accept him. | |
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| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 18:57 - Jan 19 with 1283 views | Trequartista |
| 2019 Tory MP defects to Labour on 13:27 - Jan 19 by Guthrum |
No, because you are voting for the individual to represent you, not the party they belong to. At least, that's how it was designed and is supposed to work.
Rigid political parties (who notionally all stand for the same things on most issues) are a fairly modern construct. |
Surely you are voting for both party and individual, as both are on the voting slip?
I would imagine that in the real world people vote in order of
1) party
2) party leader
3) individual candidate. [Post edited 19 Jan 2022 18:57]
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