| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States 09:47 - Feb 25 with 2835 views | nodge_blue |
As these are NATO countries and we are committed to defend them, that would mean military action. But are we really prepared to do that? For all the reasons that we don't want to do it in Ukraine.
Its worrying stuff. Putin couldn't even wait till we'd got over Covid before dropping the next crisis. |  |
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| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 09:50 - Feb 25 with 2043 views | hype313 |
If Putin goes for a NATO country then we are well and truly all screwed, just hope that if he does have plans, some serious players within his cabal step and remove him. |  |
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| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 09:53 - Feb 25 with 2020 views | BloomBlue |
Yes we would as he won't stop there, he would be on the shores of the UK.
However at that point what would China do, would the red army go in with Russia that would be a different situation. |  | | |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 09:57 - Feb 25 with 1995 views | ZXBlue |
I think we would have no choice at that point. The moment you don;t the power of Nato is gone. |  | | |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 10:01 - Feb 25 with 1984 views | Guthrum |
Not defending Ukraine militarily was an option. With the Baltic States, it isn't, unless we want to see the end of NATO and possibly the EU as well.
There were other reasons why Ukraine was not being allowed into those clubs, as well as their already ongoing dispute with Russia. Political volatility, rampant corruption, shorter tradition of independent statehood within (near) modern borders. |  |
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| [Redacted] on 10:10 - Feb 25 with 1945 views | victorywilhappen |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 09:53 - Feb 25 by BloomBlue |
Yes we would as he won't stop there, he would be on the shores of the UK.
However at that point what would China do, would the red army go in with Russia that would be a different situation. |
[Redacted] |  | | |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 10:14 - Feb 25 with 1923 views | nodge_blue |
They have minority russian populations, not majority. And those are largely from the previous occupation. | |
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| [Redacted] on 10:16 - Feb 25 with 1904 views | victorywilhappen |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 10:14 - Feb 25 by nodge_blue |
They have minority russian populations, not majority. And those are largely from the previous occupation. |
[Redacted] | | | |
| [Redacted] on 10:17 - Feb 25 with 1889 views | victorywilhappen |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 10:14 - Feb 25 by nodge_blue |
They have minority russian populations, not majority. And those are largely from the previous occupation. |
[Redacted] | | | |
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| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 10:32 - Feb 25 with 1831 views | Bluetaff |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 09:57 - Feb 25 by ZXBlue |
I think we would have no choice at that point. The moment you don;t the power of Nato is gone. |
What makes you think the power of NATO has gone? It could be argued that the only reason Putin has made this move now is because Ukraine isn't part of NATO. |  |
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| [Redacted] on 10:36 - Feb 25 with 1801 views | victorywilhappen |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 10:32 - Feb 25 by Bluetaff |
What makes you think the power of NATO has gone? It could be argued that the only reason Putin has made this move now is because Ukraine isn't part of NATO. |
[Redacted] | | | |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 10:37 - Feb 25 with 1778 views | BlueNomad |
OP asked if we would be prepared to defend the Baltics. We were prepared to do so when they were admitted into NATO so our commitment hasn't changed. If it has then it says alot about us - none of it good! |  | | |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 10:41 - Feb 25 with 1761 views | Bluetaff |
Indeed, triggering article 5 would be a major problem for Putin which is evidence that the fact NATO are there at all is a positive for the nations within.
The long game, that has been running for a while though is purely down to individual nations and how they conduct their affairs - there is definitely more than one way to skin a cat and we as a nation have been undermined for years evidenced by the Brexit referendum and fallout. Putins action in Ukraine though have emboldened the message from NATO much more than he had bargained for.
