| I see Russia have at last suggested something 14:16 - Mar 7 with 8807 views | nodge_blue |
Maybe we are seeing that they are looking for a way out rather than total war.
Im not sure it will be acceptable to Ukraine though.
Russia has said that it can stop operations at "any moment" if Ukraine meets Russian conditions.
Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov says Ukraine must recognise Crimea as Russian, and Donetsk and Luhansk as independent states.
In addition to this, Peskov says Ukraine must amend its constitution and reject claims to enter any bloc (like Nato, for example).
He adds that Russia will finish the "demilitarisation" of Ukraine, and if these conditions are met Russian military action will "stop in a moment".
The Kremlin spokesman insists that Russia is not seeking to make any further territorial claims on Ukraine. |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:18 - Mar 7 with 4203 views | BlueNomad |
And which bit do you think is acceptable (particularly to Ukraine)? |  | | |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:20 - Mar 7 with 4185 views | Churchman |
Hitler said that when Czechoslovakia was sawn up and sold out by Chamberlain, Mussolini and the weedy french bloke Daladier in 1938. If anyone believes a word Putin says now I’d be amazed, especially Ukraine. [Post edited 7 Mar 2022 15:22]
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:21 - Mar 7 with 4177 views | nodge_blue |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:18 - Mar 7 by BlueNomad |
And which bit do you think is acceptable (particularly to Ukraine)? |
Im more pleased that finally Russia has suggested that its not total annihilation of Ukraine or Ukraine surrender. Its the first time in their play book of never offering any compromise that they have strayed.
Its not up to me to judge what Ukraine should find acceptable. [Post edited 7 Mar 2022 14:21]
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:22 - Mar 7 with 4161 views | Darth_Koont |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:18 - Mar 7 by BlueNomad |
And which bit do you think is acceptable (particularly to Ukraine)? |
None of it I’m sure. But they’ve also got a gun against their head.
And the Russians not going as far as overthrowing the government and installing a puppet regime is a good thing.
You could also argue that Ukraine have already effectively lost or are losing all 3 anyway (Crimea, eastern regions and NATO). In practice that’s what’s happened. |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:27 - Mar 7 with 4111 views | nodge_blue |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:22 - Mar 7 by Darth_Koont |
None of it I’m sure. But they’ve also got a gun against their head.
And the Russians not going as far as overthrowing the government and installing a puppet regime is a good thing.
You could also argue that Ukraine have already effectively lost or are losing all 3 anyway (Crimea, eastern regions and NATO). In practice that’s what’s happened. |
I watched YouTube video of the ex MI6 boss at Oxford University lecture. Filmed after the invasion. he said that we have to leave Putin an out and we cant trap him entirely.
Sadly I think he's right. Crimea is never going back into Ukrainian hands. They may have to accept some of this if they are to avoid a war that we cant join in with. | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:29 - Mar 7 with 4077 views | BlueNomad |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:22 - Mar 7 by Darth_Koont |
None of it I’m sure. But they’ve also got a gun against their head.
And the Russians not going as far as overthrowing the government and installing a puppet regime is a good thing.
You could also argue that Ukraine have already effectively lost or are losing all 3 anyway (Crimea, eastern regions and NATO). In practice that’s what’s happened. |
I think it has now gone too far for negotiation. Ukrainians would see their dead as completely wasted lives. I suspect Russia will win the invasion phase but will never hold Ukraine down and will suffer grievous economic damage. | | | |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:35 - Mar 7 with 4027 views | Darth_Koont |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:29 - Mar 7 by BlueNomad |
I think it has now gone too far for negotiation. Ukrainians would see their dead as completely wasted lives. I suspect Russia will win the invasion phase but will never hold Ukraine down and will suffer grievous economic damage. |
Then I hope calm heads prevail. This “offer”, however forced it would be to accept, looks an awful lot better than the likely alternative. | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:38 - Mar 7 with 4002 views | J2BLUE |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:35 - Mar 7 by Darth_Koont |
Then I hope calm heads prevail. This “offer”, however forced it would be to accept, looks an awful lot better than the likely alternative. |
Hard to argue with this. |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:39 - Mar 7 with 3992 views | Bent_double |
What if Ukraine agree to this, and Russian forces retreat to the eastern provinces? Vast amounts of Ukraines infrastructure has been destroyed, who's going to pay for that, it's going to cost tens of billions to rebuild?
