| Can you actually buy ethical milk 15:38 - Feb 16 with 6427 views | gtsb1966 |
I don't want milk substitutes but the proper stuff. I found this quite abhorrent. The removal of the calves is horrible. I would be grateful if someone could tell me where I can buy the stuff. Thanks. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-60394156 |  | | |  |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 13:04 - Feb 17 with 1296 views | eireblue |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 12:50 - Feb 17 by J2BLUE |
I find the hardest hitting reasoning to pick plants over animal products is the amount of water required. The amount of water to create one pound of beef is shocking. I know this is usually where people reply about almonds etc but I don't really buy those. Or avocados. |
Yea, it is also one of the reasons i am trying to reduce use of cotton and look for bamboo alternatives. Can’t remember where/when I saw it, but people had a lack of drinking water, lakes were drying up, and that was somewhat down to people using cotton as a cash crop. |  | | |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 13:15 - Feb 17 with 1279 views | eireblue |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 12:56 - Feb 17 by chicoazul |
I don’t want to doesn’t equal lazy. Dumb thinking. You’re free to think that’s laziness. It isn’t, as I’ve explained elsewhere it’s more effort to cook meat then vegan in many ways. It’s not laziness that prevents me from being vegan. Would you like to know what it is? |
Well sure, share. Lots of reasons people don’t go vegan, for instance, there is one poster that sometimes mentions their reason when posting on this topic. It is a very useful thing to consider.
It is something you could have done earlier, nobody is stopping you sharing anything you want to post.
And thanks for sharing and explaining to person that is a vegan, and also been a meat eater, that lives in a mixed household, the relative efforts of cooking said meals. | | | |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 13:23 - Feb 17 with 1257 views | jonbull88 |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 17:24 - Feb 16 by eireblue |
How do you know how much research I do, or reading I have done?
Not sure how me pointing out that in a vegan version of the world there is significantly less land required for agriculture.
You mentioned innovation. Imagine the innovation that is possible by having much more flexibility of land usage, when 75% less is required. |
The main issue I have regarding the 75% less land required to grow food. This is such a false number plucked out of the sky it is a joke. For a start not all land is suited to growing everything. For example around 40% of the uk is grassland. Secondly with the move away from fossil fuels, muck produced by animals will help keep crop yields high. Without fertiliser crop yields will plummet within a few years, which will reduce the efficiency of the land being used, meaning more land will be required. The third issue that will occur is what to do with waste crops? Not everything grown makes the grade, this currently goes through an animal. What do we do with it, go back to the old days of tipping it in land fill or out at sea? |  | | |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 13:44 - Feb 17 with 1244 views | eireblue |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 13:23 - Feb 17 by jonbull88 |
The main issue I have regarding the 75% less land required to grow food. This is such a false number plucked out of the sky it is a joke. For a start not all land is suited to growing everything. For example around 40% of the uk is grassland. Secondly with the move away from fossil fuels, muck produced by animals will help keep crop yields high. Without fertiliser crop yields will plummet within a few years, which will reduce the efficiency of the land being used, meaning more land will be required. The third issue that will occur is what to do with waste crops? Not everything grown makes the grade, this currently goes through an animal. What do we do with it, go back to the old days of tipping it in land fill or out at sea? |
Most of those questions are addressed by the studies done by Oxford and Harvard, and the UN…..and others.
The one on how the U.K. could be food secure would definitely be helpful to have a look at. It considers exactly those questions. It does in fact give two proposals based on considering these factors.
If you start to take that figure at face value, or if you don’t want to do that, people can consider that a large percentage of arable land is used to grow animal feed.
That means there is a significant amount of land available, and with that you have more flexibility and things you can consider.
For instance, some no kill farms have animals. The value in the animal is not in it’s meat, but precisely as you described, helping with soil fertility.
As an example, you mention crop yields. This is very simplistic and the studies are of course done by proper experts in agriculture, but,
Let’s say it takes for fields to feed a set of human meat eaters.
Now it takes one field to feed a the same group of human vegans.
I now have 3 fields to play with. I don’t need to maintain the level of yield in that one field.
I can start to think about how best to use those fields, to produce food for the human vegans.
That may include dropping yield in one field and using more organic methods, and using say 1.7 fields.
