| Can you actually buy ethical milk 15:38 - Feb 16 with 6428 views | gtsb1966 |
I don't want milk substitutes but the proper stuff. I found this quite abhorrent. The removal of the calves is horrible. I would be grateful if someone could tell me where I can buy the stuff. Thanks. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-60394156 |  | | |  |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:01 - Feb 16 with 824 views | eireblue |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 17:44 - Feb 16 by WeWereZombies |
And a link to this seventy five per cent less land use? Please forgive my scepticism. |
Every one should have a sceptical approach.
Inquiring and sceptical minds are good things to have
There are loads of studies, you could look at the UN report on climate change, and the data behind their recommendation on changing diets, you could look at the Harvard study on how the UK could become food secure on a plant based diet, that has useful stats. You can find Oxford University studies published in the Journal of Science
Those are quite easy to find, as well as many others on analysis of land, energy, calories and protein produced.
But for a quick hit starting point.
https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets |  | | |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:01 - Feb 16 with 821 views | WeWereZombies |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 17:53 - Feb 16 by jeera |
Non-interesting fact.
I didn't like walnuts when I was young but now I do. |
Here is another passage from 'Spoon Fed':
'...headlines, in 2019, announced that eating walnuts daily protects against cancer and colitis. In fact, the scientific paper merely described that mice who had been given chemicals to mimic human disease showed a slight improvement...The study was small and appeared in a modest but genuine nutrition journal, but the sponsors of the study - the California Walnut Commission - must have been delighted...' (page 4) |  |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:05 - Feb 16 with 802 views | Keno |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 15:58 - Feb 16 by leitrimblue |
Think it's still 2 dates before milking. Though if yer keep the wine flowing on the first date who knows |
Is that how you met Mrs Letty? |  |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:06 - Feb 16 with 804 views | bluelagos |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 17:53 - Feb 16 by WeWereZombies |
It can turn all sorts of ideas on their head. I read in New Scientist some years back that Australian native people have a language that bears no relation to any other and does not conform to Chomsky's idea of a universal grammar:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_grammar
Maori development is incredible too, never entered the Iron Age but fashioned wood and greenstone weapons that allowed them to hold their own against the British Empire for a while.
Then there is Madagascar, not populated until seventeen hundred years ago and then, despite being only separated from Africa by the Mozambique Channel, mainly from Asia. |
I once made an illegal entry into Mozambique, as you do :-)
A road I was legally on in Malawi was bordered by Mozambique and I stopped to buy some water/grub.
Fair to say they were a bit more relaxed than some other borders I've crossed. Ex-Portuguese colony - surrounded by British empire just 100 years ago. Ridiculous now but very recent in the scheme of things. |  |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:06 - Feb 16 with 803 views | WeWereZombies |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:01 - Feb 16 by eireblue |
Every one should have a sceptical approach.
Inquiring and sceptical minds are good things to have
There are loads of studies, you could look at the UN report on climate change, and the data behind their recommendation on changing diets, you could look at the Harvard study on how the UK could become food secure on a plant based diet, that has useful stats. You can find Oxford University studies published in the Journal of Science
Those are quite easy to find, as well as many others on analysis of land, energy, calories and protein produced.
But for a quick hit starting point.
https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets |
So the next question is, over what time scale can domesticated livestock be eliminated, assuming you do not want to go for a 'foot and mouth epidemic' bonfire of the animals? | |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:10 - Feb 16 with 792 views | jeera |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:01 - Feb 16 by WeWereZombies |
Here is another passage from 'Spoon Fed':
'...headlines, in 2019, announced that eating walnuts daily protects against cancer and colitis. In fact, the scientific paper merely described that mice who had been given chemicals to mimic human disease showed a slight improvement...The study was small and appeared in a modest but genuine nutrition journal, but the sponsors of the study - the California Walnut Commission - must have been delighted...' (page 4) |
Then did it specify if the walnuts were coated in chocolate and some weird tasting fondant, in which case Nestle might have something to say about it? |  |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:10 - Feb 16 with 795 views | WeWereZombies |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:06 - Feb 16 by bluelagos |
I once made an illegal entry into Mozambique, as you do :-)
A road I was legally on in Malawi was bordered by Mozambique and I stopped to buy some water/grub.