The upside, as was seen in the US is that these don't have to be permanent! Trump was talking about bringing the US out of NATO which would have been disastrous | |
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| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 10:57 - Feb 25 with 1738 views | ZXBlue |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 10:32 - Feb 25 by Bluetaff |
What makes you think the power of NATO has gone? It could be argued that the only reason Putin has made this move now is because Ukraine isn't part of NATO. |
I think you have failed to properly read what I said. | | | |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 10:59 - Feb 25 with 1730 views | Bluetaff |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 10:57 - Feb 25 by ZXBlue |
I think you have failed to properly read what I said. |
You're exactly right - the problem of skim reading is that the context is missed!! | |
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| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 11:26 - Feb 25 with 1666 views | Keno |
They'll be no Tallin how that will work out!! |  |
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| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 11:32 - Feb 25 with 1646 views | Mullet |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 09:50 - Feb 25 by hype313 |
If Putin goes for a NATO country then we are well and truly all screwed, just hope that if he does have plans, some serious players within his cabal step and remove him. |
Not that I wish it for a moment, but I wonder how strong the risk of civil war erupting in Russia is if this drags on and doesn't go to plan? There ethnic groups that might see opportunities too which would really unleash havoc for everyone and not necessarily make things easy.
It did cross my mind this morning that for all the clumsy WW2 analogies, Ukraine might just be the first domino in years of sanctions and war which tos and fros. |  |
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| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 11:43 - Feb 25 with 1576 views | hype313 |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 11:32 - Feb 25 by Mullet |
Not that I wish it for a moment, but I wonder how strong the risk of civil war erupting in Russia is if this drags on and doesn't go to plan? There ethnic groups that might see opportunities too which would really unleash havoc for everyone and not necessarily make things easy.
It did cross my mind this morning that for all the clumsy WW2 analogies, Ukraine might just be the first domino in years of sanctions and war which tos and fros. |
Totally agree, I think this is the wish from various governments including ours, whilst unpalatable it may be, it might be the only way to remove Putin. | |
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| [Redacted] on 11:50 - Feb 25 with 1550 views | victorywilhappen |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 11:32 - Feb 25 by Mullet |
Not that I wish it for a moment, but I wonder how strong the risk of civil war erupting in Russia is if this drags on and doesn't go to plan? There ethnic groups that might see opportunities too which would really unleash havoc for everyone and not necessarily make things easy.
It did cross my mind this morning that for all the clumsy WW2 analogies, Ukraine might just be the first domino in years of sanctions and war which tos and fros. |
[Redacted] | | | |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 11:53 - Feb 25 with 1539 views | Vic |
I don’t have many friends in high places but I do have one who used to do stuff on Sky and the Beeb and lecture in Russian affairs at various high price education establishments. Has written books on Russian leaders from Stalin to Putin. His take on the situation is that Putin wants to demilitarise Ukraine as a country and then to split it up into a groups of small states (like Donetsk and Luhansk people’s republics) and so make the country more difficult to unite. He reckons that after this Ukraine will become part of the Russian Federation as will Belarus. All ruled from Moscow just as during the Soviet Union.
He doubts Putin will be able to pull it off and that he may well have over stretched himself, and he hopes it will end with the collapse of the Russian federation, as per the USSR in 1991. |  |
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| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 11:57 - Feb 25 with 1512 views | Churchman |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 10:32 - Feb 25 by Bluetaff |
What makes you think the power of NATO has gone? It could be argued that the only reason Putin has made this move now is because Ukraine isn't part of NATO. |
NATOs power was the US. The rest offer relatively little or nothing, bar a nuclear deterrent that will never be used. There is no way America is going to be interested in foreign adventures for a very long time after the Afghan disaster.
The Baltic states will be subjected to accusation, all the usual stuff from Russia before it’s people are ‘liberated’. All NATO will do is supply weapons and a few troops as advisors who will be pulled out if under threat. Technically, that is ‘assisting’. I just don’t think there is any appetite to defend countries that are within Russia’s geographical or cultural orbit, let alone risk armageddon, and all the treaties in the world won’t change it. Moldova, Serbia, Croatia etc and last but not least Poland are up for grabs.
Putin will stop where he wishes to, not where we wish him to. The response to this outrageous invasion has been if we are kind, fractured/limited and I can’t imagine Putin is not enjoying a hearty lunch at this very moment.
