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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine 12:38 - Mar 6 with 3621 viewspointofblue

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/06/the-more-ukraine-resists-t

For once I agree with the politicians, any sign of this will drag Europe into World War III. I don’t even know if NATO will have to implement it; the threat may be enough for Putin to respond.

No idea what the next step is though. We can close the sanction loopholes and accept the financial pain this will result in for ourselves and keep delivering military aid to Ukraine, which Russia seems to be turning a blind eye to for some reason, but will it be enough? And when will Putin decide to stop, if he does manage to turn Ukraine into a puppet state?

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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 12:40 - Mar 6 with 2008 viewsJ2BLUE

They have a good analyst on Sky who points out that you have to attack their anti aircraft weapons on the ground and shoot down Russian planes.

People seem to think we declare a no fly zone and Russia will say ok, fair play.

Truly impaired.
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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 12:45 - Mar 6 with 1980 viewspointofblue

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 12:40 - Mar 6 by J2BLUE

They have a good analyst on Sky who points out that you have to attack their anti aircraft weapons on the ground and shoot down Russian planes.

People seem to think we declare a no fly zone and Russia will say ok, fair play.


The columnist seems to think we’ll threaten Russia with a no fly zone and they’ll just accept it, which seems deluded.

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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 12:46 - Mar 6 with 1966 viewsPinewoodblue

A no fly zone over Ukraine before Russia invaded might have worked but it is probably too late now. The more Putin is cornered the more likely he is to strike out first.

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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 13:33 - Mar 6 with 1882 viewsGuthrum

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 12:40 - Mar 6 by J2BLUE

They have a good analyst on Sky who points out that you have to attack their anti aircraft weapons on the ground and shoot down Russian planes.

People seem to think we declare a no fly zone and Russia will say ok, fair play.


In any case, what the Ukrainians seem to be wanting is not truly a no-fly zone (which would also prevent them from using their own aircraft or drones), but a NATO air umbrella to prevent only the Russians from operating.

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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 13:40 - Mar 6 with 1837 viewsVic

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 13:33 - Mar 6 by Guthrum

In any case, what the Ukrainians seem to be wanting is not truly a no-fly zone (which would also prevent them from using their own aircraft or drones), but a NATO air umbrella to prevent only the Russians from operating.


Think I heard the idea mooted that we could let the Ukrainians fly their planes, or NATO planes from NATO countries?

That would be a good work around if possible - but rather think better minds than mine would have thought of it if it were possible!

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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 13:47 - Mar 6 with 1816 viewsGuthrum

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 13:40 - Mar 6 by Vic

Think I heard the idea mooted that we could let the Ukrainians fly their planes, or NATO planes from NATO countries?

That would be a good work around if possible - but rather think better minds than mine would have thought of it if it were possible!


Allowing Ukrainians to (openly) launch attacks from NATO territory/bases would make us active participants in the fighting with Russia. With all the consequences that entails.

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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 13:57 - Mar 6 with 1780 viewsDarth_Koont

It’s an opinion but thankfully wiser heads are so far unwilling to raise the military stakes.

There is no real NATO military solution from what I can see. Not an ultimately successful and peaceful one at least but one where the escalation and risks start getting out of anyone’s control. And even threats of a NFZ leave us making the first move.

We’ve cosied up to Putin in the wrong areas and at the wrong times over the years to suddenly be in a position of strength. We need to focus on de-escalation and a ceasefire as soon as possible – and then see where negotiation and a political settlement can take us.

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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 14:53 - Mar 6 with 1668 viewsgiant_stow

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 13:57 - Mar 6 by Darth_Koont

It’s an opinion but thankfully wiser heads are so far unwilling to raise the military stakes.

There is no real NATO military solution from what I can see. Not an ultimately successful and peaceful one at least but one where the escalation and risks start getting out of anyone’s control. And even threats of a NFZ leave us making the first move.

We’ve cosied up to Putin in the wrong areas and at the wrong times over the years to suddenly be in a position of strength. We need to focus on de-escalation and a ceasefire as soon as possible – and then see where negotiation and a political settlement can take us.


Personally, it seems none of the people advocating for no fly zones are willing to truly deal with what happens if they're wrong and WW3 does kick off as a result.

I think they also fail to recognise that Ukraine could well get the first nuking(s) and that instead of saving Ukrainian lives, this action might very well cost millions more.

I'm surprised by so many people being gung ho about this and forgetting just how high the stakes are. They may argue that Putin's bluffing, but then again, given his probably iffy health, what's he got to lose when he's clearly thinking of nobody but himself? Only his pride if he backs down and he appears to value that highly.

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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 14:59 - Mar 6 with 1649 viewsstrikalite

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 14:53 - Mar 6 by giant_stow

Personally, it seems none of the people advocating for no fly zones are willing to truly deal with what happens if they're wrong and WW3 does kick off as a result.

