| I see Russia have at last suggested something 14:16 - Mar 7 with 7632 views | nodge_blue |
Maybe we are seeing that they are looking for a way out rather than total war.
Im not sure it will be acceptable to Ukraine though.
Russia has said that it can stop operations at "any moment" if Ukraine meets Russian conditions.
Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov says Ukraine must recognise Crimea as Russian, and Donetsk and Luhansk as independent states.
In addition to this, Peskov says Ukraine must amend its constitution and reject claims to enter any bloc (like Nato, for example).
He adds that Russia will finish the "demilitarisation" of Ukraine, and if these conditions are met Russian military action will "stop in a moment".
The Kremlin spokesman insists that Russia is not seeking to make any further territorial claims on Ukraine. |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 16:58 - Mar 7 with 1631 views | GlasgowBlue |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:35 - Mar 7 by Darth_Koont |
Then I hope calm heads prevail. This “offer”, however forced it would be to accept, looks an awful lot better than the likely alternative. |
It's throwing Ukraine under the bus just so we can all sleep better at night. |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 17:01 - Mar 7 with 1624 views | HARRY10 |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 16:12 - Mar 7 by jeera |
I don't think he was aiming for the full history lesson tbf.
I think he was just raising the point that the words of dictators can't be trusted. |
By misrepresenting history ?
Has anyone bar Johnson, Farage, Trump etc said that Putin can be trusted ? |  | | |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 17:08 - Mar 7 with 1609 views | Darth_Koont |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 16:58 - Mar 7 by GlasgowBlue |
It's throwing Ukraine under the bus just so we can all sleep better at night. |
I think de-escalating and ending the fighting as quickly as possible is the best for the people of Ukraine.
In a continued attritional war they’ll get an even worse deal. The added risk of us all going up in a ball of light the longer this goes on is important but secondary to even that. |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 18:00 - Mar 7 with 1556 views | Guthrum |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 14:29 - Mar 7 by BlueNomad |
I think it has now gone too far for negotiation. Ukrainians would see their dead as completely wasted lives. I suspect Russia will win the invasion phase but will never hold Ukraine down and will suffer grievous economic damage. |
I'm not sure if Ukraine would see them as having died in vain if the fruits of Russia's invasion are reduced to essentially the status quo ante. Ukraine controlling no less territory and not being a member of NATO or the EU. A lot of Russian lives lost for, in practical terms, nothing.
The key thing will be how Moscow defines 'demilitarisation' and the extent of the lands in the east claimed to be independent - those previously held by the rebels, the entire administrative provinces, or a corridor along the Azov coast as well?
Depends what price the Ukrainians are prepared to pay for the killing and destruction to stop. Or what prospect they see for continuing to hold the Russians off in key sectors. |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 18:15 - Mar 7 with 1541 views | Guthrum |
One aspect to this we really know little about is the genuine state of Ukraine's defences and miltary. What regular units do they have left, or are they mostly down to militia? How are the latter doing in combat? They've been given lots of anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles, but what about rifle ammo, mortar bombs and artillery? What about food, fuel and other supplies?
How much longer can they hold out, realistically? | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 18:37 - Mar 7 with 1517 views | Guthrum |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 15:36 - Mar 7 by homer_123 |
The issue here, as I see it, is what I posted days ago.
In short, Ukraine accept, fighting stops, Putin re-groups and goes again.
He cannot be trusted. |
The dilemma being that if Ukraine does not accept, their country is devastated and subjugated, then Putin regroups and goes again, after Moldova, perhaps.
The other thing about Putin is the longer he has to wait, the greater the likelihood of him not being around any more, from natural causes. Who knows what happens after that? | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 20:45 - Mar 7 with 1450 views | jeera |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 17:01 - Mar 7 by HARRY10 |
By misrepresenting history ?
Has anyone bar Johnson, Farage, Trump etc said that Putin can be trusted ? |
He's clearly referring to this in the OP Harry:
"The Kremlin spokesman insists that Russia is not seeking to make any further territorial claims on Ukraine."
You cannot just respond to posts in isolation sans context. |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 20:59 - Mar 7 with 1435 views | Swansea_Blue |
There’s no chance the Ukrainians will trust Russia’s word even if he does suggest something they could live with (he hasn’t). Remember Russia promised to respect their sovereignty when they gave up nuclear weapons back in the 90s. They haven’t forgotten that betrayal.
I’d love Putin to be flattened by allied forces, but that’s probably not realistic or sensible. Maybe the answer is via the Russian people? Putin’s wrapped them up in a world of misinformation. Find a way of breaking that and turn enough of his people against him and you never know. He can’t lock up protestors indefinitely, he’ll run out of room and break the illusion he’s been weaving.