Will Russia just give up all the territory they have captured along the Black Sea? If Odesa falls to the Russians, Ukraine effectively becomes a land-locked country.
Even if Ukraine agreed not to join NATO, would NATO not want to arm them to the teeth so they could defend themselves if/when the Russians invade again? |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:41 - Mar 7 with 3971 views | BlueNomad |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:39 - Mar 7 by Bent_double |
What if Ukraine agree to this, and Russian forces retreat to the eastern provinces? Vast amounts of Ukraines infrastructure has been destroyed, who's going to pay for that, it's going to cost tens of billions to rebuild?
Will Russia just give up all the territory they have captured along the Black Sea? If Odesa falls to the Russians, Ukraine effectively becomes a land-locked country.
Even if Ukraine agreed not to join NATO, would NATO not want to arm them to the teeth so they could defend themselves if/when the Russians invade again? |
You are right. I think the time for a negotiated peace has passed unless Zelinsky's government is replaced by Moscow-puppets who will never be able to sleep easy. | | | |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:42 - Mar 7 with 3962 views | tractorboy1978 |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:29 - Mar 7 by BlueNomad |
I think it has now gone too far for negotiation. Ukrainians would see their dead as completely wasted lives. I suspect Russia will win the invasion phase but will never hold Ukraine down and will suffer grievous economic damage. |
The alternative is more conflict and more wasted lives. I'd be sceptical of this 'deal' being genuine and Putin stopping there in the medium-long term, but as unpalatable as it is, Ukraine are going to have to make concessions to try and end this. |  | | |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:44 - Mar 7 with 3903 views | nodge_blue |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:39 - Mar 7 by Bent_double |
What if Ukraine agree to this, and Russian forces retreat to the eastern provinces? Vast amounts of Ukraines infrastructure has been destroyed, who's going to pay for that, it's going to cost tens of billions to rebuild?
Will Russia just give up all the territory they have captured along the Black Sea? If Odesa falls to the Russians, Ukraine effectively becomes a land-locked country.
Even if Ukraine agreed not to join NATO, would NATO not want to arm them to the teeth so they could defend themselves if/when the Russians invade again? |
All good questions.
I think Putin does realise now thats he miscalculated. Even though he may be able to level Ukraine, he knows that Russia will never be accepted back into the western world.
Hes at a point now where he finds an out and hopes that theres a readjustment back with the West. Or he never does.
Who knows what will happen. I suspect Ukraine could live with not joining NATO but will insist on joining the EU. | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:49 - Mar 7 with 3870 views | Kropotkin123 |
He also said he would have a ceasefire around Mariupol to allow civilians to leave... And then promptly shelled them.
How is this possibly in Ukraine's interest to give up their weapons to an invading force?
All it highlights to me is Russia is struggling military, in comparison to their objectives and expectations |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:00 - Mar 7 with 3807 views | clive_baker |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:39 - Mar 7 by Bent_double |
What if Ukraine agree to this, and Russian forces retreat to the eastern provinces? Vast amounts of Ukraines infrastructure has been destroyed, who's going to pay for that, it's going to cost tens of billions to rebuild?
Will Russia just give up all the territory they have captured along the Black Sea? If Odesa falls to the Russians, Ukraine effectively becomes a land-locked country.
Even if Ukraine agreed not to join NATO, would NATO not want to arm them to the teeth so they could defend themselves if/when the Russians invade again? |
Feels like a very handy excuse for Russia to justify bombing the sh1t out of Ukraine if their terms aren't met. |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:13 - Mar 7 with 3750 views | bluejacko |
As Putin ‘assured’ us for weeks he wasn’t going to invade what credibility can you give to a word he says? The idea of corridors to safety as long as they go to Russia or Belarus is just as daft! Get the families there and then threaten the men left behind with their safety.! | | | |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:13 - Mar 7 with 3749 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:44 - Mar 7 by nodge_blue |
All good questions.