Solution? Firstly pray the man dies. Next, reduce economic dependence on Russia, lastly try to buy time to re-arm - and I know that won’t go down well on here. Sadly dictators know no other form of response - and it’s always the people that suffer. |  | | |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 12:11 - Feb 25 with 1470 views | nodge_blue |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 11:53 - Feb 25 by Vic |
I don’t have many friends in high places but I do have one who used to do stuff on Sky and the Beeb and lecture in Russian affairs at various high price education establishments. Has written books on Russian leaders from Stalin to Putin. His take on the situation is that Putin wants to demilitarise Ukraine as a country and then to split it up into a groups of small states (like Donetsk and Luhansk people’s republics) and so make the country more difficult to unite. He reckons that after this Ukraine will become part of the Russian Federation as will Belarus. All ruled from Moscow just as during the Soviet Union.
He doubts Putin will be able to pull it off and that he may well have over stretched himself, and he hopes it will end with the collapse of the Russian federation, as per the USSR in 1991. |
I think your first paragraph sounds highly plausible and likely.
Im not so sure about the second. I think Ukraine sounds very hard to defend unlike an Afganistan. It would also take a coup in Russia I think for Putin to go and that seems again unlikely from afar. He has an iron grip on it like all dictators do. Even Hitler and Stalin never fell to a coup. | |
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| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 12:14 - Feb 25 with 1455 views | Churchman |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 11:53 - Feb 25 by Vic |
I don’t have many friends in high places but I do have one who used to do stuff on Sky and the Beeb and lecture in Russian affairs at various high price education establishments. Has written books on Russian leaders from Stalin to Putin. His take on the situation is that Putin wants to demilitarise Ukraine as a country and then to split it up into a groups of small states (like Donetsk and Luhansk people’s republics) and so make the country more difficult to unite. He reckons that after this Ukraine will become part of the Russian Federation as will Belarus. All ruled from Moscow just as during the Soviet Union.
He doubts Putin will be able to pull it off and that he may well have over stretched himself, and he hopes it will end with the collapse of the Russian federation, as per the USSR in 1991. |
Ta for that, Vic. Really interesting. | | | |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 12:20 - Feb 25 with 1435 views | Vic |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 12:11 - Feb 25 by nodge_blue |
I think your first paragraph sounds highly plausible and likely.
Im not so sure about the second. I think Ukraine sounds very hard to defend unlike an Afganistan. It would also take a coup in Russia I think for Putin to go and that seems again unlikely from afar. He has an iron grip on it like all dictators do. Even Hitler and Stalin never fell to a coup. |
You could be right! I don’t think anyone can truly know how this will pan out. However, despite stockpiling finance for many years to minimise the effects of sanctions Russias economy is no bigger than Spains and will not be sustainable for very long. | |
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| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 12:29 - Feb 25 with 1403 views | istanblue |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 09:57 - Feb 25 by ZXBlue |
I think we would have no choice at that point. The moment you don;t the power of Nato is gone. |
Power of NATO died a long time ago with the likes of Libya, Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan. |  | | |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 12:38 - Feb 25 with 1367 views | Churchman |
| The question to ask now is about the Baltic States on 12:20 - Feb 25 by Vic |
You could be right! I don’t think anyone can truly know how this will pan out. However, despite stockpiling finance for many years to minimise the effects of sanctions Russias economy is no bigger than Spains and will not be sustainable for very long. |
Indeed they can’t. It’s all speculation.
One thing that’s always intrigued me is how hard it is to bump off a dictator. Gaddaffi, Ceausescu and Hussein might disagree on that, but it strikes me that too many lead long and happy lives.
Stalin did it by killing off anyone he didn’t like the look of and more besides. I saw a documentary once where about 1400 delegates were voting for him as party leader or something. A few abstained. Before you could say ‘what do you want for Christmas’ all 1400 were dead. He couldn’t be sure who the abstainers were.
Hitler did it by a personal army, police and getting all to swear personal allegiance. Add in a dollop of good luck (20 July plot) and there you go. [Post edited 26 Feb 2022 6:23]
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