On this point, have people seen the press conference held by the 3 captured Russian policemen? Fascinating stuff assuming it’s true. Increasingly I’m thinking the information front is going to be the most important in all of this. [Post edited 7 Mar 2022 21:10]
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 21:15 - Mar 7 with 1423 views | jeera |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 20:59 - Mar 7 by Swansea_Blue |
There’s no chance the Ukrainians will trust Russia’s word even if he does suggest something they could live with (he hasn’t). Remember Russia promised to respect their sovereignty when they gave up nuclear weapons back in the 90s. They haven’t forgotten that betrayal.
I’d love Putin to be flattened by allied forces, but that’s probably not realistic or sensible. Maybe the answer is via the Russian people? Putin’s wrapped them up in a world of misinformation. Find a way of breaking that and turn enough of his people against him and you never know. He can’t lock up protestors indefinitely, he’ll run out of room and break the illusion he’s been weaving.
On this point, have people seen the press conference held by the 3 captured Russian policemen? Fascinating stuff assuming it’s true. Increasingly I’m thinking the information front is going to be the most important in all of this. [Post edited 7 Mar 2022 21:10]
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"Remember Russia promised to respect their sovereignty when they gave up nuclear weapons back in the 90s".
Mate, he assured the world publicly he wasn't going to invade Ukraine less than 3 weeks ago.
Everyone who has said he cannot be trusted on any level is right.
This has to be the beginning of the end for him, one way or another.
Even if, likely when, some appeasement is met, he cannot be allowed to get away with holding the planet to ransom on the threat of nuclear war.
It's insane if he isn't held in some way to account. You cannot just go around threatening to unleash nuclear war without consequences. | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 22:08 - Mar 7 with 1394 views | Kievthegreat |
Question for our policy makers across the West if Ukraine does agree to some sort of deal whereby Russia annexes more land (which make no mistakes, Donetsk and Luhansk represent), but especially if it tries to topple the regime, does the West maintain it's sanctions?
I would hope the last 2 weeks of fighting and the 2 months of lying (well more like 2 decades) from the Kremlin has strengthened the resolve of the West to stand firm and maintain sanctions so long as Russia occupies any part of Ukraine. |  | | |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 22:09 - Mar 7 with 1389 views | Guthrum |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 21:15 - Mar 7 by jeera |
"Remember Russia promised to respect their sovereignty when they gave up nuclear weapons back in the 90s".
Mate, he assured the world publicly he wasn't going to invade Ukraine less than 3 weeks ago.
Everyone who has said he cannot be trusted on any level is right.
This has to be the beginning of the end for him, one way or another.
Even if, likely when, some appeasement is met, he cannot be allowed to get away with holding the planet to ransom on the threat of nuclear war.
It's insane if he isn't held in some way to account. You cannot just go around threatening to unleash nuclear war without consequences. |
Problem is, in the cold light of reality, he is still President of Russia, a significant player on the world stage, particularly in energy exports. A nuclear-armed power with a large conventional military, too. He's not Robert Mugabe, who was unpleasant, but also largely irrelevant outside his own country.
We have no choice but to deal with Putin. Even trusting him, to an extent - such that the fighting can be ended, if the Ukrainians decide to sign an agreement. To be willing to talk to him if, say, a security or disarmament conference happens.
That's not to say he should be welcomed back into the fold with open arms and all sanctions lifted. Nor that we should cease trying to thwart his designs or to encourage those who might undermine and get rid of him. He won't have suddenly become cuddly and safe.
But there will need to be some degree of pragmatism, just for the world to function. There was even during the Cold War. | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 06:30 - Mar 8 with 1275 views | GlasgowBlue |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 16:58 - Mar 7 by GlasgowBlue |
It's throwing Ukraine under the bus just so we can all sleep better at night. |
Another hot take.
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 08:16 - Mar 8 with 1234 views | mikeybloo88 |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 06:30 - Mar 8 by GlasgowBlue |
Another hot take.
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We all know Putin is crazy, but it’s not unreasonable to keep checking as to how rational Zelensky and those around him might be...he’s under extreme pressure and sooner or later it might take its toll. Continually asking for a no fly zone he knows he won’t get is not productive and I wonder just how open he will ever be to any compromise proposals. I guess those with more intelligence on how the war is going will be judging how much help to give and what Ukraine’s next steps should be. |  | | |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 09:26 - Mar 8 with 1186 views | giant_stow |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 06:30 - Mar 8 by GlasgowBlue |
Another hot take.
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Apart from the arguments about Ukrainian agency and a bullying larger neighbour, this sort of thinking is so short-termist.