I think they also fail to recognise that Ukraine could well get the first nuking(s) and that instead of saving Ukrainian lives, this action might very well cost millions more.

I'm surprised by so many people being gung ho about this and forgetting just how high the stakes are. They may argue that Putin's bluffing, but then again, given his probably iffy health, what's he got to lose when he's clearly thinking of nobody but himself? Only his pride if he backs down and he appears to value that highly.


Doubt they'd nuke Ukraine with their own soldiers situated there...
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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 15:04 - Mar 6 with 1636 viewsNthsuffolkblue

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 14:59 - Mar 6 by strikalite

Doubt they'd nuke Ukraine with their own soldiers situated there...


I doubt their own soldiers would be the consideration ... and I think the risk is them nuking a nation that has become involved rather then Ukraine.

I don't think he is likely to go straight to nuking anywhere ... yet.

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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 15:22 - Mar 6 with 1619 viewsZXBlue

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 13:57 - Mar 6 by Darth_Koont

It’s an opinion but thankfully wiser heads are so far unwilling to raise the military stakes.

There is no real NATO military solution from what I can see. Not an ultimately successful and peaceful one at least but one where the escalation and risks start getting out of anyone’s control. And even threats of a NFZ leave us making the first move.

We’ve cosied up to Putin in the wrong areas and at the wrong times over the years to suddenly be in a position of strength. We need to focus on de-escalation and a ceasefire as soon as possible – and then see where negotiation and a political settlement can take us.


You cant de escalate with someone intent on conquest.
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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 15:52 - Mar 6 with 1590 viewsRyorry

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 12:40 - Mar 6 by J2BLUE

They have a good analyst on Sky who points out that you have to attack their anti aircraft weapons on the ground and shoot down Russian planes.

People seem to think we declare a no fly zone and Russia will say ok, fair play.


I know the BBC is a news org non-grata for most people these days, but they also said this at least 36 hours ago, if not earlier.

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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 15:55 - Mar 6 with 1582 viewsJ2BLUE

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 15:52 - Mar 6 by Ryorry

I know the BBC is a news org non-grata for most people these days, but they also said this at least 36 hours ago, if not earlier.


Yea, this guy was on Sky several days ago. I'm sure they all have similar people though. I really should support the BBC and watch their news channel instead of Sky as BBC are underappreciated and in danger.

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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 16:00 - Mar 6 with 1563 viewsBlueBadger

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 15:55 - Mar 6 by J2BLUE

Yea, this guy was on Sky several days ago. I'm sure they all have similar people though. I really should support the BBC and watch their news channel instead of Sky as BBC are underappreciated and in danger.


The beeb, like the EU, is something only an idiot would opt out of, for all its faults.

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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 16:04 - Mar 6 with 1551 viewsRyorry

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 15:55 - Mar 6 by J2BLUE

Yea, this guy was on Sky several days ago. I'm sure they all have similar people though. I really should support the BBC and watch their news channel instead of Sky as BBC are underappreciated and in danger.


Wasn't having a go, it was just when you said Sky had a good analyst, as tho the Beeb hasn't, I felt I should leap to their defence in the interests of fairness!

News (or at least the domestic politics side of things) is probably the Beeb's weakest link, but Clive Myrie & John Simpson are both out there & doing an impressive job - think it might have been one of them with the analysis.

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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 16:06 - Mar 6 with 1542 viewsDarth_Koont

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 15:22 - Mar 6 by ZXBlue

You cant de escalate with someone intent on conquest.


Yes you can.

You can always let Putin claim “victory” to avoid further escalation and bring about some form of ceasefire. Then get into the inevitable negotiation and settlement to remove ourselves – and the Ukrainian people most of all – from further and exponentially increasing catastrophe.

We’ve made so many mistakes with respect to Putin and also Ukraine over the years. Doubling down now that it’s reached this breaking point is utterly foolhardy and unimaginably dangerous for everyone.

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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 16:07 - Mar 6 with 1539 viewsRyorry

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 16:00 - Mar 6 by BlueBadger

The beeb, like the EU, is something only an idiot would opt out of, for all its faults.


I'd bet £100 to nothing that the majority of Ukrainians are glued to the BBC World Service as their main source of external reliable news.

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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 16:47 - Mar 6 with 1449 viewsreusersfreekicks

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 16:06 - Mar 6 by Darth_Koont

Yes you can.

You can always let Putin claim “victory” to avoid further escalation and bring about some form of ceasefire. Then get into the inevitable negotiation and settlement to remove ourselves – and the Ukrainian people most of all – from further and exponentially increasing catastrophe.

We’ve made so many mistakes with respect to Putin and also Ukraine over the years. Doubling down now that it’s reached this breaking point is utterly foolhardy and unimaginably dangerous for everyone.