Fair to say they were a bit more relaxed than some other borders I've crossed. Ex-Portuguese colony - surrounded by British empire just 100 years ago. Ridiculous now but very recent in the scheme of things. |
I've been across a border point from El Salvador to Honduras that you can't travel through in the opposite direction, once into Honduras we were directed to a police post where we showed our passports but I don't think they knew what they were and were given the proverbial shrug and 'fair enough, you can get back on the bus.' | |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:12 - Feb 16 with 794 views | eireblue |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:06 - Feb 16 by WeWereZombies |
So the next question is, over what time scale can domesticated livestock be eliminated, assuming you do not want to go for a 'foot and mouth epidemic' bonfire of the animals? |
Just to check, you are now accepting that there is scientific evidence that a plant-based diet is sustainable, uses much less land, and is better for the climate? | | | |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:13 - Feb 16 with 790 views | WeWereZombies |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:12 - Feb 16 by eireblue |
Just to check, you are now accepting that there is scientific evidence that a plant-based diet is sustainable, uses much less land, and is better for the climate? |
Not necessarily. | |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:31 - Feb 16 with 769 views | eireblue |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:13 - Feb 16 by WeWereZombies |
Not necessarily. |
Well, there’s your answer.
Even a person with a sceptical and inquiring mind such as yourself, is presented with the evidence that a plant based diet is the best way to go, you then don’t go and do the next most logical thing, which is read it, digest it and then if you can’t dispute it with better science and evidence, become a vegan.
What you have done is ask a question about a non-existent scenario.
When more people follow that path in the paragraph above, and if that happens at a rate of growth, that is faster than typical natural life time of farmed animals, then there maybe an issue worth considering.
But currently the amount of vegans is still under 10%.
It tends to be, in a social group, when an idea gets above 10% adoption, that the idea can start to be more rapidly adopted.
It is very easy not to drink milk.
As more people stop drinking milk, there will be less farmed cows.
But, once you have considered some of the evidence, hopefully you will make a very easy decision. [Post edited 16 Feb 2022 18:33]
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:34 - Feb 16 with 765 views | leitrimblue |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:06 - Feb 16 by WeWereZombies |
So the next question is, over what time scale can domesticated livestock be eliminated, assuming you do not want to go for a 'foot and mouth epidemic' bonfire of the animals? |
Think this is a really important question. I find the dynamics around this and things like re-wilding very interesting. I imagine a full cull/feast of all domesticated livestock on day one of a non meat world is the best way to go. Though may sound a tad extreme. Guess you would also need to immediately arrange for the upkeep of all that land usually kept under control by cattle etc |  | | |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:45 - Feb 16 with 750 views | monytowbray |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 16:08 - Feb 16 by WeWereZombies |
As the animal rights spokesperson says at the end of the clip, we should be paying more for our milk. If we can find and afford milk from a decent local dairy farm.
Also, think twice before switching to substitutes for milk. This is from 'Spoon Fed' by Prof. Tim Spector, pages 160/61 of the 2022 Vintage edition:
'Clever marketing campaigns, such as the 2019 Oatly advert 'It's like milk, but made for humans', are persuading customers into following dairy-free diets, with vegan milk sales growing by 30 per cent over the past three years. The cosy relationship between the 'free-from' baby-milk industry and paedriatric doctors is making it worse. Between 2006 and 2016, prescriptions of specialist milks for infants with cow's milk allergy increased by 500 percent, despite no evidence showing any increase in real milk allergy. This over-diagnosis of cow's milk allergy is potentially harmful to mothers and babies, and confuses women on the clear health benefits associated with breastfeeding where allergy is non-existent.' |
Babies should drink human breast milk.