How does he think the Ukrainian people are likely to feel about that sort of peace? Does he think they'll just settle down and accept the whole episode as a bad month or two and crack on with paying fo rebuild their own country? or will they harbour a grudge for ever and always look for a chance for revenge? |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 09:35 - Mar 8 with 1178 views | Darth_Koont |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 06:30 - Mar 8 by GlasgowBlue |
Another hot take.
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It’s a valid point.
What’s your solution to avoid further death and destruction that appears not to lead to any particularly good or strategic outcome for the Ukrainians? And not that it matters as much, but for the Russians either.
And as I said earlier up, Ukraine has effectively lost Crimea, the Eastern regions and NATO anyway. Continued fighting risks a move towards occupying the country fully and overthrowing the government.
We need to get this into talks as quickly as we can, because that’s also where we can actually apply meaningful pressure and help. As we’ve proved, we can’t do that in the current military engagement. | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 10:05 - Mar 8 with 1139 views | GlasgowBlue |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 09:35 - Mar 8 by Darth_Koont |
It’s a valid point.
What’s your solution to avoid further death and destruction that appears not to lead to any particularly good or strategic outcome for the Ukrainians? And not that it matters as much, but for the Russians either.
And as I said earlier up, Ukraine has effectively lost Crimea, the Eastern regions and NATO anyway. Continued fighting risks a move towards occupying the country fully and overthrowing the government.
We need to get this into talks as quickly as we can, because that’s also where we can actually apply meaningful pressure and help. As we’ve proved, we can’t do that in the current military engagement. |
Zelensky didn't start the 'military engagement'.
Why should he be the one to put down his weapons? Why shouldn't NATO send weapons to a country that is being invaded and trying to defend itself? | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 10:12 - Mar 8 with 1131 views | Darth_Koont |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 10:05 - Mar 8 by GlasgowBlue |
Zelensky didn't start the 'military engagement'.
Why should he be the one to put down his weapons? Why shouldn't NATO send weapons to a country that is being invaded and trying to defend itself? |
So no solution but as long as we posture self-righteously enough?
Sounds about right. | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 10:25 - Mar 8 with 1087 views | giant_stow |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 10:12 - Mar 8 by Darth_Koont |
So no solution but as long as we posture self-righteously enough?
Sounds about right. |
Obviously this is a decision for the Ukrainian people, but are you not even a tiny bit worried about what sort of precedent this way out would set? Ie, might is right, confirmed | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 10:30 - Mar 8 with 1077 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 10:12 - Mar 8 by Darth_Koont |
So no solution but as long as we posture self-righteously enough?
Sounds about right. |
Not for us to say what Ukraine should do.
If you wanted a morally correct solution then Russia should withdraw its troops, detail the reparation it would be making to Ukraine, offer Putin and a number of other senior politicians over for war crimes trials then sit down at the UN and honestly debate what the issue is (the talk of "NATO expansionism" is, for me, the excuse rather than the reason).
There are, of course, a number of problems with this. |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 10:30 - Mar 8 with 1076 views | hype313 |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 10:25 - Mar 8 by giant_stow |
Obviously this is a decision for the Ukrainian people, but are you not even a tiny bit worried about what sort of precedent this way out would set? Ie, might is right, confirmed |
Saw this comment the other day and have to say, there is no ideal outcome but this is as best as it can get.
"Okay, Putin is bad... very very bad. We get it. We all agree.
There is now a genuine question of what Ukraine and the West would accept or want.
The temptation I've seen is to keep a foot on Putin's head until he stops squirming. Sounds nice. From an armchair far away. The only issue with that is the next 10-20-50? thousand that are killed to assuage our discontent at Putin and the 1m, 2m? 5m? who are made homeless and face terrorising trips into the abyss, potentially destabilising other parts of Europe. (And of course, at any moment, we are two steps away from a crisis 10-10,000 times greater so long as this continues).
Gordon Brown wants a Nuremburg rerun. As for me, I'd like a big pixie to appear above Putin and drown him in syrup. Seems we both want things that we won't get... So what can we get?
Putin has proposed terms for "peace". Trust him - of course not - but to build on the proposal, it is not a stretch that the war couldn't be ended by granting autonomy in the East and recognising Crimea, while protecting Ukraine with a UN peacekeeping force.
And then - the war really starts for the West: this is the 3-5 year plan to weaken Putin. Nobody says sanctions need to stop. Indeed they don't. Meanwhile, Russia must watch as their Ukranian neighbours become prosperous. The forces that pulled down the Berlin Wall were not rhetoric or ideology or mystical imperialist dreams, but basic envy that the East Germans felt toward the West for their prosperity, and the parallel resentment they felt towards their own leaders, whose oppressive system held them back and stopped them living the lives they otherwise could.