Wouldn't that mean the end of Ukraine as a nation. Not sure that's palatable for Ukranians
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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 16:53 - Mar 6 with 1425 viewsZXBlue

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 16:06 - Mar 6 by Darth_Koont

Yes you can.

You can always let Putin claim “victory” to avoid further escalation and bring about some form of ceasefire. Then get into the inevitable negotiation and settlement to remove ourselves – and the Ukrainian people most of all – from further and exponentially increasing catastrophe.

We’ve made so many mistakes with respect to Putin and also Ukraine over the years. Doubling down now that it’s reached this breaking point is utterly foolhardy and unimaginably dangerous for everyone.


This is nonsense unless you are into appeasement, or if he is not genuinely intent on the objectives he appears to be.

The golden bridge is certainly something we should make available. However, if he is only interested in regaining full control over the former USSR then he would have no reason to take it.

I dont think we have made endless mistakes over Putin. The man is a megalomaniac dictator, not a rational world leader. He has decribed himself as a successor to Peter the Great ffs.
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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 16:54 - Mar 6 with 1422 viewsZXBlue

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 16:47 - Mar 6 by reusersfreekicks

Wouldn't that mean the end of Ukraine as a nation. Not sure that's palatable for Ukranians


Indeed. It means effectively handing over a free democratic nation to a dictoator / thug. Who will then be emboldened to move on to Moldova etc.
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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 16:54 - Mar 6 with 1420 viewsgiant_stow

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 14:59 - Mar 6 by strikalite

Doubt they'd nuke Ukraine with their own soldiers situated there...


Not sure that would stop Putin. There are now reports that he's firing unguided missles in the direction of a 2nd nuclear reactor, for instance: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-kharkiv-nuclear-reactor-r

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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 16:58 - Mar 6 with 1400 viewsZXBlue

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 16:54 - Mar 6 by giant_stow

Not sure that would stop Putin. There are now reports that he's firing unguided missles in the direction of a 2nd nuclear reactor, for instance: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-kharkiv-nuclear-reactor-r


What reason does he have NOT to nuke something if it will achieve what he wants?

The prospects of the west responding with nuclear barrage on Russian soil, to a couple of little tac nukes dropped in Poland, are small imo. Putin is quite capable of that gamble.
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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 17:00 - Mar 6 with 1396 viewspositivity

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 16:06 - Mar 6 by Darth_Koont

Yes you can.

You can always let Putin claim “victory” to avoid further escalation and bring about some form of ceasefire. Then get into the inevitable negotiation and settlement to remove ourselves – and the Ukrainian people most of all – from further and exponentially increasing catastrophe.

We’ve made so many mistakes with respect to Putin and also Ukraine over the years. Doubling down now that it’s reached this breaking point is utterly foolhardy and unimaginably dangerous for everyone.


what would you give putin as a victory?

all of ukraine?

half of ukraine?

a puppet government?

denying the will of the people by saying they can never join nato?

expel the baltic states, hungary and poland from nato?

not sure putin would agree to much less

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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 17:03 - Mar 6 with 1391 viewsgiant_stow

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 16:58 - Mar 6 by ZXBlue

What reason does he have NOT to nuke something if it will achieve what he wants?

The prospects of the west responding with nuclear barrage on Russian soil, to a couple of little tac nukes dropped in Poland, are small imo. Putin is quite capable of that gamble.


Agreed (for the little its worth!).

Does anyone remember that doc on bbc which was like war game around a possible nuclear war with Russia? It had real people who'd been on the fringes of such decisions. The escalation was increased up to the point in the game where Russians had fired a salvo of nukes at the UK - the UK war panel decided against a retaliatory strike as it was simply too late to save Britain and not worth ending the world over. I can't remember what it was called. Even if it was just a game/ excercise / tv show, I think it showed the sort of thinking that those in power might explore.

Edit: think was the show: https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/proginfo/2016/05/inside-the-war-room
[Post edited 6 Mar 2022 18:01]

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Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 17:36 - Mar 6 with 1306 viewsNthsuffolkblue

Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 16:06 - Mar 6 by Darth_Koont

Yes you can.

You can always let Putin claim “victory” to avoid further escalation and bring about some form of ceasefire. Then get into the inevitable negotiation and settlement to remove ourselves – and the Ukrainian people most of all – from further and exponentially increasing catastrophe.

We’ve made so many mistakes with respect to Putin and also Ukraine over the years. Doubling down now that it’s reached this breaking point is utterly foolhardy and unimaginably dangerous for everyone.


How do we declare a ceasefire in a war between Ukraine and Russia where Russian troops are inside Ukraine? Do we join the invasion in order to take control of Ukraine so that we can force them to surrender?

Currently we are doing our best to support Ukraine to defend themselves against the aggressor whilst not directly getting involved. We could withdraw that support in order to enable Russia to win the war more quickly but we can't declare a ceasefire in a war that we are not waging!

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