Sounds like a capitalism problem to me. |  |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:48 - Feb 16 with 749 views | monytowbray |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 16:23 - Feb 16 by WeWereZombies |
And what happens to the land, the cows and the agricultural workers as the opportunity for balanced mixed farming and ecologically beneficial dairy practices is missed should you manage to railroad everyone into prairie fields of monoculture to satisfy demand for an innovation that not every one wants and prevents us from returning to a way of life that worked well for centuries? |
Cool logic. Let’s bring back slavery and the SERF/Landowner/Lord class system whilst we’re there. | |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:53 - Feb 16 with 746 views | buoyant |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 15:59 - Feb 16 by J2BLUE |
You're welcome |
If you've not already, try the Oatly full fat or even barista.
Both are really good |  |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 19:05 - Feb 16 with 731 views | WeWereZombies |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:31 - Feb 16 by eireblue |
Well, there’s your answer.
Even a person with a sceptical and inquiring mind such as yourself, is presented with the evidence that a plant based diet is the best way to go, you then don’t go and do the next most logical thing, which is read it, digest it and then if you can’t dispute it with better science and evidence, become a vegan.
What you have done is ask a question about a non-existent scenario.
When more people follow that path in the paragraph above, and if that happens at a rate of growth, that is faster than typical natural life time of farmed animals, then there maybe an issue worth considering.
But currently the amount of vegans is still under 10%.
It tends to be, in a social group, when an idea gets above 10% adoption, that the idea can start to be more rapidly adopted.
It is very easy not to drink milk.
As more people stop drinking milk, there will be less farmed cows.
But, once you have considered some of the evidence, hopefully you will make a very easy decision. [Post edited 16 Feb 2022 18:33]
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Firstly, I am deeply affronted that my 'Not necessarily' was not seen for the MaySixth tribute that it was...OK, it was a bit too wordy to be a contribution from that particular poster, but there again, there has been an increase in verbosity in that direction of late.
Seriously, my objections to the 'ourworldindata' link are more nuanced, I worry that simply extrapolating current data to an imagined future scenario is that scientific. Even if it is, what unintended consequences lie in wait.
Beyond this concern about the application of statistics ante events I suspect that the degree of coercion needed to get all farmers and all consumers, or even sufficient farmers and consumers to tip the remainder into compliance, would entail breaking a number of other United Nations guidelines on respect for human rights. And, as I have indicated, would bring in big pharma, big agriculture and the banking mechanisms behind them to an unacceptable degree leaving the workers at the sharp end of bring about change with a reduced capacity for agency on their own terms, especially when it came to redressing the imbalance in nature that so much of farming has been and continues to be driven into.
So, in deference to Dr. Jane Goodall's recent pronouncements, I suggest that we act local because the global picture is too depressing to contemplate - at least in the thorny issue of our food shopping. Which means finding a dairy as close to home (unfortunately there is not one on the island) where I will continue to buy cow's milk, and to increase my butter consumption over other spreads and to buy more cheese that has travelled fewer miles (although I might travel more miles myself getting it from Lidl, who are worthy of a little commendation for their sourcing of Highland produce in their Inverness supermarket and I only go there when I have another reason to go to Inverness, and you can buy cheese a good few weeks before you use it.)
Maybe I should start a creamery myself, store the milk in churns, dole it out to anyone who turns up with a jug or two...ach, my back is beginning to ache just thinking about it. | |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 19:11 - Feb 16 with 718 views | monytowbray |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 19:05 - Feb 16 by WeWereZombies |
Firstly, I am deeply affronted that my 'Not necessarily' was not seen for the MaySixth tribute that it was...OK, it was a bit too wordy to be a contribution from that particular poster, but there again, there has been an increase in verbosity in that direction of late.
Seriously, my objections to the 'ourworldindata' link are more nuanced, I worry that simply extrapolating current data to an imagined future scenario is that scientific. Even if it is, what unintended consequences lie in wait.
Beyond this concern about the application of statistics ante events I suspect that the degree of coercion needed to get all farmers and all consumers, or even sufficient farmers and consumers to tip the remainder into compliance, would entail breaking a number of other United Nations guidelines on respect for human rights. And, as I have indicated, would bring in big pharma, big agriculture and the banking mechanisms behind them to an unacceptable degree leaving the workers at the sharp end of bring about change with a reduced capacity for agency on their own terms, especially when it came to redressing the imbalance in nature that so much of farming has been and continues to be driven into.
