| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 22:54 - Mar 4 with 1126 views | Guthrum |
Anything UN would have to go through the Security Council - and get vetoed by Russia. The only reason there was a UN response to North Korea invading the South in 1950 was because the USSR happened to be boycotting the UN at the time, thus was not there to veto.
In the case of "people's convoys", the Russians would block them and shoot if ignored. Conscripts might not, but there are formations such as special forces and those having served in Syria who definitely would. |  |
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| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 23:04 - Mar 4 with 1111 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 22:54 - Mar 4 by Guthrum |
Anything UN would have to go through the Security Council - and get vetoed by Russia. The only reason there was a UN response to North Korea invading the South in 1950 was because the USSR happened to be boycotting the UN at the time, thus was not there to veto.
In the case of "people's convoys", the Russians would block them and shoot if ignored. Conscripts might not, but there are formations such as special forces and those having served in Syria who definitely would. |
I guessed that might be the case about a veto, the UN is pretty useless really when push comes to shove.
I'm not so sure Guthers. Putin may be a fruit cake but killing peaceful citizens in cold blood in full view would not end well for him. We need to go full Gandhi I think, although it is probably too late already. |  |
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| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 23:09 - Mar 4 with 1096 views | ZXBlue |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 23:04 - Mar 4 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I guessed that might be the case about a veto, the UN is pretty useless really when push comes to shove.
I'm not so sure Guthers. Putin may be a fruit cake but killing peaceful citizens in cold blood in full view would not end well for him. We need to go full Gandhi I think, although it is probably too late already. |
Why wouldnt it go well? What is anyone going to do? |  | | |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 23:13 - Mar 4 with 1091 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 23:09 - Mar 4 by ZXBlue |
Why wouldnt it go well? What is anyone going to do? |
Well I would like to think that the likely reaction of European states to their citizens being killed in cold blood might make him pause for thought.
Edit...I am thinking in terms of tens if not hundreds of thousands of people here. A proper mass action. [Post edited 4 Mar 2022 23:14]
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| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 23:33 - Mar 4 with 1038 views | Guthrum |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 23:04 - Mar 4 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I guessed that might be the case about a veto, the UN is pretty useless really when push comes to shove.
I'm not so sure Guthers. Putin may be a fruit cake but killing peaceful citizens in cold blood in full view would not end well for him. We need to go full Gandhi I think, although it is probably too late already. |
The big handicap of the UNSC is that the five Permanent Members all have a veto. So if one of them is directly involved in the wrongdoing (and present to vote), no motion can ever be passed.
Gandhi and many of his followers spent a lot of time in prison. Some were killed. As for Putin, who is going to bring him to book for any atrocities? | |
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| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 23:35 - Mar 4 with 1035 views | Guthrum |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 23:13 - Mar 4 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Well I would like to think that the likely reaction of European states to their citizens being killed in cold blood might make him pause for thought.
Edit...I am thinking in terms of tens if not hundreds of thousands of people here. A proper mass action. [Post edited 4 Mar 2022 23:14]
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What does he care about that? If nations threaten him, he threatens them with nuclear destruction - as he and Lavrov have done several times during this crisis. | |
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| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 23:44 - Mar 4 with 1028 views | Bent_double |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 23:33 - Mar 4 by Guthrum |
The big handicap of the UNSC is that the five Permanent Members all have a veto. So if one of them is directly involved in the wrongdoing (and present to vote), no motion can ever be passed.
Gandhi and many of his followers spent a lot of time in prison. Some were killed. As for Putin, who is going to bring him to book for any atrocities? |
There was an interesting point made on a program a few days ago, can't remember which one, but it was the USSR that was actually one of the permanent members of the UNSC, not Russia, they just sort of carried on the membership when the USSR broke-up.
It's not going to change anything now of course, clearly no-one even envisaged a future where one of the UNSC might be an aggressor and veto any attempts to resolve any issues. |  |
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| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 23:59 - Mar 4 with 994 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 23:35 - Mar 4 by Guthrum |
What does he care about that? If nations threaten him, he threatens them with nuclear destruction - as he and Lavrov have done several times during this crisis. |
By that rationale he won't stop after Ukraine. | |
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| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 00:19 - Mar 5 with 968 views | Guthrum |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 23:44 - Mar 4 by Bent_double |
There was an interesting point made on a program a few days ago, can't remember which one, but it was the USSR that was actually one of the permanent members of the UNSC, not Russia, they just sort of carried on the membership when the USSR broke-up.
It's not going to change anything now of course, clearly no-one even envisaged a future where one of the UNSC might be an aggressor and veto any attempts to resolve any issues. |
A few days ago some people were mooting an attempt to deprive Russia of their UNSC Permanent Seat, on the grounds it was never formally transferred from the USSR to the Russian Federation.
