| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those 09:11 - Mar 3 with 6987 views | giant_stow |
On zero hour / gig contracts suffering from rising prices, sent from the tube drivers today. To go with their gratefully received message on Tues. And not forgetting their continuing weekend show of support - they're really on the side of the less well off and never miss a chance to show that. Thanks brothers. [Post edited 3 Mar 2022 9:16]
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 09:19 - Mar 4 with 636 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:45 - Mar 3 by homer_123 |
Just in the interests of balance. Zero Hour contracts are not 'bad' as such.
We work with a number of clients that use them for sections of their workforce but use them the way they were intended. In that it's a two way street, a partnership if you will - with clear, concise comms, good planning and both parties accepting the way in which they should be used.
Those on them can easily flex their hours and do so without any pressure or issues from the company and the company can flex their workforce depending on demand.
There, of course, is a flip side and I recognise that but that is typically more to do with how company use/ abuse them. Not with the principal of zero-hours. |
In theory it is true that it may suit both sides but in practice because the balance of power is so heavily in favour of the employer, is normally is a bad employee option. This type of 'deal' preys on the disadvantaged. The dole has a fixed income. |  | | |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 09:24 - Mar 4 with 626 views | Whos_blue |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 17:11 - Mar 3 by giant_stow |
I think you might be missing my point m'lover. Just because they can strike, doesn't mean they should strike now. I'm calling out their left-wing credentials as a sham: they hurt people less well off than themselves. |
I'm not quite sure I understand how we're defining "hurt" here.
If we extrapolate that, we can say that any strike will end up "hurting" someone at some point, even the slightest inconvenience, so in effect we're suggesting no one should ever withdraw their labour at any time? |  |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 09:26 - Mar 4 with 612 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 09:24 - Mar 4 by Whos_blue |
I'm not quite sure I understand how we're defining "hurt" here.
If we extrapolate that, we can say that any strike will end up "hurting" someone at some point, even the slightest inconvenience, so in effect we're suggesting no one should ever withdraw their labour at any time? |
What part of "now" are you struggling with? |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 09:33 - Mar 4 with 612 views | giant_stow |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 09:24 - Mar 4 by Whos_blue |
I'm not quite sure I understand how we're defining "hurt" here.
If we extrapolate that, we can say that any strike will end up "hurting" someone at some point, even the slightest inconvenience, so in effect we're suggesting no one should ever withdraw their labour at any time? |
it's a fair question, but I think I would have a problem with any strike which caused more harm to the victims of the striker, than possible upside to the strikes, as a starting point at least. It's an interesting ethics question if nothing else.
In this case, we have 3000 odd well paid and secure tube drivers' interests vs those of the 100s of thousands of commuters. Given many thousands of those commuters will be in less well paid insecure work, the calculation is clear to me, at least.
Anyone know if ASLEF was striking out of interest? [Post edited 4 Mar 2022 9:36]
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 09:36 - Mar 4 with 607 views | Cotty |
Industrial action is exactly the sort of thing that gets rid of dreadful working practices such as zero hours contracts. Maybe you'd be happy to give up all of the benefits that union efforts have provided you? 5 day week? Sick pay? Paid holiday? Cost of living pay increases? |  | | |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 09:43 - Mar 4 with 593 views | giant_stow |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 09:36 - Mar 4 by Cotty |
Industrial action is exactly the sort of thing that gets rid of dreadful working practices such as zero hours contracts. Maybe you'd be happy to give up all of the benefits that union efforts have provided you? 5 day week? Sick pay? Paid holiday? Cost of living pay increases? |
I think your post is unintentionally revealing tbh. For those on a salary, it seems almost impossible to imagine a world without 5 day weeks, sick pay, paid holiday or cost of living increases. For millions of others it's hard to imagine a world *with* those things. I certainly don't have any of those and as a small business owner, that's my choice, but others have no choice either because the need flexibility or because they simply can't get a salaried job in their profession.
Would you really blame the non-saleried for feeling pissed off at having their working lives fcked with like this by people in this position?
We can pretend that money is limitless and that everyone can be paid 80 grand a year if you like* or we can accept that if we want redistribution of wealth, that won't be easy if we give in to bods already paying high rate tax.
*what's gdp per capita these days in the UK?
Edit 2: a quick Google says it's $40,000. I'm no economist, and could be misunderstanding the figure, but to me that suggest paying everyone 80 grand a year is impossible, so as a leftie interested in redistribution of wealth, I'm afraid I do have a problem with high rate tax payers striking when they're already utterly secure with great conditions and a comfortable salary. [Post edited 4 Mar 2022 9:51]
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 09:44 - Mar 4 with 590 views | noggin |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 09:02 - Mar 4 by chicoazul |
The UK is one of the most heavily taxed nations in the world. University education is accessible to everyone. Parents can share 50 weeks of parental leave after having a baby. |
If you can't afford them, don't have them.
https://www.gov.uk/maternity-pay-leave/pay |  |
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 09:52 - Mar 4 with 581 views | Whos_blue |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 09:26 - Mar 4 by The_Flashing_Smile |
What part of "now" are you struggling with? |
My first ever down vote here.