So, in deference to Dr. Jane Goodall's recent pronouncements, I suggest that we act local because the global picture is too depressing to contemplate - at least in the thorny issue of our food shopping. Which means finding a dairy as close to home (unfortunately there is not one on the island) where I will continue to buy cow's milk, and to increase my butter consumption over other spreads and to buy more cheese that has travelled fewer miles (although I might travel more miles myself getting it from Lidl, who are worthy of a little commendation for their sourcing of Highland produce in their Inverness supermarket and I only go there when I have another reason to go to Inverness, and you can buy cheese a good few weeks before you use it.)
Maybe I should start a creamery myself, store the milk in churns, dole it out to anyone who turns up with a jug or two...ach, my back is beginning to ache just thinking about it. |
I make my own oat milk sometimes. It’s hard to get it right for hot drinks though. | |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 19:16 - Feb 16 with 722 views | BlueNote |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 15:59 - Feb 16 by J2BLUE |
You're welcome |
Drinking oat milk is better for you, the animals and the environment, but Alpro is owned by Danone, which is not an ethical company. Out of the mainstream brands, Oatly is far more ethical, but more expensive. You would hope the price of plant milks will reduce as they become more popular. |  | | |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 19:19 - Feb 16 with 720 views | WeWereZombies |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 18:48 - Feb 16 by monytowbray |
Cool logic. Let’s bring back slavery and the SERF/Landowner/Lord class system whilst we’re there. |
Yes, of course looking at ways that traditional farming was more balanced and respectful of nature involves the reintroduction of slavery...
And slavery was never underpinned by global transport and sophisticated insurance plans, it was all old skool triremes and open air markets? | |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 19:25 - Feb 16 with 714 views | WeWereZombies |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 19:16 - Feb 16 by BlueNote |
Drinking oat milk is better for you, the animals and the environment, but Alpro is owned by Danone, which is not an ethical company. Out of the mainstream brands, Oatly is far more ethical, but more expensive. You would hope the price of plant milks will reduce as they become more popular. |
Or you could forget corporate Oatly and shop local:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-58102252 | |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 19:56 - Feb 16 with 701 views | chicoazul |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 17:00 - Feb 16 by XYZ |
There's a large cheese-shaped elephant in this room. |
I don’t know if dairy is inherently cruel the way eating animals is. It probably is though.
I recently decided that morally and ethically a vegan diet is absolutely the right thing to do. I just don’t want to do it. This makes me a bad person. I am comfortable with that. |  |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 20:44 - Feb 16 with 672 views | monytowbray |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 19:19 - Feb 16 by WeWereZombies |
Yes, of course looking at ways that traditional farming was more balanced and respectful of nature involves the reintroduction of slavery...
And slavery was never underpinned by global transport and sophisticated insurance plans, it was all old skool triremes and open air markets? |
You proved my point with the second part though! ;)
The world changes. | |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 20:46 - Feb 16 with 674 views | eireblue |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 19:05 - Feb 16 by WeWereZombies |
Firstly, I am deeply affronted that my 'Not necessarily' was not seen for the MaySixth tribute that it was...OK, it was a bit too wordy to be a contribution from that particular poster, but there again, there has been an increase in verbosity in that direction of late.
Seriously, my objections to the 'ourworldindata' link are more nuanced, I worry that simply extrapolating current data to an imagined future scenario is that scientific. Even if it is, what unintended consequences lie in wait.
Beyond this concern about the application of statistics ante events I suspect that the degree of coercion needed to get all farmers and all consumers, or even sufficient farmers and consumers to tip the remainder into compliance, would entail breaking a number of other United Nations guidelines on respect for human rights. And, as I have indicated, would bring in big pharma, big agriculture and the banking mechanisms behind them to an unacceptable degree leaving the workers at the sharp end of bring about change with a reduced capacity for agency on their own terms, especially when it came to redressing the imbalance in nature that so much of farming has been and continues to be driven into.
