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For the cretins defending him, claiming that he is not a treacherous self serving arshole, then explain his nonsense about Nato and the EU being responsible for Russia attacking Ukraine.
Ukraine is a sovereign state and should be free to do as it pleases, with regard to who it aligns with. Was that not what the Russians told Farage to say ?
Note how the righties are defending Putin. Trump, Fox News and Farage jumping now their paymaster has cracked the whip.
This latter day William Joyce told us Russia would not attack the Ukraine. Nato is not the EU, but it does not stop this traitor from speaking as if they were..
Farages sort were interned during WW2, and the French gave them and their kind short shrift after the war, as we did with Joyce, and Italy did with Mussolini.
That’s a start. With Iraq, you understand where something like Stop The War needs to turn the light towards our side and push for honesty and balance. I also remember how the anti-war movement was rejected on similar grounds at the time as if it was supporting Saddam Hussein.
But you confuse being against military interventions as being non-interventionist. That’s not the case. There are plenty of avenues to address issues and injustices – politically, legally and if need be economically. When a military response becomes the so-called failsafe and we quickly default to that, then that’s when the real problems and the dangers multiply.
It’s a mindset where we do end up selling arms to Saudi Arabia and training their pilots to drop bombs, hopefully on as few children as possible. Because we get there far too quickly rather than as the last resort.
What military Response?!
from what you're saying I don;t really understand how you'd go about ending this war - any chance of explaining where the west is going wrong?
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
Has she clarified since? She's had plenty of time and a strong platform to do so... Fair enough if she has.
I’m not sure. She was today asking for more parliamentary scrutiny and for us to be more generous in supporting refugees - hardly the words of a traitor. Her views in that video aren’t that rare - lots of people see problems with western military intervention in other countries’ affairs. They believe, with some justification, that it can cause more problems than it solves.
None of us new that Russia would definitely invade when that piece was recorded and that obviously changes everything. But what her current view is, I don’t know. If she now came out and criticised the US she could justifiably be criticised, but that tweet Glasser’s linked to is disingenuous by giving the impression that’s her view since the invasion. But it’s not.
I only asked you two questions mr - no point made.... (or any cheap dig for that matter)
Fair enough. It was more the exclamation mark as if you were making a point re: what I said about military response. I didn’t get it.
But to answer the bigger question: how do you resolve this situation? You don’t get into them and if you do, you de-escalate rapidly.
It’s like a night out in Glasgow or any English market town (this might be at least 10 years out of date). But you don’t avoid fights by standing up for yourself, it’s by recognising problems and defusing/avoiding them.
Do I think the UK, the US and NATO as a result has defused the situation surrounding Ukraine over the years? No. I think we’ve fuelled Putin and given him the threat he wants.
We should have been leveraging sanctions and financial threats years ago. But when the money was flowing we took it instead as well as the donors and dirty influence that brings.
I think our biggest problem is that we think we’re smarter and safer than we are. And that war is a far-off game. Unfortunately Putin also knows that’s how we think. So now he’s called our bluff on our doorstep and we don’t know what to do.
My guess is that he neutralises Ukraine somehow and then steps back. Suddenly we don’t know what game to play or why.
But these things are simple when you don’t play games. And instead treat war like the worst solution for ordinary people rather than a path to self-interest.
A lot of views towards Russia have changed in the last week, never mind two and a half.
Wales gains independence. 23 years later England annexes Flint and Denbigh. England demands assurances that Wales does not join the EU.
Those assurances aren’t given.
8 years later England mobilises their forces, stations 200,0000 troops along the England/Wales border and their tanks and missiles are pointed towards Swansea and Cardiff.
But hey, the claims that England are the aggressors should be treated with scepticism. Ok mate if you say so.
Wales gains independence. 23 years later England annexes Flint and Denbigh. England demands assurances that Wales does not join the EU.
Those assurances aren’t given.
8 years later England mobilises their forces, stations 200,0000 troops along the England/Wales border and their tanks and missiles are pointed towards Swansea and Cardiff.
But hey, the claims that England are the aggressors should be treated with scepticism. Ok mate if you say so.
[Post edited 28 Feb 2022 22:19]
Maybe in your mind but the EU isn’t a military force.
no, you're being unfair. nato and putin are both equally at fault. they are directly equivalent. dk focuses on nato because he is here in the uk, if he were in russia he'd be focusing on putin. he can't choose between the two because they are both equally to be blamed. countries like ukraine moving to democracy and looking to the west was an inexcusable provocation which is no better than (though because dk is a balanced person, no worse than) the russian invasion.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
no, you're being unfair. nato and putin are both equally at fault. they are directly equivalent. dk focuses on nato because he is here in the uk, if he were in russia he'd be focusing on putin. he can't choose between the two because they are both equally to be blamed. countries like ukraine moving to democracy and looking to the west was an inexcusable provocation which is no better than (though because dk is a balanced person, no worse than) the russian invasion.