I think Putin does realise now thats he miscalculated. Even though he may be able to level Ukraine, he knows that Russia will never be accepted back into the western world.
Hes at a point now where he finds an out and hopes that theres a readjustment back with the West. Or he never does.
Who knows what will happen. I suspect Ukraine could live with not joining NATO but will insist on joining the EU. |
He must by now see he has hugely miscalculated and that even if he installs a puppet government the Ukrainian people will not stand for it and he'll be constantly quelling unrest and fighting an ugly guerrilla war.
Most of the analysis I've seen suggests that taking the country is one thing but to actively occupy long term is stretching the Russinas too far.
The issue as I see it is he's too deep in now. He can't lose face, anything that can't be spun as having achieved his objectives ruins his image, so does he carry on and see or is there an out that can be presented in a way that works for Vlad? I think ego could be tbe biggest barrier to peace.
Still hope forces I'm the Kremlim are mustering
Sooner or later Ukraine will fall if another solution can't be reached but if it does the people there will still fight tooth and nail, will get very expensive for the Russians to keep that fight going |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:17 - Mar 7 with 3718 views | bluejacko |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:13 - Mar 7 by BlueandTruesince82 |
He must by now see he has hugely miscalculated and that even if he installs a puppet government the Ukrainian people will not stand for it and he'll be constantly quelling unrest and fighting an ugly guerrilla war.
Most of the analysis I've seen suggests that taking the country is one thing but to actively occupy long term is stretching the Russinas too far.
The issue as I see it is he's too deep in now. He can't lose face, anything that can't be spun as having achieved his objectives ruins his image, so does he carry on and see or is there an out that can be presented in a way that works for Vlad? I think ego could be tbe biggest barrier to peace.
Still hope forces I'm the Kremlim are mustering
Sooner or later Ukraine will fall if another solution can't be reached but if it does the people there will still fight tooth and nail, will get very expensive for the Russians to keep that fight going |
Too install a puppet govt he would need the cooperation of the Ukrainian security forces and that isn’t going to happen! He would need the vast bulk of his own army to TRY to install order. With all the militias now in the country it will be almost impossible I would guess. | | | |
| The problem is Russia has gone too far already.. on 15:18 - Mar 7 with 3724 views | unstableblue |
… they have gone into a European country, a country with deep historical and personal connections with Russia itself, and carried the kind of senseless bombardment that they meted out in Grozny and Allepo, they’ve just flattened cities and infrastructure with no thought for civilians. We’ll soon also get to 2million displaced refuges. Without doubt they’ve committed war crimes.
All the while they’ve lied to their own citizens, who are told that their army is only active in the disputed territories - which is a huge lie. Of note I suspect Russia is actually concerned on continuing to Kiev itself and the devastation caused to a city Russians feel real affinity with.
To give in to the demands you cite, gives Putin a victory, it would leave a legacy of a huge Russian military footprint inside Ukraine permanently, and critically mean that Ukraine remain defenceless to further attacks as and when Ukrainians speak out and show dissent to Moscow. Belarus uprisings we’re brutally put down to avoid a dissenting neighbour. That is why Putin is in Ukraine.
The West and c@nts like Farage, Trump and Hitchens need to wake up to the fact Putin hates the West and believes in a return to a greater Russia. He wrote a mein kampf lite about Ukraine and made it mandatory reading for his troops. Whilst he did not have a puppet in place leading Ukraine he was always going in.
So Zelensky has the awful dilemma of bowing to Putin and decades more pain, or losing even more civilians in the here and now. |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:24 - Mar 7 with 3635 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:17 - Mar 7 by bluejacko |
Too install a puppet govt he would need the cooperation of the Ukrainian security forces and that isn’t going to happen! He would need the vast bulk of his own army to TRY to install order. With all the militias now in the country it will be almost impossible I would guess. |
True but I do think that's still his aim. He wants someone that will do what he wants.