The only time anything remotely like that has been done was the transfer of the seat of the Republic of China (Taiwan) to the People's Republic of China. In that case, it was a matter of changing recognition of which former civil war faction actually represented "China", rather than removing a seat altogether. As a result, RoC was expelled from the UN altogether and remains so. Taiwan's independence is not recognised.
Formally expelling a member is tricky. It would probably have to go through the Security Council (and thus be vetoed), or at least need more than a straight majority in the General Assembly. Even if it were achieved, Russia would merely reject UN interference (even if it somehow wasn't vetoed by China) and fight anyone who tried to put peacekeepers in. | |
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| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 00:19 - Mar 5 with 964 views | Guthrum |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 23:59 - Mar 4 by BanksterDebtSlave |
By that rationale he won't stop after Ukraine. |
I don't believe he will, if he thinks he can get away with it. | |
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| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 00:42 - Mar 5 with 931 views | Churchman |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 23:59 - Mar 4 by BanksterDebtSlave |
By that rationale he won't stop after Ukraine. |
I think he will crack on after a short break to re supply and learn lessons. He will be much more efficient next time. Moldova. Not NATO, so same rules apply as Ukraine. Baltics - does anyone think that NATO would risk armageddon over them?
An alternative for Putin is after crushing Ukraine and eliminating opposition there, call a peace conference. Baltics, Poland, Czech Rep, Ukraine, Baltics, Belorussia all to be demilitarised. A buffer zone. Treaties and guarantees signed, gifts exchanged, hugs, peace in our time, bits of paper waved.
Boris would leap at the chance given how much trouble he could be in over laundromat London and his slice. Biden would welcome it too. Germany would not have to fulfil their 2% commitment to nato (doubt they’ll bother anyway), gas guaranteed, Macron will boost his image as the new Napoleon and the cheap energy will continue to flow through Nord 1 & 2. Everyone’s a winner. Everyone’s happy. Until Putin bloodlessly ‘rescues’ these counties from the Nazis.
Total fantasy and speculative nonsense on my part, but I can see something like this emerging once the rage subsides and Ukraine's dealt with and the voices of dissent liquidated in Ukraine or outside it. |  | | |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 01:12 - Mar 5 with 903 views | MVBlue |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 00:42 - Mar 5 by Churchman |
I think he will crack on after a short break to re supply and learn lessons. He will be much more efficient next time. Moldova. Not NATO, so same rules apply as Ukraine. Baltics - does anyone think that NATO would risk armageddon over them?
An alternative for Putin is after crushing Ukraine and eliminating opposition there, call a peace conference. Baltics, Poland, Czech Rep, Ukraine, Baltics, Belorussia all to be demilitarised. A buffer zone. Treaties and guarantees signed, gifts exchanged, hugs, peace in our time, bits of paper waved.
Boris would leap at the chance given how much trouble he could be in over laundromat London and his slice. Biden would welcome it too. Germany would not have to fulfil their 2% commitment to nato (doubt they’ll bother anyway), gas guaranteed, Macron will boost his image as the new Napoleon and the cheap energy will continue to flow through Nord 1 & 2. Everyone’s a winner. Everyone’s happy. Until Putin bloodlessly ‘rescues’ these counties from the Nazis.
Total fantasy and speculative nonsense on my part, but I can see something like this emerging once the rage subsides and Ukraine's dealt with and the voices of dissent liquidated in Ukraine or outside it. |
Pretty disgusting everyone just settles back with Russia running Ukraine and gas just starts up again. Can't see it. |  |
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| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 06:52 - Mar 5 with 789 views | Churchman |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 01:12 - Mar 5 by MVBlue |
Pretty disgusting everyone just settles back with Russia running Ukraine and gas just starts up again. Can't see it. |
I hope you are right. I’m getting ever more cynical as the years pass about rich and powerful peoples motives, sadly. | | | |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 07:21 - Mar 5 with 766 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 00:19 - Mar 5 by Guthrum |
I don't believe he will, if he thinks he can get away with it. |
Do you think he might risk a nato state?
Edit...ps. just been looking atva map.....
https://www.nato.int/nato-on-the-map/#lat=65.71801297765761&lon=16.455715393
...what's with that little bit of Russia on the coast between Lithuania and Poland? [Post edited 5 Mar 2022 7:26]
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| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 07:27 - Mar 5 with 754 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 06:52 - Mar 5 by Churchman |
I hope you are right. I’m getting ever more cynical as the years pass about rich and powerful peoples motives, sadly. |
What took you so long! | |
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| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 07:35 - Mar 5 with 731 views | Churchman |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 07:27 - Mar 5 by BanksterDebtSlave |
What took you so long! |
Naivety, ignorance, laziness on my part and lack of interest and understanding in people I have no connection with - like mega rich people | | | |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 07:55 - Mar 5 with 716 views | bluelagos |
What we are witnessing is ethnic cleansing. Scare the fck out of the civilian population, surround them, then offer them "safe passage" out of the area be that to the Western areas of Ukraine and/or over borders.