When you have to make it up, you’ve pretty much sh@t the bed.
Trump’s a good case. He was an absolute weapon in many foreign policy respects but not perhaps the real destabilising danger of a Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz et al or even Obama’s strange strongman pivot.
But interesting to think what we’d have done if a country we understand with all its flaws and weaknesses was taken over by a megalomaniac narcissist with aggressive and militaristic expansion plans. Ultimately, I think we’d look to the US citizens themselves as the answer and try to sway them.
I don’t think there’s quite the same global connection or cut through in Russia but I think appealing to the Russian public and ultimately Putin’s support is the way to go. Posturing against Russia and answering power with power seems a retrograde step that plays into an old-school c@nt like Putin’s hands and on the level he’d like it to be. When there’s much more damage we can do with hearts and minds if we’re willing to set that higher, more peaceful and democratic standard.
trump worried me much more. for all bush/cheney's myriad flaws, they had powerful stabilising voices around them to talk them back from their worst inclinations.
trump fired all of his dissenting voices, i don't think appealing to his public would be possible or would dissuade him when he controls the media that they consume. ultimately it had to be the state in the form of lawyers, generals and business who ensured his coup failed.
peaceful protests against despots like putin/lukashenko rarely succeed as they can overwhelm them and control the narrative within the country.
I am thanks. Landed arguably my dream job about 6 weeks ago in the gambling industry so haven’t been to a Town game in a while.
Cheltenham in 2 weeks time so excited for that. As usual, we’ve an apartment booked for the week down there. It’s going to be great, especially with having no crowds last year meaning it’s 2 years built up almost.
I am thanks. Landed arguably my dream job about 6 weeks ago in the gambling industry so haven’t been to a Town game in a while.
Cheltenham in 2 weeks time so excited for that. As usual, we’ve an apartment booked for the week down there. It’s going to be great, especially with having no crowds last year meaning it’s 2 years built up almost.
Glad to here everything is going well for you mate. Don’t be a stranger on here.
I’m not sure. She was today asking for more parliamentary scrutiny and for us to be more generous in supporting refugees - hardly the words of a traitor. Her views in that video aren’t that rare - lots of people see problems with western military intervention in other countries’ affairs. They believe, with some justification, that it can cause more problems than it solves.
None of us new that Russia would definitely invade when that piece was recorded and that obviously changes everything. But what her current view is, I don’t know. If she now came out and criticised the US she could justifiably be criticised, but that tweet Glasser’s linked to is disingenuous by giving the impression that’s her view since the invasion. But it’s not.
[Post edited 28 Feb 2022 21:33]
But all this talk of NATO expansion hasn’t really happened in Putins timeline anyway so it’s just enabling him.
NATO have had a land border with Russia since 1949.
The last country to join NATO with a border to Russia was 18 years ago.
Notwithstanding those facts, these countries joined out of choice, not some imperialist NATO march to Russia border. They largely joined because they didn’t much enjoy decades of being killed, oppressed and impoverished by Russian occupation. So it’s also a little insensitive to suggest they have no right to join a defensive alliance.
Corbyn and Abbot hold dangerous views and would still support a policy of appeasement if Russain troops were closing around London. To deny it is to be blind to the truth
Agree. There's a number of great books about this mentality on the left, written by lefties
What's Left? by Nick Cohen Terrorism and Liberalism by Paul Berman
both written in the context of post 9-11 politics but apropos here too I think
Agree. There's a number of great books about this mentality on the left, written by lefties
What's Left? by Nick Cohen Terrorism and Liberalism by Paul Berman
both written in the context of post 9-11 politics but apropos here too I think
Highly debatable that either of those two are on the left. Although they both have a lot to say about the left they’ve pretty much been on a journey to the reactionary centre. Especially when it comes to foreign policy.
Owen Jones saw it as Starmer ‘purging the left’, bless him.
[Post edited 1 Mar 2022 7:30]
Am very left-leaning and often don't agree with what you post, but just wanted to say I completely agree with what you've posted on this thread - the STW statement effectively denied Ukraine's sovereign right to make it's own democratic decisions and defacto to exist as an independent democratic state - those MPs signing it should have been thrown out of the Labour movement, they shouldn't have been offered the chance to retract their support for Russian imperialism.
Attempts to blame NATO for the current situation (whether from the right or the left) bely a complete misunderstanding of recent history in Ukraine.
Would also recommend this brilliant documentary to anyone interested in recent Ukrainian history:
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