The long term win for the West is a more affable partner in Russia and a prosperous Ukraine. The West need to now look 5-10 years away, beyond Putin" |  |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 10:43 - Mar 8 with 1058 views | BloomBlue |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 09:35 - Mar 8 by Darth_Koont |
It’s a valid point.
What’s your solution to avoid further death and destruction that appears not to lead to any particularly good or strategic outcome for the Ukrainians? And not that it matters as much, but for the Russians either.
And as I said earlier up, Ukraine has effectively lost Crimea, the Eastern regions and NATO anyway. Continued fighting risks a move towards occupying the country fully and overthrowing the government.
We need to get this into talks as quickly as we can, because that’s also where we can actually apply meaningful pressure and help. As we’ve proved, we can’t do that in the current military engagement. |
But doesn't that run the danger of saying any country should give into the aggressor?
So if Putin wants a part of Poland and goes aggressive against them the world let's him have part of Poland, same with Finland, Moldova, Germany, etc etc just so we avoid war?
I find it amazing that people think Putin will just stop with Ukraine if he gets what he wants by being aggressive.
Also why shouldn't Ukraine in a democratic country have the right to choose if it wants to join the EU why should another country that's not part of the EU veto them even trying to join?
Finally if the Russians had said we will withdraw from Ukraine it might have had some value but they didn't they said we will stop. |  | | |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 10:46 - Mar 8 with 1050 views | GlasgowBlue |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 10:43 - Mar 8 by BloomBlue |
But doesn't that run the danger of saying any country should give into the aggressor?
So if Putin wants a part of Poland and goes aggressive against them the world let's him have part of Poland, same with Finland, Moldova, Germany, etc etc just so we avoid war?
I find it amazing that people think Putin will just stop with Ukraine if he gets what he wants by being aggressive.
Also why shouldn't Ukraine in a democratic country have the right to choose if it wants to join the EU why should another country that's not part of the EU veto them even trying to join?
Finally if the Russians had said we will withdraw from Ukraine it might have had some value but they didn't they said we will stop. |
What DK is suggesting is no different than the policy of appeasement that allowed Hitler to occupy the Sudetenland. | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 10:50 - Mar 8 with 1047 views | Darth_Koont |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 10:30 - Mar 8 by You_Bloo_Right |
Not for us to say what Ukraine should do.
If you wanted a morally correct solution then Russia should withdraw its troops, detail the reparation it would be making to Ukraine, offer Putin and a number of other senior politicians over for war crimes trials then sit down at the UN and honestly debate what the issue is (the talk of "NATO expansionism" is, for me, the excuse rather than the reason).
There are, of course, a number of problems with this. |
I think that is the mindset that got us here – and threw Ukraine under the bus in the first place.
We need to stop posturing about what is right from the more abstract ideas of national sovereignty etc. and end the fighting first and foremost. Then get to talking and trying to reduce the longer-term risks to the Ukrainian people themselves.
After all, what’s the solution or end-game with continued fighting and the death of thousands and thousands more Ukrainians? Wouldn’t surprise me if the best case for that looks similar to what the Russians are talking about now – only many thousands more will have died, a population will be traumatised, the violence will still continue on the fringes and the cycle continues. | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 10:55 - Mar 8 with 1034 views | Darth_Koont |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 10:46 - Mar 8 by GlasgowBlue |
What DK is suggesting is no different than the policy of appeasement that allowed Hitler to occupy the Sudetenland. |
Yawn.
A point you surely made when we let Putin get on with Chechnya or taking Crimea? ‘Course not, you’re as inconsistent as you are bluntly clueless. | |
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| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 11:02 - Mar 8 with 1020 views | BloomBlue |
| I see Russia have at last suggested something on 10:50 - Mar 8 by Darth_Koont |
I think that is the mindset that got us here – and threw Ukraine under the bus in the first place.
We need to stop posturing about what is right from the more abstract ideas of national sovereignty etc. and end the fighting first and foremost. Then get to talking and trying to reduce the longer-term risks to the Ukrainian people themselves.
After all, what’s the solution or end-game with continued fighting and the death of thousands and thousands more Ukrainians? Wouldn’t surprise me if the best case for that looks similar to what the Russians are talking about now – only many thousands more will have died, a population will be traumatised, the violence will still continue on the fringes and the cycle continues. |
But again where do you stop, Russia is the aggressor not Ukraine, For example if the Ukrainian people think joining the EU is best for them but Russia threatens them if they do attempt to join the EU do we simply say Ukraine isn't allowed to join the EU because Russia could start bombing them again? | | | |
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