We are starting to see recognition of war crimes, not sure why the west is slow in calling this out this as what it is? |  |
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| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 08:28 - Mar 5 with 666 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 07:55 - Mar 5 by bluelagos |
What we are witnessing is ethnic cleansing. Scare the fck out of the civilian population, surround them, then offer them "safe passage" out of the area be that to the Western areas of Ukraine and/or over borders.
We are starting to see recognition of war crimes, not sure why the west is slow in calling this out this as what it is? |
The UN directive linked seems to provide the reasoning to intervene and establish secure zones within Ukraine. Not sure it would require the security council to sit? | |
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| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 09:21 - Mar 5 with 610 views | Guthrum |
The Kaliningrad Enclave.
At the end of WWII, there was a lot of border shifting. Poland lost a lot of territory in the east (what's now Belarus, with parts of Lithuania and Ukraine) to the USSR, but in return received Silesia, formerly German land east of the Oder River and most of East Prussia - except a small slice at the north-eastern end, containing the (utterly ruined) city of Koenigsberg.
From 1945 to 1991 this was a contiguous part of the USSR, renamed Kaliningrad. The former German city was filled with Russian settlers and turned into a strategic naval base. When Lithuania asserted its independence in the latter year, they did not get (or claim) Kaliningrad, which had never been part of that country.
The Russians were not keen to get rid, either, as it gave them a port on the open Baltic coast, much harder to blockade than Kronstadt, deep in the Gulf of Finland. Plus somewhere they could base medium-range missiles and still reach a lot of northern and central Europe. Also a back door into the Baltic States and Poland, if needed.
I don't think Putin will go after a NATO state militarily, he's too weak to win a war against the whole alliance. Unless he thinks he can break up or sufficiently weaken NATO (e.g. if a US president made noises about pulling out on some financial pretext, say). He may try to pressure some to go neutral, perhaps manipulate a pro-Russian government into power to hand him that.
But there are plenty of neutral targets for him to go after. Moldova, which already has a pro-Moscow enclave (Transdnistria). Finland, tho that's a much trickier prospect. | |
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| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 09:29 - Mar 5 with 587 views | NthQldITFC |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 00:19 - Mar 5 by Guthrum |
A few days ago some people were mooting an attempt to deprive Russia of their UNSC Permanent Seat, on the grounds it was never formally transferred from the USSR to the Russian Federation.
The only time anything remotely like that has been done was the transfer of the seat of the Republic of China (Taiwan) to the People's Republic of China. In that case, it was a matter of changing recognition of which former civil war faction actually represented "China", rather than removing a seat altogether. As a result, RoC was expelled from the UN altogether and remains so. Taiwan's independence is not recognised.
Formally expelling a member is tricky. It would probably have to go through the Security Council (and thus be vetoed), or at least need more than a straight majority in the General Assembly. Even if it were achieved, Russia would merely reject UN interference (even if it somehow wasn't vetoed by China) and fight anyone who tried to put peacekeepers in. |
Perhaps it is time for the abandonment of the UN and the rapid formation of a new and fundamentally democratic replacement, sans veto, and with voting strength related to population size?
All countries including Russia, North Korea etc., would be welcome and if you believe in the fundamental decency of humans, then unjust vetoes would just be not a thing. Maybe a two thirds majority would be enough to adopt motions?
I don't pretend any even modest expertise in this area, but it seems to me (as very much a layman) that when it has really mattered, the UN has been fkn useless and slower than frozen treacle to have any significant impact on any critical issue, climate change being the biggest case in point.
This may all be very naive, I appreciate. |  |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
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| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 09:29 - Mar 5 with 588 views | Guthrum |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 07:55 - Mar 5 by bluelagos |
What we are witnessing is ethnic cleansing. Scare the fck out of the civilian population, surround them, then offer them "safe passage" out of the area be that to the Western areas of Ukraine and/or over borders.
We are starting to see recognition of war crimes, not sure why the west is slow in calling this out this as what it is? |
Because it's a normal feature of major wars and is not being done on strictly ethnic lines. Russian-speaking civilians are being forced out as much as Ukrainian-speaking ones. Also, the Russians would prefer the population to stay and submit to rule from Moscow than fleeing.