So, in deference to Dr. Jane Goodall's recent pronouncements, I suggest that we act local because the global picture is too depressing to contemplate - at least in the thorny issue of our food shopping. Which means finding a dairy as close to home (unfortunately there is not one on the island) where I will continue to buy cow's milk, and to increase my butter consumption over other spreads and to buy more cheese that has travelled fewer miles (although I might travel more miles myself getting it from Lidl, who are worthy of a little commendation for their sourcing of Highland produce in their Inverness supermarket and I only go there when I have another reason to go to Inverness, and you can buy cheese a good few weeks before you use it.)
Maybe I should start a creamery myself, store the milk in churns, dole it out to anyone who turns up with a jug or two...ach, my back is beginning to ache just thinking about it. |
Yea, didn’t spot that reference.
Now, I appreciate the effort you have put in, so far.
But, local doesn’t work for the world. People in cities, can’t do local.
As I said there are many different scientific things you could read, that also have nuance, including, studying things like soil health (Hi Ryorry), as part of being food secure.
Your rationale, also includes extrapolations, that innovation won’t happen, and that “Big” companies will dominate.
Humans can be innovative and disruptive.
You asked me to provide data. I have. To what end?
Did you just want to tell people that you are okay on your island. And defer to Dr Jane Goodalll, since it matches your circumstances.
Or as a sceptical person, will you look into other studies, and think about what is the best way that humans can reduce harm to the planet, and how easy it can be to personally act.? | | | |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 20:47 - Feb 16 with 672 views | eireblue |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 19:56 - Feb 16 by chicoazul |
I don’t know if dairy is inherently cruel the way eating animals is. It probably is though.
I recently decided that morally and ethically a vegan diet is absolutely the right thing to do. I just don’t want to do it. This makes me a bad person. I am comfortable with that. |
Lazy as well, don’t forget that. | | | |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 20:48 - Feb 16 with 672 views | WeWereZombies |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 20:44 - Feb 16 by monytowbray |
You proved my point with the second part though! ;)
The world changes. |
I think you have a very low bar set for proof, so no doubt you can give me a proof that we can never set foot in the same river twice... | |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 21:06 - Feb 16 with 658 views | WeWereZombies |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 20:46 - Feb 16 by eireblue |
Yea, didn’t spot that reference.
Now, I appreciate the effort you have put in, so far.
But, local doesn’t work for the world. People in cities, can’t do local.
As I said there are many different scientific things you could read, that also have nuance, including, studying things like soil health (Hi Ryorry), as part of being food secure.
Your rationale, also includes extrapolations, that innovation won’t happen, and that “Big” companies will dominate.
Humans can be innovative and disruptive.
You asked me to provide data. I have. To what end?
Did you just want to tell people that you are okay on your island. And defer to Dr Jane Goodalll, since it matches your circumstances.
Or as a sceptical person, will you look into other studies, and think about what is the best way that humans can reduce harm to the planet, and how easy it can be to personally act.? |
You have provided data, that is true. But I cannot see that data, which is a projection, actually coming about with, as you state later, disruption. My general feeling about disruption is that it is unhelpful, better work with nature than against it. And people in cities can buy local, and grow their own, which is the gradual change I would hope to see...the pandemic should have taught us a bit about socially distancing ourselves to stay safe, it is probably not the last pandemic so better to have more green space in cities to ride out the next one more comfortably than we have COVID-19 (which Dr. Jane Goodall asserts arose from having animals in too close proximity to humans at time of slaughter and for food preparation, another example she gives is how when a population is faced with food shortages they resort to bush meat - leaving a race exposed to the perils of war and climate driven migration increases the incidence of a particular landscape being ravaged by a sudden influx, as happened in Gombe. And that was repaired by local action.)
Actually things are far from okay on Skye, the relentless rain this autumn and winter feels like that projection of the clouds closing in and turning Earth into a Venus like hothouse planet. But the crofters are happy, they got the best prices ever for sheep this year, demand is higher than ever. So I have no easy task pushing the 'English Pastoral' (James Rebanks https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/290/290329/english-pastoral/9780141982571.html#: ) vision but I have got a local farmer to borrow it of me, still I haven't given myself an easy task and adding in a vegan slant to things would really not help, not at all.
So balance is my keyword, and it is a self adjusting mechanism rather than a command position, those always fail at some point. | |
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