But that is my very simple example of what the studies go into, please don’t take my example as definitive, and I don’t have the links to hand sorry, but they aren’t difficult to Google. | | | |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 13:44 - Feb 17 with 1240 views | WeWereZombies |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 13:23 - Feb 17 by jonbull88 |
The main issue I have regarding the 75% less land required to grow food. This is such a false number plucked out of the sky it is a joke. For a start not all land is suited to growing everything. For example around 40% of the uk is grassland. Secondly with the move away from fossil fuels, muck produced by animals will help keep crop yields high. Without fertiliser crop yields will plummet within a few years, which will reduce the efficiency of the land being used, meaning more land will be required. The third issue that will occur is what to do with waste crops? Not everything grown makes the grade, this currently goes through an animal. What do we do with it, go back to the old days of tipping it in land fill or out at sea? |
Plus you just know that plant based 'alternatives' are going to be taken up big time by intensive farming conglomerates and all the bad old ways of food with additives to help package the goods, bulk up volumes so that less nutritional food can be sold in greater quantities (with bogus claims about the health benefits that only apply to a small percentage of the over packaged product.)
I do not see how any of this supermarket and Amazon supply chain encouragement of factory farming is addressing the Holocene Extinction and the imbalance of our relationship to nature. There are a few worthy vegans but most converts now are being stitched up like kippers. |  |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 13:54 - Feb 17 with 1233 views | J2BLUE |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 13:44 - Feb 17 by WeWereZombies |
Plus you just know that plant based 'alternatives' are going to be taken up big time by intensive farming conglomerates and all the bad old ways of food with additives to help package the goods, bulk up volumes so that less nutritional food can be sold in greater quantities (with bogus claims about the health benefits that only apply to a small percentage of the over packaged product.)
I do not see how any of this supermarket and Amazon supply chain encouragement of factory farming is addressing the Holocene Extinction and the imbalance of our relationship to nature. There are a few worthy vegans but most converts now are being stitched up like kippers. |
I think you're both reaching now.
Thankfully there are some undeniable facts at the heart of all this. Saying people will be unhealthy on vegan alternatives is not much of an argument. You do not need to eat soy sausages to eat more plants. My cupboard is filled with beans, chickpeas and lentils. |  |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 14:16 - Feb 17 with 1216 views | WeWereZombies |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 13:54 - Feb 17 by J2BLUE |
I think you're both reaching now.
Thankfully there are some undeniable facts at the heart of all this. Saying people will be unhealthy on vegan alternatives is not much of an argument. You do not need to eat soy sausages to eat more plants. My cupboard is filled with beans, chickpeas and lentils. |
Tinned beans, chickpeas and lentils or dried? | |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 14:20 - Feb 17 with 1212 views | J2BLUE |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 14:16 - Feb 17 by WeWereZombies |
Tinned beans, chickpeas and lentils or dried? |
Both.
Why? | |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 14:22 - Feb 17 with 1208 views | WeWereZombies |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 14:20 - Feb 17 by J2BLUE |
Both.
Why? |
Oh, nothing really, just wanted to know which goes best with eggs... | |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 14:26 - Feb 17 with 1201 views | J2BLUE |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 14:22 - Feb 17 by WeWereZombies |
Oh, nothing really, just wanted to know which goes best with eggs... |
I don't really eat eggs anymore. Maybe 1 a fortnight on average. | |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 14:36 - Feb 17 with 1187 views | hoppy |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 13:44 - Feb 17 by WeWereZombies |
Plus you just know that plant based 'alternatives' are going to be taken up big time by intensive farming conglomerates and all the bad old ways of food with additives to help package the goods, bulk up volumes so that less nutritional food can be sold in greater quantities (with bogus claims about the health benefits that only apply to a small percentage of the over packaged product.)
I do not see how any of this supermarket and Amazon supply chain encouragement of factory farming is addressing the Holocene Extinction and the imbalance of our relationship to nature. There are a few worthy vegans but most converts now are being stitched up like kippers. |
Although, kippers are less likely to be on the menu, of course. |  |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 14:41 - Feb 17 with 1181 views | WeWereZombies |
I tried some of their stuff at FolkEast a few years ago (it was part of a presentation in the beer tent...) and it was OK but have never seen it in the shops. Plus I think the usual problem of how affordable it is to those on a low income. | |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 14:46 - Feb 17 with 1175 views | J2BLUE |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 14:41 - Feb 17 by WeWereZombies |
I tried some of their stuff at FolkEast a few years ago (it was part of a presentation in the beer tent...) and it was OK but have never seen it in the shops. Plus I think the usual problem of how affordable it is to those on a low income. |
You can find their snacks in most Co-ops. | |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 15:07 - Feb 17 with 1166 views | ElephantintheRoom |
I think you are on to a loser there as you have to deprive a calf of mum in the first place.