Much like with the nuclear power station, the case against Russia is weakened by straying into hyperbole. It is already plenty strong enough - planning and carrying out a war of aggression against another state was enough to get people convicted at Nuremburg. | |
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| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 09:40 - Mar 5 with 574 views | Guthrum |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 09:29 - Mar 5 by NthQldITFC |
Perhaps it is time for the abandonment of the UN and the rapid formation of a new and fundamentally democratic replacement, sans veto, and with voting strength related to population size?
All countries including Russia, North Korea etc., would be welcome and if you believe in the fundamental decency of humans, then unjust vetoes would just be not a thing. Maybe a two thirds majority would be enough to adopt motions?
I don't pretend any even modest expertise in this area, but it seems to me (as very much a layman) that when it has really mattered, the UN has been fkn useless and slower than frozen treacle to have any significant impact on any critical issue, climate change being the biggest case in point.
This may all be very naive, I appreciate. |
It would be great, but Russia, China and the USA would refuse to join and it would have no strength.
What the UN has done very successfully is provided a forum where great powers can continue talking without resorting to war, helped suppress a lot of conflicts between minor powers and clamped down on human rights abuses. Plus all the stuff the organisation does with refugees, children, culture, health, etc.
Where the UN breaks down - as all diplomacy will - is when the ruler of a major power decides they are going to get what they want by whatever means, including violence. The Kaiser in 1914 seeking to humiliate Russia and France, Hitler's territorial ambitions in the late 1930s. No diplomacy on Earth was going to stop them (enough people tried). | |
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| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 09:47 - Mar 5 with 562 views | Guthrum |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 08:28 - Mar 5 by BanksterDebtSlave |
The UN directive linked seems to provide the reasoning to intervene and establish secure zones within Ukraine. Not sure it would require the security council to sit? |
Anything which involves the deployment of peacekeepers has to go through the UNSC. | |
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| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 09:49 - Mar 5 with 552 views | BloomBlue |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 00:42 - Mar 5 by Churchman |
I think he will crack on after a short break to re supply and learn lessons. He will be much more efficient next time. Moldova. Not NATO, so same rules apply as Ukraine. Baltics - does anyone think that NATO would risk armageddon over them?
An alternative for Putin is after crushing Ukraine and eliminating opposition there, call a peace conference. Baltics, Poland, Czech Rep, Ukraine, Baltics, Belorussia all to be demilitarised. A buffer zone. Treaties and guarantees signed, gifts exchanged, hugs, peace in our time, bits of paper waved.
Boris would leap at the chance given how much trouble he could be in over laundromat London and his slice. Biden would welcome it too. Germany would not have to fulfil their 2% commitment to nato (doubt they’ll bother anyway), gas guaranteed, Macron will boost his image as the new Napoleon and the cheap energy will continue to flow through Nord 1 & 2. Everyone’s a winner. Everyone’s happy. Until Putin bloodlessly ‘rescues’ these counties from the Nazis.
Total fantasy and speculative nonsense on my part, but I can see something like this emerging once the rage subsides and Ukraine's dealt with and the voices of dissent liquidated in Ukraine or outside it. |
To be fair Countries have been doing that for the last 30 years, bringing in Russia more to the global world with buying their gas/oil, building pipes across Europe to supply that and reduced spending on their military. But they've been hoodwinked by believing Russia has changed, and now we have a capital European city in 2022 being bombed.
The UN should do something but the veto voting system the UN has will stop that. |  | | |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 09:50 - Mar 5 with 547 views | bluelagos |
| Should the UN enforce protected zones in Ukraine? on 09:29 - Mar 5 by Guthrum |
Because it's a normal feature of major wars and is not being done on strictly ethnic lines. Russian-speaking civilians are being forced out as much as Ukrainian-speaking ones. Also, the Russians would prefer the population to stay and submit to rule from Moscow than fleeing.
Much like with the nuclear power station, the case against Russia is weakened by straying into hyperbole. It is already plenty strong enough - planning and carrying out a war of aggression against another state was enough to get people convicted at Nuremburg. |
I disagree with you Guthers.
I think we are witnessing the Russians attempt to split the country - so they can assimilate / take the Eastern portion and the remaining part stays as a Ukraine (of sorts), The East is where the majority of the industry lies plus it is ethnically more Russian that other parts.
To make that a success, then it would make sense for the Ukraine population to move westards out of the areas the Russians want.
And as you will be aware, the languages spoken by people in the area are by no means exact correlations with their ethnicity. Many Ukranians speak Russian and vice versa.
I think we are witnessing the start of ethnic cleansing of areas the Russians want - and the human escape routes facilitate that. Am not arguing against those safety routes - just pointing out my view that they assist in the future division of Ukraine. | |
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