The worry is he's so jacked up on something that he still thinks the Ukrainian people will greet his army with floral garlands so keeps going but that delusionality may be his downfall | |
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| The problem is Russia has gone too far already.. on 15:25 - Mar 7 with 3631 views | hype313 |
| The problem is Russia has gone too far already.. on 15:18 - Mar 7 by unstableblue |
… they have gone into a European country, a country with deep historical and personal connections with Russia itself, and carried the kind of senseless bombardment that they meted out in Grozny and Allepo, they’ve just flattened cities and infrastructure with no thought for civilians. We’ll soon also get to 2million displaced refuges. Without doubt they’ve committed war crimes.
All the while they’ve lied to their own citizens, who are told that their army is only active in the disputed territories - which is a huge lie. Of note I suspect Russia is actually concerned on continuing to Kiev itself and the devastation caused to a city Russians feel real affinity with.
To give in to the demands you cite, gives Putin a victory, it would leave a legacy of a huge Russian military footprint inside Ukraine permanently, and critically mean that Ukraine remain defenceless to further attacks as and when Ukrainians speak out and show dissent to Moscow. Belarus uprisings we’re brutally put down to avoid a dissenting neighbour. That is why Putin is in Ukraine.
The West and c@nts like Farage, Trump and Hitchens need to wake up to the fact Putin hates the West and believes in a return to a greater Russia. He wrote a mein kampf lite about Ukraine and made it mandatory reading for his troops. Whilst he did not have a puppet in place leading Ukraine he was always going in.
So Zelensky has the awful dilemma of bowing to Putin and decades more pain, or losing even more civilians in the here and now. |
The Russians are clearly struggling militarily and the sanctions are starting to bite hard, Putin is trying to save face, but as you say, it's an awful dilemma. |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:36 - Mar 7 with 3553 views | homer_123 |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:22 - Mar 7 by Darth_Koont |
None of it I’m sure. But they’ve also got a gun against their head.
And the Russians not going as far as overthrowing the government and installing a puppet regime is a good thing.
You could also argue that Ukraine have already effectively lost or are losing all 3 anyway (Crimea, eastern regions and NATO). In practice that’s what’s happened. |
The issue here, as I see it, is what I posted days ago.
In short, Ukraine accept, fighting stops, Putin re-groups and goes again.
He cannot be trusted. |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 16:09 - Mar 7 with 3417 views | HARRY10 |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:20 - Mar 7 by Churchman |
Hitler said that when Czechoslovakia was sawn up and sold out by Chamberlain, Mussolini and the weedy french bloke Daladier in 1938. If anyone believes a word Putin says now I’d be amazed, especially Ukraine. [Post edited 7 Mar 2022 15:22]
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eh ?
It was a bit mote complicated than that. | | | |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 16:12 - Mar 7 with 3400 views | jeera |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 16:09 - Mar 7 by HARRY10 |
eh ?
It was a bit mote complicated than that. |
I don't think he was aiming for the full history lesson tbf.
I think he was just raising the point that the words of dictators can't be trusted. |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 16:19 - Mar 7 with 3377 views | BloomBlue |
But who would believe him?
Ukraine puts their weapons down and Putin will simply take over the country.
Also what does this really mean 'In addition to this, Peskov says Ukraine must amend its constitution and reject claims to enter any bloc'?
If they wanted to join a block like the EU is that saying they can never join the EU? |  | | |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 16:51 - Mar 7 with 3271 views | mikeybloo88 |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:35 - Mar 7 by Darth_Koont |
Then I hope calm heads prevail. This “offer”, however forced it would be to accept, looks an awful lot better than the likely alternative. |
I’m with you on this. Easy for everyone here to say Zelensky should stick two fingers up to any Russian offer but a good leader is not necessarily one who insists on fighting to the death. Hopefully Zelensky is a calm head and not one who wants a place in history. Surely better to try and save lives and have some sort of independent country to preside over than the alternative which he must realise will happen. It’s unpalatable for sure but got to be worth trying for a ceasefire and explore the options. |  | | |
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