You could buy a smallholding and buy an in-calf cow and milk it by hand while the calf suckles on the other side... or think how less ethical it would be if there were no dairy cows at all.
Around here they make cheese from goats that are allowed to suckle their kiddies - which i guess is kind of aimed at the French version of the Guardian-reading market. But alas goats cheese isnt very nice in coffee | |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 15:26 - Feb 17 with 1145 views | Kropotkin123 |
I don't know, I haven't bought milk in years. I'm not vegan, I just don't like milk. Plenty of decent substitutes. Why dont you want substitutes? |  |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 15:34 - Feb 17 with 1139 views | Ryorry |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 12:39 - Feb 17 by chicoazul |
I think in general you’re right in your last line but as I’ve said, I already decided veganism is the right thing to do. I just don’t want to. I’ll happily explain why I don’t want to if anyone cares to ask, despite eireblue already labelling me “lazy” in a very bizarre leap. Sadly some people just can’t help themselves.
It’s much easier to make pasta with olive oil and steamed vegetables than duck confit believe you me. |
Go on then, why don't you want to?
(preferably without insulting most site posters, tia ðŸ‘) |  |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 16:02 - Feb 17 with 1122 views | chicoazul |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 13:15 - Feb 17 by eireblue |
Well sure, share. Lots of reasons people don’t go vegan, for instance, there is one poster that sometimes mentions their reason when posting on this topic. It is a very useful thing to consider.
It is something you could have done earlier, nobody is stopping you sharing anything you want to post.
And thanks for sharing and explaining to person that is a vegan, and also been a meat eater, that lives in a mixed household, the relative efforts of cooking said meals. |
Vegans. |  |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 16:24 - Feb 17 with 1084 views | eireblue |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 16:02 - Feb 17 by chicoazul |
Vegans. |
That doesn’t stop you adopting a plant based diet, you wouldn’t be a vegan, you don’t have to associate with other vegans, you don’t even have to tell people you are adopting a plant based diet.
Hmmmm, now I don’t wan’t to use the L word again.
I know you ascribe to being a conservative. Is that a defining characteristic of conservatism, identifying things that are absolutely ethically and morally correct, but then not doing them?
Just asking. Maybe there is a better word than the L word. | | | |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 16:56 - Feb 17 with 1067 views | jonbull88 |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 13:44 - Feb 17 by eireblue |
Most of those questions are addressed by the studies done by Oxford and Harvard, and the UN…..and others.
The one on how the U.K. could be food secure would definitely be helpful to have a look at. It considers exactly those questions. It does in fact give two proposals based on considering these factors.
If you start to take that figure at face value, or if you don’t want to do that, people can consider that a large percentage of arable land is used to grow animal feed.
That means there is a significant amount of land available, and with that you have more flexibility and things you can consider.
For instance, some no kill farms have animals. The value in the animal is not in it’s meat, but precisely as you described, helping with soil fertility.
As an example, you mention crop yields. This is very simplistic and the studies are of course done by proper experts in agriculture, but,
Let’s say it takes for fields to feed a set of human meat eaters.
Now it takes one field to feed a the same group of human vegans.
I now have 3 fields to play with. I don’t need to maintain the level of yield in that one field.
I can start to think about how best to use those fields, to produce food for the human vegans.
That may include dropping yield in one field and using more organic methods, and using say 1.7 fields.
But that is my very simple example of what the studies go into, please don’t take my example as definitive, and I don’t have the links to hand sorry, but they aren’t difficult to Google. |
I’m fortunate enough to be a partner in a mixed farming business, so find it easy to see one side of the argument. We have a unit for 2000 pigs a year. This unit provides us 1000t of muck every year, enough for about 50 acres, we farm over 2500 acres. The cost to scale that production up on a “no kill” just isn’t achievable.
When it comes to our biggest crop (winter wheat) we currently achieve yields of around 4t/acre, but to achieve this it gets a nice dose of nitrogen, remove this and we’d actually grow crops like Australia or the USA, with the vast areas it’s not cost effective or possible to add nitrogen to the whole area, so regularly only achieve 1t/acre max, there area makes up for the lower yields. Cut our yield from 4t to 2t say, suddenly you need double the area to grow the same crop.
You’ve then got the same problem of not every area lends itself to growing everything. For example, in mid Suffolk here we’d never dream of growing fruit or veg as the land isn’t right. And we don’t have enough area to grow veg as it is, which is why vast amounts get imported.