Bless. | |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 09:56 - Mar 4 with 571 views | Whos_blue |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 09:33 - Mar 4 by giant_stow |
it's a fair question, but I think I would have a problem with any strike which caused more harm to the victims of the striker, than possible upside to the strikes, as a starting point at least. It's an interesting ethics question if nothing else.
In this case, we have 3000 odd well paid and secure tube drivers' interests vs those of the 100s of thousands of commuters. Given many thousands of those commuters will be in less well paid insecure work, the calculation is clear to me, at least.
Anyone know if ASLEF was striking out of interest? [Post edited 4 Mar 2022 9:36]
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Cheers for taking the time to reply Ulla.
We're not on the same page, but at least it's a reasoned and sensible response rather than the rather glib effort from Mr Smile. | |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:01 - Mar 4 with 549 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 09:56 - Mar 4 by Whos_blue |
Cheers for taking the time to reply Ulla.
We're not on the same page, but at least it's a reasoned and sensible response rather than the rather glib effort from Mr Smile. |
And this WASN'T a glib effort?! "My first ever down vote here. Bless." At least I made a point - that he was talking about 'now' specifically. You made no point at all.
Interesting that I'm merely defending Ulla but you come after me and try to make friends with him. How odd. Clearly someone I've crossed in the past with a changed name. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:11 - Mar 4 with 534 views | giant_stow |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:01 - Mar 4 by The_Flashing_Smile |
And this WASN'T a glib effort?! "My first ever down vote here. Bless." At least I made a point - that he was talking about 'now' specifically. You made no point at all.
Interesting that I'm merely defending Ulla but you come after me and try to make friends with him. How odd. Clearly someone I've crossed in the past with a changed name. |
I know we've disagreed on stuff previously Dolly, but appreciate your backup here more so as a result of that. | |
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:13 - Mar 4 with 525 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 09:02 - Mar 4 by chicoazul |
The UK is one of the most heavily taxed nations in the world. University education is accessible to everyone. Parents can share 50 weeks of parental leave after having a baby. |
Now that really isn’t true is it?
Putting aside the fudging over university and parental leave that isn’t the same thing at all, the UK is one of the least taxed countries in the world. And one of the lowest tax takes and spends as a percentage of GDP.
Certainly if we’re comparing like with like among developed and relatively diverse economies rather than putting us in a list with Ireland, the Cayman Islands and Monaco etc. |  |
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:19 - Mar 4 with 502 views | Cotty |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 09:43 - Mar 4 by giant_stow |
I think your post is unintentionally revealing tbh. For those on a salary, it seems almost impossible to imagine a world without 5 day weeks, sick pay, paid holiday or cost of living increases. For millions of others it's hard to imagine a world *with* those things. I certainly don't have any of those and as a small business owner, that's my choice, but others have no choice either because the need flexibility or because they simply can't get a salaried job in their profession.
Would you really blame the non-saleried for feeling pissed off at having their working lives fcked with like this by people in this position?
We can pretend that money is limitless and that everyone can be paid 80 grand a year if you like* or we can accept that if we want redistribution of wealth, that won't be easy if we give in to bods already paying high rate tax.
*what's gdp per capita these days in the UK?
Edit 2: a quick Google says it's $40,000. I'm no economist, and could be misunderstanding the figure, but to me that suggest paying everyone 80 grand a year is impossible, so as a leftie interested in redistribution of wealth, I'm afraid I do have a problem with high rate tax payers striking when they're already utterly secure with great conditions and a comfortable salary. [Post edited 4 Mar 2022 9:51]
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I take your point about the self employed. But every person should have the right to withdraw their labour if they deem it necessary. It would be difficult to describe yourself as leftwing if you disagree with that.
If every profession's union was as strong as the RMT, working conditions would be better across the board, and I doubt that zero hours contracts would be used in the often exploitative and precarious way that they currently are. I am obviously not suggesting for a moment that these strikes have anything to do with zero hour contracts. But I also don't think that there should be a salary threshold above which you are not deemed eligible to withdraw your labour. | | | |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:33 - Mar 4 with 488 views | giant_stow |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:19 - Mar 4 by Cotty |
I take your point about the self employed. But every person should have the right to withdraw their labour if they deem it necessary. It would be difficult to describe yourself as leftwing if you disagree with that.
If every profession's union was as strong as the RMT, working conditions would be better across the board, and I doubt that zero hours contracts would be used in the often exploitative and precarious way that they currently are. I am obviously not suggesting for a moment that these strikes have anything to do with zero hour contracts. But I also don't think that there should be a salary threshold above which you are not deemed eligible to withdraw your labour. |
I'm not saying they should be banned from withdrawing their labour (although I'll be honest and say the thought has a certain appeal) but I am saying that they're wrong to do so in this case. Just because you can strike doesn't mean you should and surely past some undefined point of comfort and good conditions, striking becomes extortion.