You also haven’t got an answer for wasted crops, due to drought or flood, or that just don’t make spec. I don’t know many farmers that grow wheat or barley for feed. Everyone puts the crop in for a market, feed is the last resort for a lot of people as there’s not much money in it. It is a long time between planting, harvesting and when the crop goes off farm, you’ve got to have a market to get rid of poor crops if the proposed market doesn’t want the crop by the end. | | | |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 17:01 - Feb 17 with 1062 views | Ryorry |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 16:56 - Feb 17 by jonbull88 |
I’m fortunate enough to be a partner in a mixed farming business, so find it easy to see one side of the argument. We have a unit for 2000 pigs a year. This unit provides us 1000t of muck every year, enough for about 50 acres, we farm over 2500 acres. The cost to scale that production up on a “no kill” just isn’t achievable.
When it comes to our biggest crop (winter wheat) we currently achieve yields of around 4t/acre, but to achieve this it gets a nice dose of nitrogen, remove this and we’d actually grow crops like Australia or the USA, with the vast areas it’s not cost effective or possible to add nitrogen to the whole area, so regularly only achieve 1t/acre max, there area makes up for the lower yields. Cut our yield from 4t to 2t say, suddenly you need double the area to grow the same crop.
You’ve then got the same problem of not every area lends itself to growing everything. For example, in mid Suffolk here we’d never dream of growing fruit or veg as the land isn’t right. And we don’t have enough area to grow veg as it is, which is why vast amounts get imported.
You also haven’t got an answer for wasted crops, due to drought or flood, or that just don’t make spec. I don’t know many farmers that grow wheat or barley for feed. Everyone puts the crop in for a market, feed is the last resort for a lot of people as there’s not much money in it. It is a long time between planting, harvesting and when the crop goes off farm, you’ve got to have a market to get rid of poor crops if the proposed market doesn’t want the crop by the end. |
Really interesting & useful (and first time I think on the forum) to have input from a working farmer with a large mixed farm, thanks 👠| |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 17:02 - Feb 17 with 1059 views | BiGDonnie |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 21:22 - Feb 16 by eireblue |
Interestingly, there was a chap on the radio taking about the best way for humans to live, in terms of climate change, is more compact, not more greener spaces.
But something you have to consider, surely, is the effect.
Wouldn’t it be nice if humans spread out more, changed their cities, and grew more stuff themselves.
Of course.
Isn’t that almost equally a bigger change than going vegan? Changing the layout of cities.
Also, people , generally, can’t raise their own cows.
But if a cow can be raised locally, maybe, so to can, plants.
You don’t have to convert or push a slant on anyone, you can just choose to vegan yourself, you don’t even have to be an advocate.
But thanks for the book recommendation, will give it a go.
Sorry, that reply was a bit bullet pointy, a bit tired now. |
Probably due to a lack of protein! |  |
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| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 17:04 - Feb 17 with 1051 views | eireblue |
| Can you actually buy ethical milk on 16:56 - Feb 17 by jonbull88 |
I’m fortunate enough to be a partner in a mixed farming business, so find it easy to see one side of the argument. We have a unit for 2000 pigs a year. This unit provides us 1000t of muck every year, enough for about 50 acres, we farm over 2500 acres. The cost to scale that production up on a “no kill” just isn’t achievable.
When it comes to our biggest crop (winter wheat) we currently achieve yields of around 4t/acre, but to achieve this it gets a nice dose of nitrogen, remove this and we’d actually grow crops like Australia or the USA, with the vast areas it’s not cost effective or possible to add nitrogen to the whole area, so regularly only achieve 1t/acre max, there area makes up for the lower yields. Cut our yield from 4t to 2t say, suddenly you need double the area to grow the same crop.
You’ve then got the same problem of not every area lends itself to growing everything. For example, in mid Suffolk here we’d never dream of growing fruit or veg as the land isn’t right. And we don’t have enough area to grow veg as it is, which is why vast amounts get imported.
You also haven’t got an answer for wasted crops, due to drought or flood, or that just don’t make spec. I don’t know many farmers that grow wheat or barley for feed. Everyone puts the crop in for a market, feed is the last resort for a lot of people as there’s not much money in it. It is a long time between planting, harvesting and when the crop goes off farm, you’ve got to have a market to get rid of poor crops if the proposed market doesn’t want the crop by the end. |
As I said, I am not the expert, hence suggesting that it maybe better to looking at the reports by people that look into this.
There are many different studies by many different organisations, that interestingly, are not reporting from a vegan viewpoint. They are from people concerned with, for example, how do we feed a planet of 10 Billion people, how do we reduce impact of farming on the climate, how do we manage sparse water resources.. | | | |
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