However, fair point on unions / conditions.
I also know that some will have chuckled to themselves at me describing myself as a leftie, but if nothing else, I'm to the left of of the RMT. [Post edited 4 Mar 2022 10:34]
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:42 - Mar 4 with 466 views | chicoazul |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 09:07 - Mar 4 by GlasgowBlue |
It’s not herbs. But it’s interesting that when certain posters are on a leave of absence, this particular specimen goes from serial downvoter to regular poster. |
Ahhhhh. I see! One of those guys. |  |
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:42 - Mar 4 with 458 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:19 - Mar 4 by Cotty |
I take your point about the self employed. But every person should have the right to withdraw their labour if they deem it necessary. It would be difficult to describe yourself as leftwing if you disagree with that.
If every profession's union was as strong as the RMT, working conditions would be better across the board, and I doubt that zero hours contracts would be used in the often exploitative and precarious way that they currently are. I am obviously not suggesting for a moment that these strikes have anything to do with zero hour contracts. But I also don't think that there should be a salary threshold above which you are not deemed eligible to withdraw your labour. |
Yes they should... but not time and time again like the RMT do.
And as I said above, the main reason they are strong is because they have London over a barrel. You wouldn't see half the strikes if there were a decent alternative. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:44 - Mar 4 with 457 views | chicoazul |
Just pointing out where you’re wrong that’s all. | |
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:46 - Mar 4 with 423 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:44 - Mar 4 by chicoazul |
Just pointing out where you’re wrong that’s all. |
You're always wrong Chickers. You're in no position to point out anyone being right or wrong. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:47 - Mar 4 with 425 views | chicoazul |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:13 - Mar 4 by Darth_Koont |
Now that really isn’t true is it?
Putting aside the fudging over university and parental leave that isn’t the same thing at all, the UK is one of the least taxed countries in the world. And one of the lowest tax takes and spends as a percentage of GDP.
Certainly if we’re comparing like with like among developed and relatively diverse economies rather than putting us in a list with Ireland, the Cayman Islands and Monaco etc. |
It’s all true.
Source on the tax thing; https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000zkzq
Information on shared parental leave and university access is all very easily found. You may not think it’s *enough* or *good* and that’s fine. I’m just pointing out where noggin is wrong. | |
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:50 - Mar 4 with 393 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:47 - Mar 4 by chicoazul |
It’s all true.
Source on the tax thing; https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000zkzq
Information on shared parental leave and university access is all very easily found. You may not think it’s *enough* or *good* and that’s fine. I’m just pointing out where noggin is wrong. |
If "University education is accessible to everyone" is easily found, you won't mind sharing it with us... | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:51 - Mar 4 with 396 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:47 - Mar 4 by chicoazul |
It’s all true.
Source on the tax thing; https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000zkzq
Information on shared parental leave and university access is all very easily found. You may not think it’s *enough* or *good* and that’s fine. I’m just pointing out where noggin is wrong. |
I’m not going through that now.
Just give me the stats behind the claim that the “UK is one of the most taxed in the world”.
Of course, noggin is talking about much more supported parental leave and university education to make it universal in a real sense where anyone can do it. That is certainly not the case in the UK. [Post edited 4 Mar 2022 10:52]
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:54 - Mar 4 with 373 views | noggin |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:44 - Mar 4 by chicoazul |
Just pointing out where you’re wrong that’s all. |
Of course you knew what I meant but you couldn't help yourself hey? | |
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:55 - Mar 4 with 364 views | chicoazul |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:51 - Mar 4 by Darth_Koont |
I’m not going through that now.
Just give me the stats behind the claim that the “UK is one of the most taxed in the world”.
Of course, noggin is talking about much more supported parental leave and university education to make it universal in a real sense where anyone can do it. That is certainly not the case in the UK. [Post edited 4 Mar 2022 10:52]
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Our tax to GDP share is higher than the OECD average. | |
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:59 - Mar 4 with 347 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:55 - Mar 4 by chicoazul |
Our tax to GDP share is higher than the OECD average. |
Yes. And at the very low end of developed and diverse economies like all our neighbours.
We are certainly not a high-tax nation in any relevant sense. And it’s a particularly dangerous insinuation given our already awful record on spending and investing in the country’s future and its people. | |
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| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:59 - Mar 4 with 340 views | leitrimblue |
| Another charming message of solidarity sent to those on 10:50 - Mar 4 by The_Flashing_Smile |
If "University education is accessible to everyone" is easily found, you won't mind sharing it with us... |
Guess it's cause he stated that it's accessible to everyone, not equally accessible to everyone. It probably is accessible to everyone in theory. It's just a lot easier if yer parents sent you to Eaton then if yer coming from other backgrounds where perhaps a university education isn't expected or the norm |  | | |
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